Act Acting » Acting Agency » Carryons, FAs and Safety

Carryons, FAs and Safety

Question:

Great.  Why don’t we just give all flight attendants and airline employees machine guns while we’re at it?  

Actually, I was toying with a proposal that anyone attempting to bring bags with them in an emergency evacuation would be subject to being shot.  I reluctantly concede that the possibilities of collateral damage and the problems with loaded firearms in the cabin make this less than feasible.  So I offer two other proposals:  any passenger taking bags in an emergency evacuation will be hit on the head with said bags; or any passenger can indeed effect the removal of his/her carryon luggage, but at the expense of his/her own place in the exit queue–IOW, either the bags get out or you do. The poor dears don’t have enough power already.  Yeah, right.

It sounds like there must be some exciting stories about evil, degrading things that powerful flight attendants have made people do.   I must get all the boring flights, where they exert their power to tell people to fasten their seat belts and turn off their cell phones.  Even if they got an unholy thrill from doing so, I’m hard-pressed to see the ill effects. Airline employees are already Nazis in civilian clothing.  

I cite Godwin’s law and declare this thread at the end of its useful life, if not, alas, at the end, period. Deborah Stevenson

Response:

Here’s an article from the front page of today’s Washington Post that may shed some light — and provoke some wrath — about carryons: <snip

The article you posted spoke of people bringing on too many / heavy carryons, and trying to take them along in an evacuation. I have a possible, partial solution for the latter.  Put internal, electrical locks on all the overhead bins (except the ones the cabin crew needs to access).  Once all luggage is stowed, the bins are locked until the fasten seat belt light goes out.  Similarly, bins are locked during descent until the aircraft is stopped at the gate. This will help normal operations, in that passengers will not get up and open the overhead bins while the aircraft is still taxiing to the gate. In a crash, it will prevent people from taking their carryons in the overhead (but not underseat).  If passengers know the overheads are locked, they will also not waste valuable seconds attempting to open the overhead. Lastly, one safety aspect of carryons has not been mentioned in this thread.  In a crash, seat legs are designed to deform, crumple, and collapse in a controlled manner to help protect the passengers (similar to crumple zones on autos).  Underseat items, especially if rigid and unyielding, can interfere with the controlled collapse and increase severity of injuries to passengers. Ken Ishiguro

Response:

Great.  Why don’t we just give all flight attendants and airline
employees machine guns while we’re at it?  The poor dears don’t
have enough power already.  Yeah, right.
Airline employees are already Nazis in civilian clothing.  Let’s
give them a little more control over our lives, why don’t we?
Better yet, why don’t we just turn American commercial aviation
over to the military?  Got two carryons instead of one?
Pulverize the SOB.  You commit the error of asking the flight
attendant for help stowing your carryon?  She should stuff a
grenade down your throat and watch you blow up to pieces.
We’re almost there now anyway, why not just go all the way?
Every airline employee already considers passengers the enemy
anyway.  Witness all the nasty messages on rec.travel.air from
airline employees like "tadjr", "jla", "doogie", "Charles Payton
Bass".  Always ready to fire off nasty reprisals to every person
who dares to expose the fact that they were mistreated by the
Nazis who work for the airlines.  Never for once stopping to
realize that those passengers who they hate so much are the
ones who PAY FOR THEIR SALARY.  You bought a computer and a
modem and an ISP connection with your salary?  Thank every
single passenger on your airline for making that possible.
But no, instead it’s us against them.  Against the horrible
passengers.  As if it weren’t enough that you give them hell at
the airport and on the plane, let them have it on the Internet too.
Well, like I say, in the U.S. airlines already operate almost
under martial law.  So let’s just make it final, go all the way,
and turn the airlines over to the military.
Give all airline employees machine guns and a full arsenal on every plane.  Blow away those passengers if they don’t behave.
I’ll bet people like "tadjr" and "doogie" are just salivating
over it.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here’s an article from the front page of today’s Washington Post
that may shed some light — and provoke some wrath — about carryons:
An Unchecked Problem: Fliers Put Bags Before Safety
By Don Phillips
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, November 14, 1997; Page A01
The Washington Post
When the landing gear of US Airways Flight 479 collapsed last Friday at
Charlotte and the crew ordered an evacuation down the emergency slides,
almost half the passengers reacted by grabbing for their carry-on luggage.
According to safety investigators and some of those aboard the
aircraft, flight attendants were hard pressed to usher everyone
off without injury. One man grabbed two bags. Another
struggled with a large bag. A woman blocked the aisle struggling
to get a garment bag out of an overhead bin, arguing with a flight
attendant who prodded her toward an exit. A young mother was
deterred from taking a diaper bag down the slide by flight
attendants who told her she needed two hands to hold her baby.
The Flight 479 evacuation dramatized one of aviation’s most
sensitive safety issues: whether tougher limits should be placed
on the luggage that passengers carry to their seats. Flight
attendants complain that passengers are bringing too much stuff
aboard, and more than one gate employee has become involved
in physical struggles with angry passengers denied carry-on
access. Injuries from bags tumbling from overhead bins are
occurring more frequently.
The carry-on issue also is an economic one that airlines are
struggling to resolve without alienating customers. Next month,
for example, United Airlines will begin limiting discount-fare
passengers at the Des Moines airport to one carry-on bag, while
allowing full-fare travelers two.
The Federal Aviation Administration is under increasing pressure
to help solve the carry-on problem. The Association of Flight
Attendants has demanded new regulations, and American
Airlines joined its flight attendant and pilot unions Wednesday in
asking for uniform rules throughout the industry.
Patricia A. Friend, international president of the Association of
Flight Attendants, opened a day-long conference on the issue
yesterday by complaining that her members were subjected to
"disruption in the cabin" and "physical and verbal abuse" because
of "the lack of uniformity in carriers’ programs."
"The public is ignorant, and we’ve made them that way," said
28-year veteran Linda Romano. "Are we safety professionals or
Coke-and-peanut toters?"
In 1988 the FAA issued a rule requiring each airline to adopt a
carry-on policy and have it approved by the agency. The policy
must require that all bags go through security scanners and be
stowed before takeoff, but the FAA set no limits on the number
or size of bags.
Barry Valentine, acting deputy federal aviation administrator,
said yesterday that the FAA will not issue a rule requiring a
uniform policy because "we don’t want to get involved in retail-level
regulating." But he said the FAA recognizes that
something must be done and will soon issue an "advisory
circular" that will give better guidance to airlines, including
suggested limits on the number and size of bags.
The industry says the problem has worsened because more
people are flying and passengers are taking more items onto
aircraft. According to industry estimates, the weight of baggage
per passenger doubled in the decade after 1985, and recent spot
checks indicate that average carry-ons now are even heavier.
"We’re carrying more stuff and we’re carrying different stuff,"
said Peggy Gilligan, FAA deputy associate administrator for
regulation and certification, who spoke to the flight attendants
conference. Laptop computers, which are carried aboard flights
by many passengers, were not common a decade ago, she said,
and passengers can shop at airport malls before flights, creating
more carry-on items.
Purses aren’t counted as carry-on luggage under FAA
guidelines, but Gilligan said she is now seeing some that are "big
enough to hold the Encyclopaedia Britannica." She said the
guidelines might have to deal with purses.
Some officials in the airline and travel industry cite the
determination of people who want to avoid the wait for checked
luggage, although passengers on the supersonic Concorde also
pack a lot of carry-ons despite a promise their checked bags will
beat them to the carousel. The trend also is encouraged by
luggage manufacturers who market large bags as eligible for the
cabin.
The Air Line Pilots Association said pilots have become
concerned that excessive luggage in the cabin is causing
problems with takeoff weight calculations and decision on when to abort.
But the most troubling safety issue is the insistence by many
passengers on dragging luggage off planes in emergencies.
Passengers, blocked by flight attendants trained to take luggage
away from them, often throw bags down the slide. There have
been occasions when duty-free liquor has broken at the bottom
of the slide, leaving glass shards in the path of other passengers.
"It is constantly a problem," said Nora Marshall, a survival
factors expert at the National Transportation Safety Board.
evacuations have been delayed by people trying to
get bags." The safety board has videotape of passengers jumping
from wings with bags in each hand.
Marshall said the safety board has begun an in-depth study of 25
evacuations, including a passenger survey, in an effort to
determine why people react this way.
Of 60 survey forms returned so far from passengers who
evacuated a Delta Air Lines L-1011 wide-body jet in Honolulu in
August, 41 have acknowledged trying to take luggage with them.
After the US Airways incident at Charlotte, the last flight
attendant to leave the plane was confronted by a passenger who
had been forced to surrender a bag during the evacuation. The
flight attendant crew had done an exemplary job of evacuating
the plane, according to all official sources. But the passenger
had only one question: Why didn’t you bring my bag with you?
                        CARRYING YOUR BAGGAGE
Here are some of the Federal Aviation Administration rules for
carry-on baggage (size and weight limitations, which still need
the approval of the FAA, vary according to each airline):
Each piece of carry-on baggage must be scanned to control the
size and amount carried on board; passengers with baggage that
exceeds the limitations cannot be allowed to board.
All pieces of baggage must be stowed in a closet or baggage
stowage compartment that:
Has proper restraints.
Posts weight restrictions.
Doesn’t hinder the use of emergency equipment.
Alternatively, baggage may be stowed under a passenger seat
that has a device to prevent baggage from sliding forward or into
the aisles.
SOURCE: Federal Aviation Administration

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Response:

Here’s an article from the front page of today’s Washington Post that may shed some light — and provoke some wrath — about carryons: An Unchecked Problem: Fliers Put Bags Before Safety By Don Phillips Washington Post Staff Writer Friday, November 14, 1997; Page A01 The Washington Post When the landing gear of US Airways Flight 479 collapsed last Friday at Charlotte and the crew ordered an evacuation down the emergency slides, almost half the passengers reacted by grabbing for their carry-on luggage. According to safety investigators and some of those aboard the aircraft, flight attendants were hard pressed to usher everyone off without injury. One man grabbed two bags. Another struggled with a large bag. A woman blocked the aisle struggling to get a garment bag out of an overhead bin, arguing with a flight attendant who prodded her toward an exit. A young mother was deterred from taking a diaper bag down the slide by flight attendants who told her she needed two hands to hold her baby. The Flight 479 evacuation dramatized one of aviation’s most sensitive safety issues: whether tougher limits should be placed on the luggage that passengers carry to their seats. Flight attendants complain that passengers are bringing too much stuff aboard, and more than one gate employee has become involved in physical struggles with angry passengers denied carry-on access. Injuries from bags tumbling from overhead bins are occurring more frequently. The carry-on issue also is an economic one that airlines are struggling to resolve without alienating customers. Next month, for example, United Airlines will begin limiting discount-fare passengers at the Des Moines airport to one carry-on bag, while allowing full-fare travelers two. The Federal Aviation Administration is under increasing pressure to help solve the carry-on problem. The Association of Flight Attendants has demanded new regulations, and American Airlines joined its flight attendant and pilot unions Wednesday in asking for uniform rules throughout the industry. Patricia A. Friend, international president of the Association of Flight Attendants, opened a day-long conference on the issue yesterday by complaining that her members were subjected to "disruption in the cabin" and "physical and verbal abuse" because of "the lack of uniformity in carriers’ programs." "The public is ignorant, and we’ve made them that way," said 28-year veteran Linda Romano. "Are we safety professionals or Coke-and-peanut toters?" In 1988 the FAA issued a rule requiring each airline to adopt a carry-on policy and have it approved by the agency. The policy must require that all bags go through security scanners and be stowed before takeoff, but the FAA set no limits on the number or size of bags. Barry Valentine, acting deputy federal aviation administrator, said yesterday that the FAA will not issue a rule requiring a uniform policy because "we don’t want to get involved in retail-level regulating." But he said the FAA recognizes that something must be done and will soon issue an "advisory circular" that will give better guidance to airlines, including suggested limits on the number and size of bags. The industry says the problem has worsened because more people are flying and passengers are taking more items onto aircraft. According to industry estimates, the weight of baggage per passenger doubled in the decade after 1985, and recent spot checks indicate that average carry-ons now are even heavier. "We’re carrying more stuff and we’re carrying different stuff," said Peggy Gilligan, FAA deputy associate administrator for regulation and certification, who spoke to the flight attendants conference. Laptop computers, which are carried aboard flights by many passengers, were not common a decade ago, she said, and passengers can shop at airport malls before flights, creating  more carry-on items. Purses aren’t counted as carry-on luggage under FAA guidelines, but Gilligan said she is now seeing some that are "big enough to hold the Encyclopaedia Britannica." She said the guidelines might have to deal with purses. Some officials in the airline and travel industry cite the determination of people who want to avoid the wait for checked luggage, although passengers on the supersonic Concorde also pack a lot of carry-ons despite a promise their checked bags will beat them to the carousel. The trend also is encouraged by luggage manufacturers who market large bags as eligible for the cabin. The Air Line Pilots Association said pilots have become concerned that excessive luggage in the cabin is causing problems with takeoff weight calculations and decision on when to abort. But the most troubling safety issue is the insistence by many passengers on dragging luggage off planes in emergencies. Passengers, blocked by flight attendants trained to take luggage away from them, often throw bags down the slide. There have been occasions when duty-free liquor has broken at the bottom of the slide, leaving glass shards in the path of other passengers. "It is constantly a problem," said Nora Marshall, a survival factors expert at the National Transportation Safety Board. evacuations have been delayed by people trying to get bags." The safety board has videotape of passengers jumping from wings with bags in each hand. Marshall said the safety board has begun an in-depth study of 25 evacuations, including a passenger survey, in an effort to determine why people react this way. Of 60 survey forms returned so far from passengers who evacuated a Delta Air Lines L-1011 wide-body jet in Honolulu in August, 41 have acknowledged trying to take luggage with them. After the US Airways incident at Charlotte, the last flight attendant to leave the plane was confronted by a passenger who had been forced to surrender a bag during the evacuation. The flight attendant crew had done an exemplary job of evacuating  the plane, according to all official sources. But the passenger had only one question: Why didn’t you bring my bag with you?                          CARRYING YOUR BAGGAGE Here are some of the Federal Aviation Administration rules for carry-on baggage (size and weight limitations, which still need the approval of the FAA, vary according to each airline): Each piece of carry-on baggage must be scanned to control the size and amount carried on board; passengers with baggage that exceeds the limitations cannot be allowed to board. All pieces of baggage must be stowed in a closet or baggage stowage compartment that: Has proper restraints. Posts weight restrictions. Doesn’t hinder the use of emergency equipment. Alternatively, baggage may be stowed under a passenger seat that has a device to prevent baggage from sliding forward or into the aisles. SOURCE: Federal Aviation Administration

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