Act Acting » Acting Agencies » On Respect

On Respect

Question:

"shinypenny" <shinypenny0…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:1101162260.090882.140950@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com… > I do think JWB has insecurities. If he didn’t, he would have already > started softening his approach with his wife, instead of waiting > stubbornly to see if she changes enough that he doesn’t have to. > JWB often seems to have to hold on a little too tight to his self. A > truly secure person doesn’t have to. They are more comfortable throwing > themselves out there, putting themselves on the line, taking emotional > risks.

hmmm… interesting. I don’t take many emotional risks because I sometimes feel I don’t have enough emotion to risk. I tend to look at things logically and practically. This makes me not the best person to comfort you when someone dies. I tend to say things like "we all die". This isn’t to say I haven’t cried when a loved one died – I did, and certainly will again. But I got it out, and then looked at the practical side of things. I have found I don’t grieve very long. At least for a shorter period than I see others grieve. I’m not sure if that’s bad or good. But I do like the way I am.

Response:

"shinypenny" <shinypenny0…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:1101162602.877873.231590@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> JWB wrote: >> translation: if you argue with me, you’re insecure. >> Sorry, but that’s what it is. >> Hence, it works reciprocally.  I am insecure in a >> > few areas of my life.  Yugh, that’s not something that I wanted to >> > admit today :-) >> That’s not really a surprise for those of us that have known you, > though. >> You have admitted to such many times. I don’t mean that in a "mean" > way. > Pssst… JWB, perhaps this is the perfect forum to start practicing > your soft approach, before testing it out at home with your wife? > Simply appending your blunt words with a disclaimer at the end – "I > don’t mean that in a mean way" – is not the greatest approach. > Try again? How else could you have gotten across your message to Caren?

I honestly don’t know. Maybe I would ask: "do you realize by saying that you grate on insecure people, you are unfairly labeling those, past and future, who disagree with you? It’s akin to me saying ‘everyone who thinks I’m too blunt is an idiot’." For the second one, perhaps I should have omitted the first sentence.

Response:

On 22 Nov 2004 11:13:44 -0800, MsLiz <care…@msn.com> wrote:

<Snip> > I’ve wondered this before and I wonder this again: Does this venue of > communicating give (some) people the right to be downright rude (ie. > Tony, when he doesn’t agree with someone) or is this how people act in > real life situations as well? Does Tony tell someone to fuck themself > at work if he disagrees with something?  If not, why is it okay to do > it in here? If it is only the way that people act online, what is the > deal with that?  Why not just act the way you would in real life?  Is a > monitor a wall of safety?  Is it a way to practice how you really want > to act?

I don’t discuss issues like this with people at work.  And secondly I wouldn’t socialize with someone like you.  I find your views regarding adoption and the rights of the unborn reprehensible.   When you are advocating killing our next generation for the convenience of individual women, I don’t worry too much about your feelings.  Sorry. The only reason I don’t simply killfile you and be done with is is that your statements regarding issues I believe are critical to the survival of our society are simply so wrong, they need to be addressed. -Tony PS: You want to be liked?  Stay away from the life threads. :P — "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it’s time to fertilize your lawn!" Want to jump start your marriage?  Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend. Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

Response:

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 17:45:28 -0500, JWB – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<jwb3333__remov…@excite.com> wrote: > "shinypenny" <shinypenny0…@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:1101162602.877873.231590@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com… >> JWB wrote: >>> translation: if you argue with me, you’re insecure. >>> Sorry, but that’s what it is. >>> Hence, it works reciprocally.  I am insecure in a >>> > few areas of my life.  Yugh, that’s not something that I wanted to >>> > admit today :-) >>> That’s not really a surprise for those of us that have known you, >> though. >>> You have admitted to such many times. I don’t mean that in a "mean" >> way. >> Pssst… JWB, perhaps this is the perfect forum to start practicing >> your soft approach, before testing it out at home with your wife? >> Simply appending your blunt words with a disclaimer at the end – "I >> don’t mean that in a mean way" – is not the greatest approach. >> Try again? How else could you have gotten across your message to Caren? > I honestly don’t know. Maybe I would ask: "do you realize by saying that you > grate on insecure people, you are unfairly labeling those, past and future, > who disagree with you? It’s akin to me saying ‘everyone who thinks I’m too > blunt is an idiot’." > For the second one, perhaps I should have omitted the first sentence.

I think the statement is more akin to "blaming the victim".  Like guys who hit their women and say: "I may have hit her, but she made me do it!". -Tony — "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it’s time to fertilize your lawn!" Want to jump start your marriage?  Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend. Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -JWB wrote: > "shinypenny" <shinypenny0…@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:1101162260.090882.140950@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com… > > I do think JWB has insecurities. If he didn’t, he would have already > > started softening his approach with his wife, instead of waiting > > stubbornly to see if she changes enough that he doesn’t have to. > > JWB often seems to have to hold on a little too tight to his self. A > > truly secure person doesn’t have to. They are more comfortable throwing > > themselves out there, putting themselves on the line, taking emotional > > risks. > hmmm… interesting. > I don’t take many emotional risks because I sometimes feel I don’t have > enough emotion to risk. I tend to look at things logically and practically. > This makes me not the best person to comfort you when someone dies. I tend > to say things like "we all die". > This isn’t to say I haven’t cried when a loved one died – I did, and > certainly will again. But I got it out, and then looked at the practical > side of things. I have found I don’t grieve very long. At least for a > shorter period than I see others grieve. > I’m not sure if that’s bad or good. But I do like the way I am.

I can see that about you. And I also like you the way you are. I do think you’re naturally the more unemotional, logical type. But that doesn’t make you incapable of greater emotion, no more than it makes me – naturally emotional person that I am – incapable of using a cool head from time to time. I think wisdom comes when one can determine when it is appropriate to take risks and develop the other side. I think that with that wisdom comes a more balanced personality. I don’t think someone like myself or Caren or anyone on this group should be the catalyst to ever make you cry or get emotional, but I would be concerned if your wife didn’t have that power over you. Of course you’d grieve if she died. But how about something a little less dire? Can you feel her anguish and hurt feelings when you are blunt with her, as you are here with Caren? Does it evoke an emotional response in you when you see that you hurt her (however unintentionally)? Or do you simply react with logic ("But that’s not what I said… you just interpreted it wrong.") jen

Response:

"MsLiz" <care…@msn.com> wrote in message

news:1101161086.881338.173520@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> shinypenny wrote: > > JWB wrote: > > > "MsLiz" <care…@msn.com> wrote in message > > > news:1101150824.556975.104020@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com… > > > > I’ve taken this from a different thread, which has lead me to > start > > a > > > > new thread.  Being the "non stop thinker" the gift giving thread > > really > > > > got me to thinking about why it bothered me so much when I was > > > > criticized by JWB.  I guess I"m being pretty ballsy by being as > > open > > > > with my feelings as I am about to, but here goes. > > > Believe me, you "take" it much harsher than it’s meant. > > > Any criticism seems to bother you. You have a bit of a martyr > complex > > > (imho). > > Ahem, if I may butt in here for a minute…. > > JWB, you have this habit of being really blunt. It’s the way you word > > things. I can see how others might bristle. > > But Caren, sometimes you, too, come across as blunt, just in a > > different way! I don’t think you see it in yourself. > That is something I will think about more before posting.  I appreciate > you telling me that because I don’t want to be known for being rude.

For both Caren and JWB – blunt is not the same as rude.  It is possible to be quite blunt without being rude.  OTOH, blunt is not always the most *effective* way to convey something.

Response:

MsLiz wrote: > I’ve taken this from a different thread, which has lead me to start a > new thread.  Being the "non stop thinker" the gift giving thread > really got me to thinking about why it bothered me so much when I was > criticized by JWB.  I guess I"m being pretty ballsy by being as open > with my feelings as I am about to, but here goes.

I think it reveals one of your vulnerabilities – or one I have perceived you have and that is that for some part of your life you haven’t been heard and it distresses you if someone doesn’t appear to understand where you are coming from. When JWB disagrees with you in his usual blunt (but endearing) fashion you see it as a rejection of you, rather than of your opinion. It’s as if you feel his choice of his own reality somehow lessens the reality or quality of your own position. Or, if not lessening it, it’s an attack on your position and then you become quite defensive in your need to protect yourself. > A few days ago, I wrote: >>> You know, the more I read threads, since the last few weeks or so, >>> the more I see incredible fundamental differences between some of us >>> posters.  I haven’t figured out if that’s a good thing or not.

I think it’s absolutely the best thing. It’s certainly what keeps me coming back to this medium. I adore the diversity – and really, from a world standard most of us are far more alike than we are different. > Perhaps I could have said that better.  While it’s easy to embrace > many of our differences, sometimes our differences turn into a > personal thing.  For instance, in many of the threads, it has turned > from me asking for opinions and sharing mine, into JWB for instance, > turning it into, not only don’t I agree with you, but I also think > you’re selfish for doing it that way.

Yeah but, that’s JWB. That’s how he expresses himself. If he was to temper his approach he’d be doing for some internal reason and not because it irritated anyone else. It’s part of what makes him an interesting and *real* human being. All of us have strengths and weaknesses and we react to others based on them. I see that as something to rejoice in and enjoy. >  If this is a forum for adults > to converse back and forth, I don’t understand why the advice or > different way of doing things, sometimes ends up with a judgement or > an assumption that A=B. I’m kind of thinking of the post on breast > cancer not being caused by abortions whereby the person who allegedly > proved this, made this kind of A=B.  Just as, if I choose to buy > someone a healthier version of something, that it equals thinking I’m > better rather than DIFFERENT.

Hmmmmm….. It sometimes comes across to me that you feel you know what is better for another person than the person himself.  I see that as different to holding an opposing view about a topic. > While all of us have many similarities, we also have differences.  I > think that most people who post in this NG are  smart.  I do see the > intelligence levels in different areas.  Some of the posts on science > or math issues simply send me immediately off to read another thread. > I have hated math my whole life and would do anything to avoid it.

lol We are *so* different. I tend to wander off when people start talking about the metaphysical and comtemplating their navels…. > Why is it viewed if I’m more interested (and fairly well educated) in > health food issues, or gift giving ideas, or issues regarding social > service agencies or whatever areas I’m fairly well versed in, as being > arrogant, or a know it all, or I think that my way is best?  Isn’t > this a forum in which we share what we know?  Isn’t this a forum in > which we share our feelings and thoughts and ideas and much of our > lives with each other?  I thought it was.  But what I’m seeing are > some who think that this is a free for all to say whatever they feel > like saying without any regard for feelings and it’s been bothering > me a little bit.

Yep, I know. Look,  I think you’re just going to have to accept that people aren’t always going to behave in usenet in the way they would in real life. That’s not to say this isn’t real it’s just that it’s stripped of most of the emotional subtext and interdependencies that we allow for in normal face-to-face life. That means that if someone wants to be unusually vehement <cough> in his use of language he knows it will have less impact than if he were to tell his MIL, say, what he really think of her. > I don’t know, perhaps it’s the naiive side of me that wants to live in > a world where people are kind, respectful and actually give a crap > about the people that they normally interact with.

It’s not naive but it is something you have little control over. The tone of this newgroup *is* respectful. It’s also compassionate, humorous, lighthearted, interested, helpful, clear eyed, pointed and diverse. Sometimes it gets bogged down in personality exchanges and sometimes people get irritated and angry. If we were all always on our best behaviour it would be dead boring and too sterile for my enjoyment. > I’ve wondered this before and I wonder this again: Does this venue of > communicating give (some) people the right to be downright rude (ie. > Tony, when he doesn’t agree with someone)

Yeah, but you’ve actually been very rude back to Tony on occasion! I’m not saying he didn’t deserve it because he almost always does but we have to take responsibity for how we react to people and not put that back on the person who raised our ire. or is this how people act in > real life situations as well? Does Tony tell someone to fuck themself > at work if he disagrees with something?  If not, why is it okay to do > it in here? If it is only the way that people act online, what is the > deal with that?  Why not just act the way you would in real life?  Is > a monitor a wall of safety?  Is it a way to practice how you really > want to act?

I partially answered that further back. But yes, it’s a different medium, just as there are far more formal ways of communicating where emotions are totally irrelevant and inappropriate. It’s just plain-and-simple different from real life. There are significant overlaps but usenet has its own idiosyncracies that make it unique. You mentioned people feeling safe behind a monitor. I think that  is probably true in some ways but there’s also quite a lot that isn’t safe about usenet. You see it sometimes with people who are new and aren’t used to having their ideas challenged. For them this is a scary place to hang out and they either run away or start to examine their opinions and beliefs in the light of others’ and go on to learn something about themselves and their world. For me that is far more important than whether the people involved in the discussion are always polite or kind to each other. As long as they are more often than not, I’m happy enough. Tai

Response:

"Ellie" <ellie_fi…@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:xuuod.379$Iv7.334@fe12.lga… > JWB wrote: >> I’m not sure if that’s bad or good. But I do like the way I am. > From what I’ve observed, this, more than anything else, defines your > personality and the way you interact with others. You like yourself and > your life. I am impressed with you, and think that it is really wonderful > that you have strong confidence in yourself, have been able to reach > internal happiness, and *like* everything about your life.

Thanks! > Many people never reach this point regardless of how they objectively > live.

I agree. I see it all the time. I used to be one of them. > However, with this mind set comes a rather overblown sense of > self-confidence. You feel that you are the master of your universe and > have total control over your own destiny, and as a result you have no > sympathy for anyone who doesn’t seem to take charge of their own life, or > appear "weak" in your view.

This is something I have been trying to work on, because there’s two sides to that coin. Recently, a friend’s wife was killed in an auto accident. Mid 40’s, three kids, left for work one day, and never came home. In cases like this, we really don’t have any control, and some empathy is needed. But I do truly feel that many people are their own worst enemies. They make dumb choices, and never really have a plan. Most people go through life talking about what they are going to do "someday". Or they’ll say "when things get better"… well, without a plan, and action, things aren’t getting better. I’ll put it to you this way – if your job sucks, or if you have money problems, things will *never* change unless you change them yourself. Unless you hit the lottery, of course. Another side effect of this mind set is > that you often think of your views as the "truth". So when Caren gets > upset about you saying that charitable gifts are selfish, you think it’s > because she doesn’t want to hear the truth.

No – not so at all. The "truth" part of that whole thing was Caren claimed I said "putting yourself in a gift" was selfish. That wasn’t so – I never said that. She exaggerated it – THAT was the "truth" part (me pointing out she sometimes doesn’t read stuff and draws illogical conclusions). The part where i think giving a charitable gift borders on selfish – yea, that’s clearly opinion, not some ‘truth’. Evern your style of > communication is more reflective of how you think than "being blunt". > So, what do you think of my analysis? Is there any validity in what I say > or is it all a load of ****?!

Pretty decent. :)

Response:

JWB wrote: > translation: if you argue with me, you’re insecure. > Sorry, but that’s what it is. > Hence, it works reciprocally.  I am insecure in a > > few areas of my life.  Yugh, that’s not something that I wanted to > > admit today :-) > That’s not really a surprise for those of us that have known you, though. > You have admitted to such many times. I don’t mean that in a "mean"

way. Pssst… JWB, perhaps this is the perfect forum to start practicing your soft approach, before testing it out at home with your wife? Simply appending your blunt words with a disclaimer at the end – "I don’t mean that in a mean way" – is not the greatest approach. Try again? How else could you have gotten across your message to Caren? And Caren, I do think JWB has a valid point, but I personally cringed at the way he framed it and wouldn’t blame you for not wanting to give his message any due consideration whatsover. jen

Response:

"MsLiz" <care…@msn.com> wrote in message

news:1101164508.808130.228600@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> shinypenny wrote: >> JWB wrote: >> > translation: if you argue with me, you’re insecure. >> > Sorry, but that’s what it is. >> > Hence, it works reciprocally.  I am insecure in a >> > > few areas of my life.  Yugh, that’s not something that I wanted > to >> > > admit today :-) >> > That’s not really a surprise for those of us that have known you, >> though. >> > You have admitted to such many times. I don’t mean that in a "mean" >> way. > You want to know what is really bothering me right now?  I had so much > more to say to JWB’s response but I answered the phone looking at the > caller ID and thinking it was my husband but it WAS HIS MOTHER.  I got > totally off track and had some things that I was just getting warmed up > to say to him!!! >> Pssst… JWB, perhaps this is the perfect forum to start practicing >> your soft approach, before testing it out at home with your wife? >> Simply appending your blunt words with a disclaimer at the end – "I >> don’t mean that in a mean way" – is not the greatest approach. >> Try again? How else could you have gotten across your message to > Caren? >> And Caren, I do think JWB has a valid point, but I personally cringed >> at the way he framed it and wouldn’t blame you for not wanting to > give >> his message any due consideration whatsover. > Up until the points that I made, I was okay, then I read the rest and > honestly, started to get really pissed off.  I do not dislike people > who disagree with me!!!

who said you did?? In all honesty, that was one of my points. You really didn’t *read* what was written, and instead draw a conclusion that is way off the mark. Nobody said you didn’t like those who disagree with you. You *did* say: >I don’t think that I’m > obnoxiously rude or presumptuous but I do know that my manner does > grate on certain people.  More honestly, I think that I grate on people > who are insecure.

and I replied: > translation: if you argue with me, you’re insecure

Now, where do you get "you don’t like those who disagree with you" from that? Taking it further, yes, I was blunt, but you know, I do have a valid point. You have no business posting a thread on how certain people always seem to argue with you, then throw in "I seem to grate on these kinds of people" – that’s called taking shots at your so-called opponents. And you know, this is the second thread you started to kinda clarify all this crap. Get over it. ;)

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -shinypenny wrote: > JWB wrote: > > translation: if you argue with me, you’re insecure. > > Sorry, but that’s what it is. > > Hence, it works reciprocally.  I am insecure in a > > > few areas of my life.  Yugh, that’s not something that I wanted to > > > admit today :-) > > That’s not really a surprise for those of us that have known you, > though. > > You have admitted to such many times. I don’t mean that in a "mean" > way.

You want to know what is really bothering me right now?  I had so much more to say to JWB’s response but I answered the phone looking at the caller ID and thinking it was my husband but it WAS HIS MOTHER.  I got totally off track and had some things that I was just getting warmed up to say to him!!! > Pssst… JWB, perhaps this is the perfect forum to start practicing > your soft approach, before testing it out at home with your wife? > Simply appending your blunt words with a disclaimer at the end – "I > don’t mean that in a mean way" – is not the greatest approach. > Try again? How else could you have gotten across your message to Caren? > And Caren, I do think JWB has a valid point, but I personally cringed > at the way he framed it and wouldn’t blame you for not wanting to give > his message any due consideration whatsover.

Up until the points that I made, I was okay, then I read the rest and honestly, started to get really pissed off.  I do not dislike people who disagree with me!!!  It’s the way it is said that grates on my nerves like chalk on a blackboard.  If I feel like it later, I might sit down and read what he wrote and see if it still makes me mad. Right now all I can think about is my mother in law that just told me that at age 2, her son (my darling husband who does NOTHING In the kitchen) was so independent that at age 2, he used to wake up, go fix a bowl of cheerios and watch captain kangaroo without waking her up.  She has told this story at least 10 times and my husband and I laugh each time.  When she told it today, I started to laugh on the phone and just kind of made a joke about it.  Sometimes when my husband is in a joking mood, he’ll say, You know, when I was two, I was making 3 egg omelets while my mom was asleep and then I’d bake the bread.  Can you imagine a 2 year old fixing breakfast???  My neighbor is 3 and if his mothe left any of the cabinets open, he’d have a field day, taking everything out and stacking it (cause I let him do it at my house :-) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> jen

Response:

"MsLiz" <care…@msn.com> wrote in message

news:1101150824.556975.104020@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com… > I’ve taken this from a different thread, which has lead me to start a > new thread.  Being the "non stop thinker" the gift giving thread really > got me to thinking about why it bothered me so much when I was > criticized by JWB.  I guess I"m being pretty ballsy by being as open > with my feelings as I am about to, but here goes.

Believe me, you "take" it much harsher than it’s meant. Any criticism seems to bother you. You have a bit of a martyr complex (imho). My wife is somewhat the same way – for her, it stems from her childhood of constantly being criticized by her asshole parents (father, mostly). So I have had to learn how to deal with this, because any criticism sends her back to being 11 and being told by her father that she’s no good. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> A few days ago, I wrote: >> >You know, the more I read threads, since the last few weeks or so, > the >> >more I see incredible fundamental differences between some of us >> >posters.  I haven’t figured out if that’s a good thing or not. > Perhaps I could have said that better.  While it’s easy to embrace many > of our differences, sometimes our differences turn into a personal > thing.  For instance, in many of the threads, it has turned from me > asking for opinions and sharing mine, into JWB for instance, turning it > into, not only don’t I agree with you, but I also think you’re selfish > for doing it that way.

See, this is where you really tend to exaggerate things. First of all, I originally said the *charitable donation* borders on being selfish. This leaves room for many variables. You ignore that, and came up with:  "So I guess the synopsis so far is:  Doug and I feel as if you do put  something of yourself into a gift.  JWB and Tony think it’s selfish." I honestly don’t follow your logic. I gave *clear* examples of how I would "put myself into a gift". But as you admitted many times, you really don’t read that closely. That really doesn’t help you if you want to have an actual discussion, and frankly, makes you look a bit silly when you make comments like the above. If this is a forum for adults to converse back > and forth, I don’t understand why the advice or different way of doing > things, sometimes ends up with a judgement or an assumption that A=B.

And I just showed you how you do that. > I’m kind of thinking of the post on breast cancer not being caused by > abortions whereby the person who allegedly proved this, made this kind > of A=B.  Just as, if I choose to buy someone a healthier version of > something, that it equals thinking I’m better rather than DIFFERENT.

I do agree that it could be taken either way, depending on the situation. > While all of us have many similarities, we also have differences.  I > think that most people who post in this NG are  smart.  I do see the > intelligence levels in different areas.  Some of the posts on science > or math issues simply send me immediately off to read another thread. > I have hated math my whole life and would do anything to avoid it. > Same with science.  And a few other topics.  Does that mean that I see > those who know more in those areas as acting like they know it all? > That they are above it all?  That they think they’re better than I? > No, I see it as a fundamental difference which is not good or bad.  Or > as stated above…Smart in math=he thinks he’s better.  Rather than, > hmmmm, that person is really smart in math and I’m not.  Maybe I can > learn something from him.

well, you have to read the posts  to learn something. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Why is it viewed if I’m more interested (and fairly well educated) in > health food issues, or gift giving ideas, or issues regarding social > service agencies or whatever areas I’m fairly well versed in, as being > arrogant, or a know it all, or I think that my way is best? Isn’t this > a forum in which we share what we know?  Isn’t this a forum in which we > share our feelings and thoughts and ideas and much of our lives with > each other?  I thought it was.  But what I’m seeing are some who think > that this is a free for all to say whatever they feel like saying > without any regard for feelings and it’s been bothering me a little > bit. > I don’t know, perhaps it’s the naiive side of me that wants to live in > a world where people are kind, respectful and actually give a crap > about the people that they normally interact with.

Being kind and respectful includes reading the words before making an assumption and/or judgement. And you do not do this. Pot, meet kettle. > I’ve wondered this before and I wonder this again: Does this venue of > communicating give (some) people the right to be downright rude (ie. > Tony, when he doesn’t agree with someone) or is this how people act in > real life situations as well? Does Tony tell someone to fuck themself > at work if he disagrees with something?  If not, why is it okay to do > it in here? If it is only the way that people act online, what is the > deal with that?  Why not just act the way you would in real life?  Is a > monitor a wall of safety?  Is it a way to practice how you really want > to act?

I cannot speak for Tony, but in ‘real life’, I’m very much like I am here. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’ve always been interested in this small peice of internet world.  I > don’t really know anyone real life who talks to people so bluntly and > harshly.  That is not to say that I don’t know people who speak the > truth.  Someone can tell you something and it might hurt, but at least > it was said respectfully.  I think that Tracy is a perfect example of > someone who shares how she feels but does it respetfully and without > slamming someone or putting labels of judgement on that person.  That’s > how I try to conduct my life both online and offline.  But somehow or > other, a few folks on this newsgroup misinterpret what I’m saying and > turn it into  a personality judgement and I’m seriously wondering what > that is about. > Without a doubt, I that I often write posts in which my mind goes way > faster than my fingers or vice verse.  I just wonder why it is (and > seems like is happening more often) that it’s so easy to criticize > rather than ask a question to seek information before a judgement is > made.

But you yourself clearly do this *all the time* by not really reading the posts on topics you want to comment on.  I can certainly be accountable for when I act like a jerk and > have done so in the past and would not hesitate to do so in the > present.  I also wonder about this in face to face situations, about > issues in which peole’s buttons really get pushed at times and the > button pushee gets mad at what the original statement was and reacts to > it, rather than either asking questions or looking inward at their > response. > Do any of you reach a point where you simply stop reading certain > posters?

almost never. Do any of you ever decide to go to private email to work out > what you might view as a personal problem?  Thanks to anyone who > decides to respond to this post.

Once, with Orpheous. Because we had always gotten along, but once found ourselves on two opposing sides of an issue that got heated very quickly. We quickly "shook hands" via e-mail, and it was forgotten. > And today, none of my posts are showing up in this new Google Beta > thing.

will you just get a real newsreader :)

Response:

MsLiz wrote: > That is something I will think about more before posting.  I appreciate > you telling me that because I don’t want to be known for being rude. I > am like this in real life, I am brutally honest but try my best to be > honest without hurting someone.  I need to work on that too.  I don’t > mean to offend intentionally.

Oh, I never get the impression you were intending to be rude or offend. Not in the least. I don’t get the impression JWB intends to be, either. You’re both the "tell it like it is" types — you wear your heart on your sleeve, and JWB does too (just doesn’t come across that way as obviously). > To be honest with you I’m not blind to it.  I do know that when a > button of mine is pushed, I sometimes react to it.  Rather than kindly > asking the person what he/she meant by that.  I don’t think that I’m > obnoxiously rude or presumptuous but I do know that my manner does > grate on certain people.  More honestly, I think that I grate on people > who are insecure.  Hence, it works reciprocally.  I am insecure in a > few areas of my life.  Yugh, that’s not something that I wanted to > admit today :-)

Everyone has insecurities. If they don’t, they’re not all that interesting as people, IMO. I do think JWB has insecurities. If he didn’t, he would have already started softening his approach with his wife, instead of waiting stubbornly to see if she changes enough that he doesn’t have to. JWB often seems to have to hold on a little too tight to his self. A truly secure person doesn’t have to. They are more comfortable throwing themselves out there, putting themselves on the line, taking emotional risks. But, with that said, I have full faith JWB will evolve this direction. It doesn’t go past me that he has chosen for a life mate a woman who presses these particular buttons. That is probably the mission of their relationship: he learns to soften up, she learns to become more solidly centered and strong like JWB is. jen

Response:

"shinypenny" <shinypenny0…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:1101160977.482830.226420@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> JWB wrote: >> And yea, my bluntness is sometimes a problem for my wife, but she > does >> freely admit that’s it’s at least as much her fault as mine, as > usually I’m >> right about whatever it is I’m being blunt about. I could be a bit > softer >> with my observations, but she has realized she could really own up to > valid >> faults without shooting the messenger. > Okay, so your wife has realized her contribution to the equation; is > she making progress to do something about it?  If so, then you *really* > ought to meet her halfway, JWB, and soften up a bit. It’s only fair, > don’t you think? Besides, it isn’t going to kill you to soften up.

Oh, believe me, I have. If  I "need" (a bad word, really) to point out something I think she’ll take "bad", I do try to figure out how I’m going to approach the subject.

Response:

"MsLiz" <care…@msn.com> wrote in message

news:1101161086.881338.173520@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> shinypenny wrote: >> JWB wrote: >> > "MsLiz" <care…@msn.com> wrote in message >> > news:1101150824.556975.104020@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com… >> > > I’ve taken this from a different thread, which has lead me to > start >> a >> > > new thread.  Being the "non stop thinker" the gift giving thread >> really >> > > got me to thinking about why it bothered me so much when I was >> > > criticized by JWB.  I guess I"m being pretty ballsy by being as >> open >> > > with my feelings as I am about to, but here goes. >> > Believe me, you "take" it much harsher than it’s meant. >> > Any criticism seems to bother you. You have a bit of a martyr > complex >> > (imho). >> Ahem, if I may butt in here for a minute…. >> JWB, you have this habit of being really blunt. It’s the way you word >> things. I can see how others might bristle. >> But Caren, sometimes you, too, come across as blunt, just in a >> different way! I don’t think you see it in yourself. > That is something I will think about more before posting.  I appreciate > you telling me that because I don’t want to be known for being rude.

You are almost *never* rude. I – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> am like this in real life, I am brutally honest but try my best to be > honest without hurting someone.  I need to work on that too.  I don’t > mean to offend intentionally. >> IMO, JWB rubs you the wrong way because he reflects something about >> your own personality. The two of you, from my perspective, have way >> more similiarities than differences, you are both just stubbornly > blind >> to them. :-) > To be honest with you I’m not blind to it.  I do know that when a > button of mine is pushed, I sometimes react to it.  Rather than kindly > asking the person what he/she meant by that.  I don’t think that I’m > obnoxiously rude or presumptuous but I do know that my manner does > grate on certain people.  More honestly, I think that I grate on people > who are insecure.

translation: if you argue with me, you’re insecure. Sorry, but that’s what it is. Hence, it works reciprocally.  I am insecure in a > few areas of my life.  Yugh, that’s not something that I wanted to > admit today :-)

That’s not really a surprise for those of us that have known you, though. You have admitted to such many times. I don’t mean that in a "mean" way.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -shinypenny wrote: > JWB wrote: > > "MsLiz" <care…@msn.com> wrote in message > > news:1101150824.556975.104020@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com… > > > I’ve taken this from a different thread, which has lead me to start > a > > > new thread.  Being the "non stop thinker" the gift giving thread > really > > > got me to thinking about why it bothered me so much when I was > > > criticized by JWB.  I guess I"m being pretty ballsy by being as > open > > > with my feelings as I am about to, but here goes. > > Believe me, you "take" it much harsher than it’s meant. > > Any criticism seems to bother you. You have a bit of a martyr complex > > (imho). > Ahem, if I may butt in here for a minute…. > JWB, you have this habit of being really blunt. It’s the way you word > things. I can see how others might bristle. > But Caren, sometimes you, too, come across as blunt, just in a > different way! I don’t think you see it in yourself.

That is something I will think about more before posting.  I appreciate you telling me that because I don’t want to be known for being rude.  I am like this in real life, I am brutally honest but try my best to be honest without hurting someone.  I need to work on that too.  I don’t mean to offend intentionally. > IMO, JWB rubs you the wrong way because he reflects something about > your own personality. The two of you, from my perspective, have way > more similiarities than differences, you are both just stubbornly blind > to them. :-)

To be honest with you I’m not blind to it.  I do know that when a button of mine is pushed, I sometimes react to it.  Rather than kindly asking the person what he/she meant by that.  I don’t think that I’m obnoxiously rude or presumptuous but I do know that my manner does grate on certain people.  More honestly, I think that I grate on people who are insecure.  Hence, it works reciprocally.  I am insecure in a few areas of my life.  Yugh, that’s not something that I wanted to admit today :-) > Back to the original question, when I first wandered on to usenet years > ago, I used to get routinely upset by certain posters. I’d obsess about > it for days. This was in other groups, most notably ASD and the manic > depressive group (now that’s a tough group, let me tell you!!!)

I used to obsess about it too, today I just think about it and post what I was thinking :-) > But not anymore. It would take quite a lot for me to get upset these > days. I read everyone’s posts, even the trolls (I get a chuckle out of > them). There’s not a single poster on ASM for whom I can’t find > something to like, even if I don’t agree with them on certain issues or > would vote differently. :-) > jen

You’re a good person Jen and thanks for your honesty.

Response:

"Allen the Ancient" <allentheanci…@nospamplease.yahoo.com> wrote in message news:allentheancient-C21E3F.13025522112004@individual.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> MsLiz and everyone, > Hi from a longtime lurker — how long, you’ll see from this post. > Your observation that people may act very differently in a newsgroup > than in real life echoes observations made over the years, not only with > USENET but with email. A quick example: >          Posting an article is a lot like driving a car – you have to >     be  in  control of yourself.  Postings which begin "Jane, you ig- >     norant slut, …" are very definitely considered in poor  taste*. >     Unfortunately, they are also far too common. >          The psychology of this is interesting.  One  popular  belief >     is that since we interact with USENET via computers, we all often >     forget that a computer did not do the posting; a  human  did.   A >     contributing  factor is that you don’t have to look the target of >     abuse in the eye when you post  an  abusive  message;  eye-to-eye >     contact  has  an amazing effect on inhibiting obnoxious behavior. >     As a result, discussions on the USENET often  degenerate  into  a >     catfight far more readily than would a face-to-face discussion. >     Footnote: * Unless you are critiquing Saturday Night Live. > This is from a USENET etiquette guide written in 1986 ("How to Use > USENET Effectively", by Matt Bishop). I remember similar laments even > earlier, but don’t have source text.

The one thing I think is different now is the fact that we are well aware it’s a human on the other end. Back in 86, USENET was new – hell, computer communication was fairly new – but now, prettymuch "everyone" is online, and we all know it. I kinda think this contributes to flame-fests. I started on in internet back in the late 80’s, and remember how civil it basically was. Yea, you had idiots, but at that time, you had to be fairly computer-literate just to get here, which greatly decreased the "ignorant blowhard" factor. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I don’t think anyone believes this forum gives them the right to be > rude; at least, I hope not! I think it is in essence a medium that can > cause people to depersonalize others. By that, I mean we see the person > on the other side more abstractly than we would a person we’re talking > to, and so will not measure the impact or effect of our words as much > as we would normally, because their reaction is both delayed (due to > posting/transmission time) and ignorable (don’t read it). If we speak > rudely to someone next to us, we will see their reaction and not be > able to ignore it in the same way. > Boy, that makes me sound calculated! I don’t mean that we weigh each > and every word when we talk, but we do try not to be rude. It’s the > difference between telling your love that "when you look into his eyes, > time stands still" and "his face could stop a clock". > Anyway, some thoughts from one who has been on USENET since the 1980’s, > and reading this group for a long time. > By the way, I do like this group. It goes through phases of > contentiousness and supportiveness, and at its worse has been much > more pleasant than other groups. Hope you all don’t mind my dropping in!

It reminds me that this group is much bigger than the 30 or so "regular posters".

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -JWB wrote: > "MsLiz" <care…@msn.com> wrote in message > news:1101150824.556975.104020@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com… > > I’ve taken this from a different thread, which has lead me to start a > > new thread.  Being the "non stop thinker" the gift giving thread really > > got me to thinking about why it bothered me so much when I was > > criticized by JWB.  I guess I"m being pretty ballsy by being as open > > with my feelings as I am about to, but here goes. > Believe me, you "take" it much harsher than it’s meant. > Any criticism seems to bother you. You have a bit of a martyr complex > (imho).

Ahem, if I may butt in here for a minute…. JWB, you have this habit of being really blunt. It’s the way you word things. I can see how others might bristle. But Caren, sometimes you, too, come across as blunt, just in a different way! I don’t think you see it in yourself. IMO, JWB rubs you the wrong way because he reflects something about your own personality. The two of you, from my perspective, have way more similiarities than differences, you are both just stubbornly blind to them. :-) Back to the original question, when I first wandered on to usenet years ago, I used to get routinely upset by certain posters. I’d obsess about it for days. This was in other groups, most notably ASD and the manic depressive group (now that’s a tough group, let me tell you!!!) But not anymore. It would take quite a lot for me to get upset these days. I read everyone’s posts, even the trolls (I get a chuckle out of them). There’s not a single poster on ASM for whom I can’t find something to like, even if I don’t agree with them on certain issues or would vote differently. :-) jen

Response:

"shinypenny" <shinypenny0…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:1101159693.572378.177850@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> JWB wrote: >> "MsLiz" <care…@msn.com> wrote in message >> news:1101150824.556975.104020@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com… >> > I’ve taken this from a different thread, which has lead me to start > a >> > new thread.  Being the "non stop thinker" the gift giving thread > really >> > got me to thinking about why it bothered me so much when I was >> > criticized by JWB.  I guess I"m being pretty ballsy by being as > open >> > with my feelings as I am about to, but here goes. >> Believe me, you "take" it much harsher than it’s meant. >> Any criticism seems to bother you. You have a bit of a martyr complex >> (imho). > Ahem, if I may butt in here for a minute…. > JWB, you have this habit of being really blunt.

I know. >It’s the way you word > things. I can see how others might bristle.

I can too. But, at least in my opinion, it’s because they don’t really like hearing the truth, and would rather it sweetened. I’m not really good at sugarcoating something to make it easier to swallow. To me, relating the story about my wife, and how I find her similar to MsLiz in this vein *is* my way of softening it. In other words, this is what I see, but how bad can it be – I’m friggen’ married to someone who does the exact same thing. And yea, my bluntness is sometimes a problem for my wife, but she does freely admit that’s it’s at least as much her fault as mine, as usually I’m right about whatever it is I’m being blunt about. I could be a bit softer with my observations, but she has realized she could really own up to valid faults without shooting the messenger. > But Caren, sometimes you, too, come across as blunt, just in a > different way! I don’t think you see it in yourself. > IMO, JWB rubs you the wrong way because he reflects something about > your own personality. The two of you, from my perspective, have way > more similiarities than differences, you are both just stubbornly blind > to them. :-)

I agree with that. > Back to the original question, when I first wandered on to usenet years > ago, I used to get routinely upset by certain posters. I’d obsess about > it for days. This was in other groups, most notably ASD and the manic > depressive group (now that’s a tough group, let me tell you!!!) > But not anymore. It would take quite a lot for me to get upset these > days. I read everyone’s posts, even the trolls (I get a chuckle out of > them). There’s not a single poster on ASM for whom I can’t find > something to like, even if I don’t agree with them on certain issues or > would vote differently. :-)

I feel the same way.

Response:

JWB wrote: > And yea, my bluntness is sometimes a problem for my wife, but she does > freely admit that’s it’s at least as much her fault as mine, as usually I’m > right about whatever it is I’m being blunt about. I could be a bit softer > with my observations, but she has realized she could really own up to valid > faults without shooting the messenger.

Okay, so your wife has realized her contribution to the equation; is she making progress to do something about it?  If so, then you *really* ought to meet her halfway, JWB, and soften up a bit. It’s only fair, don’t you think? Besides, it isn’t going to kill you to soften up. jen

Response:

MsLiz and everyone, Hi from a longtime lurker — how long, you’ll see from this post. Your observation that people may act very differently in a newsgroup than in real life echoes observations made over the years, not only with USENET but with email. A quick example:           Posting an article is a lot like driving a car – you have to      be  in  control of yourself.  Postings which begin "Jane, you ig-      norant slut, …" are very definitely considered in poor  taste*.      Unfortunately, they are also far too common.           The psychology of this is interesting.  One  popular  belief      is that since we interact with USENET via computers, we all often      forget that a computer did not do the posting; a  human  did.   A      contributing  factor is that you don’t have to look the target of      abuse in the eye when you post  an  abusive  message;  eye-to-eye      contact  has  an amazing effect on inhibiting obnoxious behavior.      As a result, discussions on the USENET often  degenerate  into  a      catfight far more readily than would a face-to-face discussion.      Footnote: * Unless you are critiquing Saturday Night Live. This is from a USENET etiquette guide written in 1986 ("How to Use USENET Effectively", by Matt Bishop). I remember similar laments even earlier, but don’t have source text. I don’t think anyone believes this forum gives them the right to be rude; at least, I hope not! I think it is in essence a medium that can cause people to depersonalize others. By that, I mean we see the person on the other side more abstractly than we would a person we’re talking to, and so will not measure the impact or effect of our words as much as we would normally, because their reaction is both delayed (due to posting/transmission time) and ignorable (don’t read it). If we speak rudely to someone next to us, we will see their reaction and not be able to ignore it in the same way. Boy, that makes me sound calculated! I don’t mean that we weigh each and every word when we talk, but we do try not to be rude. It’s the difference between telling your love that "when you look into his eyes, time stands still" and "his face could stop a clock". Anyway, some thoughts from one who has been on USENET since the 1980’s, and reading this group for a long time. By the way, I do like this group. It goes through phases of contentiousness and supportiveness, and at its worse has been much more pleasant than other groups. Hope you all don’t mind my dropping in! We now return you to the rest of the postings … Allie — Allen the Ancient Delete "nospamplease." to email me!

Response:

Posted and emailed. In article <1101150824.556975.104…@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, MsLiz <care…@msn.com> wrote:

[snip] >Perhaps I could have said that better.  While it’s easy to embrace many >of our differences, sometimes our differences turn into a personal >thing.  For instance, in many of the threads, it has turned from me >asking for opinions and sharing mine, into JWB for instance, turning it >into, not only don’t I agree with you, but I also think you’re selfish >for doing it that way.  If this is a forum for adults to converse back >and forth, I don’t understand why the advice or different way of doing >things, sometimes ends up with a judgement or an assumption that A=B. >I’m kind of thinking of the post on breast cancer not being caused by >abortions whereby the person who allegedly proved this, made this kind >of A=B.  Just as, if I choose to buy someone a healthier version of >something, that it equals thinking I’m better rather than DIFFERENT.

  One notion I’ve swiped and will pass on is: "All conversations are with myself."     For the last part of your example, it’s the respondant reminding himself, not you, that he thinks that people who buy the ‘healthier’ version of something think that they’re better than he is.  Several thoughts of his, all fundamentally independant of anything you said or did. >While all of us have many similarities, we also have differences.  I >think that most people who post in this NG are  smart.  I do see the >intelligence levels in different areas.  Some of the posts on science >or math issues simply send me immediately off to read another thread. >I have hated math my whole life and would do anything to avoid it. >Same with science.  

  I’ll be carrying on my self-conversation about math and science hatred shortly, but in a different group. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->And a few other topics.  Does that mean that I see >those who know more in those areas as acting like they know it all? >That they are above it all?  That they think they’re better than I? >No, I see it as a fundamental difference which is not good or bad.  Or >as stated above…Smart in math=he thinks he’s better.  Rather than, >hmmmm, that person is really smart in math and I’m not.  Maybe I can >learn something from him. >Why is it viewed if I’m more interested (and fairly well educated) in >health food issues, or gift giving ideas, or issues regarding social >service agencies or whatever areas I’m fairly well versed in, as being >arrogant, or a know it all, or I think that my way is best?  Isn’t this >a forum in which we share what we know?  Isn’t this a forum in which we >share our feelings and thoughts and ideas and much of our lives with >each other?  I thought it was.  But what I’m seeing are some who think >that this is a free for all to say whatever they feel like saying >without any regard for feelings and it’s been bothering me a little >bit.

  On the whole, I think there are fewer objections when folks talk about the food issues (for instance) than the math/science issues.  But that, too, is an observation colored by where the speaker is sitting.   But, whether science or hot fudge sundaes, there are certainly people who get very upset, intrinsically, by anybody else speaking to the issue and having a different opinion or conclusion than they do.  And some will carry out some fairly hostile conversation with themselves about that threatening result. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I don’t know, perhaps it’s the naiive side of me that wants to live in >a world where people are kind, respectful and actually give a crap >about the people that they normally interact with. >I’ve wondered this before and I wonder this again: Does this venue of >communicating give (some) people the right to be downright rude (ie. >Tony, when he doesn’t agree with someone) or is this how people act in >real life situations as well? Does Tony tell someone to fuck themself >at work if he disagrees with something?  If not, why is it okay to do >it in here? If it is only the way that people act online, what is the >deal with that?  Why not just act the way you would in real life?  Is a >monitor a wall of safety?  Is it a way to practice how you really want >to act? >I’ve always been interested in this small peice of internet world.  I >don’t really know anyone real life who talks to people so bluntly and >harshly.  That is not to say that I don’t know people who speak the >truth.  Someone can tell you something and it might hurt, but at least >it was said respectfully.  I think that Tracy is a perfect example of >someone who shares how she feels but does it respetfully and without >slamming someone or putting labels of judgement on that person.  That’s >how I try to conduct my life both online and offline.  But somehow or >other, a few folks on this newsgroup misinterpret what I’m saying and >turn it into  a personality judgement and I’m seriously wondering what >that is about.

  I’ve been online for quite a while, and certainly in more heated newsgroups than this.   Yes, people (most of them, most of the time) really do act differently in newsgroups than in 3d.  One of the most vitriolic, and prolific, posters of my early days on the net turned out to have a coworker I knew.  In 3d, the prolific spewer of vitriol was extremely quiet and mild-mannered.  (Iterate for a few such people since then as well.) Conversely, fairly often when I meet people in 3d, they’re surprised to discover that I sound pretty much the same in person as in my writing. (A fact my lady love was glad to discover, as she’d hit google shortly after meeting me and liked my writing.)  Their surprise, I figure, is that so few people do match up.     As to why the common discrepancy … I dunno.  I should add that the differences go the other way as well.  I’ve encountered, and heard from folks who had, people whose presence on the net is fairly calm, reasoned, and considerate, but in 3d were self-centered, obnoxious jerks. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Without a doubt, I that I often write posts in which my mind goes way >faster than my fingers or vice verse.  I just wonder why it is (and >seems like is happening more often) that it’s so easy to criticize >rather than ask a question to seek information before a judgement is >made.  I can certainly be accountable for when I act like a jerk and >have done so in the past and would not hesitate to do so in the >present.  I also wonder about this in face to face situations, about >issues in which peole’s buttons really get pushed at times and the >button pushee gets mad at what the original statement was and reacts to >it, rather than either asking questions or looking inward at their >response. >Do any of you reach a point where you simply stop reading certain >posters?  Do any of you ever decide to go to private email to work out >what you might view as a personal problem?  Thanks to anyone who >decides to respond to this post.

  Done both several times.  Some times it’s a big plus to communication to not have an audience involved.  It seems much easier for people to carry out a discussion with few witnesses.  The audience tends to make for debates instead — reflexively attacking the other’s points.  Some back and forth ‘behind the scenes’ has lead, several times, to my seeing that the other person had a good (by my standards) point that I wasn’t seeing in the middle of the newsgroup, or that I was describing what I meant poorly in the newsgroup.   Some posters, I eventually decide, don’t have much to say and I’ve seen what little that is.  So them I skip.  Others have some well-worn tracks they repeat a lot, but also do contribute new thoughts at other times.  Them, I’ll read with the half-eyeball, looking to see if this is the zillionth repetition of their hobby horse, or is something new.  (I dare say that for some readers I fall in that class myself. That’s fine.)  Conversely, there are people who I make a point of reading even if the topic is one that I ordinarily would skip.  They’re consistently insightful, and I’ll go through the not fundamentally interesting topic to get to the insight. >And today, none of my posts are showing up in this new Google Beta >thing.

  Hm.  Posted and emailed. — Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links. Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

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I’ve just come back to this NG after being away for months. There was always the "wimmen, none of ‘em are any good <ptoo>" crowd but they were easily ignored. But there was one guy who was so nonstop obnoxious that he finally became the one and only person I’d ever killfiled. He doesn’t seem to be here anymore. That wasn’t my reason for being away. It had more to do with NG access. Now I’m using google-beta also and I’m mostly happy with it. – Randy

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In article <1101150824.556975.104…@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, "MsLiz" <care…@msn.com> wrote: >Do any of you reach a point where you simply stop reading certain >posters?  Do any of you ever decide to go to private email to work out >what you might view as a personal problem?  Thanks to anyone who >decides to respond to this post.

First question: Yes, i’ve stopped reading certain posters in this and other newsgroups, as well as picking out some of my "favorite" posters and reading just about all of theirs.  A matter of personal preference, as well as time. Second question: Yes, i do go into private email now for highly personal things.  I’m more than willing to share personal things with good people, but not the weird-os! :-)  I learned a lesson about opening up your heart in newsgroups.  There are people just waiting to jump on your weak spots – and yet worse there are those who will attempt to patronize a person who is having a difficult time, like pretending to be someone they aren’t, pretending to "care" when in fact they’re laughing behind your cyber-back.  I’m sure that’s a VERY small minority and most posters are sincere, but when you’re really down, that small minority can appear really big.   Ever notice (and i used to do this myself) when someone posts a question or presents their problem, they get a bunch of positive responses and one or two really negative ones… then they seem to get upset over the negative one and let all the positive ones slide by?

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I’ve taken this from a different thread, which has lead me to start a new thread.  Being the "non stop thinker" the gift giving thread really got me to thinking about why it bothered me so much when I was criticized by JWB.  I guess I"m being pretty ballsy by being as open with my feelings as I am about to, but here goes. A few days ago, I wrote: > >You know, the more I read threads, since the last few weeks or so, the > >more I see incredible fundamental differences between some of us > >posters.  I haven’t figured out if that’s a good thing or not.

Perhaps I could have said that better.  While it’s easy to embrace many of our differences, sometimes our differences turn into a personal thing.  For instance, in many of the threads, it has turned from me asking for opinions and sharing mine, into JWB for instance, turning it into, not only don’t I agree with you, but I also think you’re selfish for doing it that way.  If this is a forum for adults to converse back and forth, I don’t understand why the advice or different way of doing things, sometimes ends up with a judgement or an assumption that A=B. I’m kind of thinking of the post on breast cancer not being caused by abortions whereby the person who allegedly proved this, made this kind of A=B.  Just as, if I choose to buy someone a healthier version of something, that it equals thinking I’m better rather than DIFFERENT. While all of us have many similarities, we also have differences.  I think that most people who post in this NG are  smart.  I do see the intelligence levels in different areas.  Some of the posts on science or math issues simply send me immediately off to read another thread. I have hated math my whole life and would do anything to avoid it. Same with science.  And a few other topics.  Does that mean that I see those who know more in those areas as acting like they know it all? That they are above it all?  That they think they’re better than I? No, I see it as a fundamental difference which is not good or bad.  Or as stated above…Smart in math=he thinks he’s better.  Rather than, hmmmm, that person is really smart in math and I’m not.  Maybe I can learn something from him. Why is it viewed if I’m more interested (and fairly well educated) in health food issues, or gift giving ideas, or issues regarding social service agencies or whatever areas I’m fairly well versed in, as being arrogant, or a know it all, or I think that my way is best?  Isn’t this a forum in which we share what we know?  Isn’t this a forum in which we share our feelings and thoughts and ideas and much of our lives with each other?  I thought it was.  But what I’m seeing are some who think that this is a free for all to say whatever they feel like saying without any regard for feelings and it’s been bothering me a little bit. I don’t know, perhaps it’s the naiive side of me that wants to live in a world where people are kind, respectful and actually give a crap about the people that they normally interact with. I’ve wondered this before and I wonder this again: Does this venue of communicating give (some) people the right to be downright rude (ie. Tony, when he doesn’t agree with someone) or is this how people act in real life situations as well? Does Tony tell someone to fuck themself at work if he disagrees with something?  If not, why is it okay to do it in here? If it is only the way that people act online, what is the deal with that?  Why not just act the way you would in real life?  Is a monitor a wall of safety?  Is it a way to practice how you really want to act? I’ve always been interested in this small peice of internet world.  I don’t really know anyone real life who talks to people so bluntly and harshly.  That is not to say that I don’t know people who speak the truth.  Someone can tell you something and it might hurt, but at least it was said respectfully.  I think that Tracy is a perfect example of someone who shares how she feels but does it respetfully and without slamming someone or putting labels of judgement on that person.  That’s how I try to conduct my life both online and offline.  But somehow or other, a few folks on this newsgroup misinterpret what I’m saying and turn it into  a personality judgement and I’m seriously wondering what that is about. Without a doubt, I that I often write posts in which my mind goes way faster than my fingers or vice verse.  I just wonder why it is (and seems like is happening more often) that it’s so easy to criticize rather than ask a question to seek information before a judgement is made.  I can certainly be accountable for when I act like a jerk and have done so in the past and would not hesitate to do so in the present.  I also wonder about this in face to face situations, about issues in which peole’s buttons really get pushed at times and the button pushee gets mad at what the original statement was and reacts to it, rather than either asking questions or looking inward at their response. Do any of you reach a point where you simply stop reading certain posters?  Do any of you ever decide to go to private email to work out what you might view as a personal problem?  Thanks to anyone who decides to respond to this post. And today, none of my posts are showing up in this new Google Beta thing.

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