Act Acting » Acting Agency » Is the Hawaii Ironman Lottery legal?

Is the Hawaii Ironman Lottery legal?

Question:

a game or scheme without charge" does give a tiny loophole in that you do have to pay to play but I’d be willing to gamble (pun intended) that that would get them off if prosecuted.

err, would not.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t know if I included it in the original message but here is the definition of "something of value" from the same statute: (12) "Something of value" means any money or property, any token, object or article exchangeable for money or property, or any form of credit or promise directly or indirectly contemplating transfer of money or property or of any interest therein or involving extension of a service, entertainment or a privilege of playing at a game or scheme without charge; "a privilege of playing at a game or scheme without charge" does give a tiny loophole in that you do have to pay to play but I’d be willing to gamble (pun intended) that that would not get them off if prosecuted.

Again, I’m no lawyer, but I think that laws are written with very specific wording. In this case, IMHO, there is nothing of value to be gained from the IMH lottery. A lottery entry is not worth any money as it may not be sold, transfered, etc. I can see your point, but I disagree. So, I don’t think it’s a loophole. I think this wording is probably what makes the IMH lottery legal. BTW, this has been an interesting discussion. But, I’m curious– why does this bother you? David / FEY2K IMCAL2000 16:53 I hate junk email. I’m trying VERY hard to avoid it with my new ISP. So, to reach me, reply to wuth followed by grp, all as one word (ie namegrp) at bellsouth dot net. Let’s see any bot figure out how to get my email from that!

Response:

I don’t know if I included it in the original message but here is the definition of "something of value" from the same statute: (12) "Something of value" means any money or property, any token, object or article exchangeable for money or property, or any form of credit or promise directly or indirectly contemplating transfer of money or property or of any interest therein or involving extension of a service, entertainment or a privilege of playing at a game or scheme without charge; "a privilege of playing at a game or scheme without charge" does give a tiny loophole in that you do have to pay to play but I’d be willing to gamble (pun intended) that that would get them off if prosecuted. In any event, the fact that they don’t allow me to transfer the entry, doesn’t mean someone would not pay me for the entry and run under my name. Even if they check id’s you would likely not get caught.  And if I were a prosecutor I could line up triathletes all day who would say that there is defiantly a value to winning this.  Besides, if there is no value, why are people paying $35 for a chance to win?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (4) "Gambling", a person engages in "gambling" when he stakes or risks something of value upon the outcome of a contest of chance or a future contingent event not under his control or influence, upon an agreement or understanding that he will receive something of value in the event of a certain outcome. James – I think the above paragraph explaines why the Ironman lottery is not gambling – there is nothing of value received in return.  A chance to race ar IMH (if you pay your entry fee and complete a qualifying event) does not have any monetary value.  It is not something you can buy or sell or even give away – you either use it or you don’t.  therefore it has no value. Bruce Las Vegas

Response:

(4) "Gambling", a person engages in "gambling" when he stakes or risks something of value upon the outcome of a contest of chance or a future contingent event not under his control or influence, upon an agreement or understanding that he will receive something of value in the event of a certain outcome.

James – I think the above paragraph explaines why the Ironman lottery is not gambling – there is nothing of value received in return.  A chance to race ar IMH (if you pay your entry fee and complete a qualifying event) does not have any monetary value.  It is not something you can buy or sell or even give away – you either use it or you don’t.  therefore it has no value. Bruce Las Vegas

Response:

Hmmm go ahead and file a suit….

It would be much cheaper to file criminal charges, let the government pay for it…  maybe cause the sponsors to pull out…

Maybe they should…if WTC is making large sums of money on illegal enterprises.

Hmm, I bet Brian chimes in on this one…  If you do not like the lottery system get off your ass and train..EARN your entry…

Oh yea that makes a lot of sense.  Because I don’t like that a company gets away with running an illegal lottery, I should go out and bust my ass to get into a race I have no desire to do.  I’d much rather just grumble about it on RST, it’s cheaper and easier… James

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You are paying for a service.  Someone has to review your information to see if you qualify.  There is a real cost to the university here and they are recouping their money.  I suppose the same argument could be made for the lottery, but I seriously doubt any court would buy it, especially since the WTC has no actual costs involved with dropping your name into a hat. The real difference however is that the example you are indicating is not gambling.  Gambling is defined as entering in a game of chance.  For the most part college acceptance is not a game of chance, but rather a skills based evaluation.  Generally you know going in if you have the skills/grades/test scores necessary to get in. This is certainly *NOT* true across the board. There’s always an element of uncertainty in such applications.

Of course, this is why I used "for the most part" and generally. Many borderline people "gamble" by applying to Harvard. Some of them get in, but most of them don’t, even though they have roughly similar

qualifications. I’d love to see you convince a court that college admissions was gambling. Whoever started this thread claimed that the lottery was almost certainly illegal, but they offered no clear justification of this claim. Why don’t you do some homework and see if you can back up this claim? Until then, I’m going to assume it’s legal since I’ve seen no evidence to the contrary.

Hmm, I thought I had done exactly that.  Gambling is illegal in many states and heavily controlled in the others.  A lottery in which you have to pay for chances is, by ANY states definition gambling.  If you were to say, that WATCH was licensed ad a casino in gambling legal states and did not accept entries from the others then I would say this is 100% legal, but neither is true. Maybe you want something more concrete?  Well I live in Missouri so I will quote Missouri statutes.  I’ll leave it to you to find your local statutes: 572.010. As used in this chapter: (1) "Advance gambling activity", a person "advances gambling activity" if, acting other than as a player, he engages in conduct that materially aids any form of gambling activity. Conduct of this nature includes but is not limited to conduct directed toward the creation or establishment of the particular game, lottery, contest, scheme, device or activity involved, toward the acquisition or maintenance of premises, paraphernalia, equipment or apparatus therefor, toward the solicitation or inducement of persons to participate therein, toward the actual conduct of the playing phases thereof, toward the arrangement or communication of any of its financial or recording phases, or toward any other phase of its operation. A person advances gambling activity if, having substantial proprietary control or other authoritative control over premises being used with his knowledge for purposes of gambling activity, he permits that activity to occur or continue or makes no effort to prevent its occurrence or continuation. The supplying, servicing and operation of a licensed excursion gambling boat under sections 313.800 to 313.840, RSMo, does not constitute advancing gambling activity; … Section on bookmaking removed for lack of relevance (3) "Contest of chance" means any contest, game, gaming scheme or gaming device in which the outcome depends in a material degree upon an element of chance, notwithstanding that the skill of the contestants may also be a factor therein; (4) "Gambling", a person engages in "gambling" when he stakes or risks something of value upon the outcome of a contest of chance or a future contingent event not under his control or influence, upon an agreement or understanding that he will receive something of value in the event of a certain outcome. Gambling does not include bona fide business transactions valid under the law of contracts, including but not limited to contracts for the purchase or sale at a future date of securities or commodities, and agreements to compensate for loss caused by the happening of chance, including but not limited to contracts of indemnity or guaranty and life, health or accident insurance; nor does gambling include playing an amusement device that confers only an immediate right of replay not exchangeable for something of value. Gambling does not include any licensed activity, or persons participating in such games which are covered by sections 313.800 to 313.840, RSMo; … Section on gambling devices and gambling records removed for lack of relevance (7) "Lottery" or "policy" means an unlawful gambling scheme in which for a consideration the participants are given an opportunity to win something of value, the award of which is determined by chance; … Section on player, professional player removed for lack of relevance (10) "Profit from gambling activity", a person "profits from gambling activity" if, other than as a player, he accepts or receives money or other property pursuant to an agreement or understanding with any person whereby he participates or is to participate in the proceeds of gambling activity; … Section on slot machine removed for lack of relevance (12) "Something of value" means any money or property, any token, object or article exchangeable for money or property, or any form of credit or promise directly or indirectly contemplating transfer of money or property or of any interest therein or involving extension of a service, entertainment or a privilege of playing at a game or scheme without charge; (13) "Unlawful" means not specifically authorized by law. (Ok this basically says that the Ironman Lottery is gambling under the statutes.) 572.030. 1. A person commits the crime of promoting gambling in the first degree if he knowingly advances or profits from unlawful gambling or lottery activity by: (1) Setting up and operating a gambling device to the extent that more than one hundred dollars of money is gambled upon or by means of the device in any one day, or setting up and operating any slot machine; or (2) Engaging in bookmaking to the extent that he receives or accepts in any one day more than one bet and a total of more than one hundred dollars in bets; or (3) Receiving in connection with a lottery or policy or enterprise: (a) Money or written records from a person other than a player whose chances or plays are represented by such money or records; or (b) More than one hundred dollars in any one day of money played in the scheme or enterprise; or (c) Something of value played in the scheme or enterprise with a fair market value exceeding one hundred dollars in any one day. 2. Promoting gambling in the first degree is a class D felony. (This says that if they are running an illegal lottery, the WTC is guilty of a class D felony.) 572.080. It is no defense under any section of this chapter relating to a lottery that the lottery itself is drawn or conducted outside Missouri and is not in violation of the laws of the jurisdiction in which it is drawn or conducted. (This means WTC is breaking the law here even if they are not in Florida.) 572.100. The general assembly by enacting this chapter intends to preempt any other regulation of the area covered by this chapter. No governmental subdivision or agency may enact or enforce a law that regulates or makes any conduct in the area covered by this chapter an offense, or the subject of a criminal or civil penalty or sanction of any kind. The term "gambling", as used in this chapter, does not include licensed activities under sections 313.800 to 313.840, RSMo. (Section 314 is titled "Licensed Gaming Activities", basically this says that the WTC is not breaking the law if they are a licensed by the state of Missouri.  Now I am assuming that they are not, therefore they are running an illegal lottery.  Of course my assumption is pretty safe since the only legal lottery here (and in most states) is state run…) 572.110. It shall be the duty of the circuit attorneys and prosecuting attorneys in their respective jurisdictions to enforce the provisions of this chapter, and the attorney general shall have a concurrent duty to enforce the provisions of this chapter. (Hmm, maybe I should call my local prosecutor…)

Response:

I think your missing the point.  The point is not how much a lottery chance compares with the cost of actually doing Hawaii, the point is that the process is almost certainly illegal.  You pay $35 for a chance to participate.  In any definition this constitutes gambling I think it’s the definition of gambling that likely is the final factor. IMHO, gambling is the risk of money to gain something of value (ie more money, prizes, etc.). In the case of IMH, you don’t win anything. You become elligible to participate, although you still must qualify and you still must pay the entry fee. I think that’s where the fine line is drawn. But, hey, I’m no lawyer, just a computer geek.

You absolutely win something of value. Oh, and while I was re-reading this post, a thought crossed my mind. How about mail-in sweepstakes, like the publishers clearing house? You don’t have to buy a magazine, but it does cost you a stamp (or the cost of an internet connection to enter online).

A stamp is payment for a letter delivery service, not payment to PCH for a chance.  Same with an internet connection.  This is a silly arugment. I can understand the desire to weed out applicants that are not serious, which could easily be acomplished by charging an entry fee that is RETURNED if you do not get chosen. That’s a good suggestion. However, there are costs involved with the processing. So, perhaps there would be a non-refundable processing fee — say, $5.00.

Actually I can’t see $5.00 worth of costs here.  It’s all pretty much an electronic drop a name in a hat…

Response:

So if this is illegal, is it also illegal for universities and colleges to charge an application fee when acceptance is not guaranteed? What about having to pay a lawyer when there’s no guarantee  of winning the case?, etc

You’re not paying the university for a random chance of admission, you’re paying them to exam your credentials and make a decision. However, I think it’s fair to expect they actually do have an intention of considering you.  Based on a friend’s experience with medical schools, they appear happy to send out a second application (with a second fee) to everyone under the sun, even though virtually none will make it to the 3rd phase of interviews.  Quite a scam.   — Jason O’Rourke www.jor.com

Response:

I wasn’t under the impression you still had to qualify if you got a lottery slot. Qualifying, by definition, is winning a regular slot.

OK, maybe I used the wrong term. According to http://vnews.ironmanlive.com/vnews/information/lotteryinfo lottery winners must "validate" their slot by completing a 1/2 or full IM prior to IMH. David / FEY2K IMCAL2000 16:53 I hate junk email. I’m trying VERY hard to avoid it with my new ISP. So, to reach me, reply to wuth followed by grp, all as one word (ie namegrp) at bellsouth dot net. Let’s see any bot figure out how to get my email from that!

Response:

Hmmm go ahead and file a suit….  maybe cause the sponsors to pull out…  If you do not like the lottery system get off your ass and train..EARN your entry…

Response:

You are paying for a service.  Someone has to review your information to see if you qualify.  There is a real cost to the university here and they are recouping their money.  I suppose the same argument could be made for the lottery, but I seriously doubt any court would buy it, especially since the WTC has no actual costs involved with dropping your name into a hat. The real difference however is that the example you are indicating is not gambling.  Gambling is defined as entering in a game of chance.  For the most part college acceptance is not a game of chance, but rather a skills based evaluation.  Generally you know going in if you have the skills/grades/test scores necessary to get in.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So if this is illegal, is it also illegal for universities and colleges to charge an application fee when acceptance is not guaranteed? What about having to pay a lawyer when there’s no guarantee  of winning the case?, etc …. Dan I guess you don’t understand that that is just as illegal.  Granted kids used to sell lottery tickets all the time to raise money for various things and many small local charities do it for non profit.  Nobody really minds these offenses so they are not really messed with, but they, also are illegal.  I don’t have a problem with the lottery system.  I don’t participate because I don’t like throwing away money, but that doesn’t mean I find it offensive in any way.  What I do have a problem with is that if I were to open an internet casino that made me hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, I would go to jail.  Why should the WTC be able to do something that I cannot?  What makes them special? Have you ever bought a ticket for a chance to win a prize? Did you get your money back if you didn’t win? Whats the differance? If you don’t like the lottery system then you have the choice of not sending them your money. No one is twisting your arm! B.Oliver I think your missing the point.  The point is not how much a lottery chance compares with the cost of actually doing Hawaii, the point is that the process is almost certainly illegal.  You pay $35 for a chance to participate.  In any definition this constitutes gambling (although considering the odds, one could argue that it is more of a donation). Gambling is illegal in many states, and in those where it is legal, I’m fairly sure WTC has not actually aquired the proper licences and permits to operate a paramutal betting establishment.  The govenment actively goes after internet casinos, forceing them to operate off shore.  The Hawaii lottery is internet gambling and should be stopped. I can understand the desire to weed out applicants that are not serious, which could easily be acomplished by charing an entry fee that is RETURNED if you do not get chosen. James What would you prefer? That they auction these slots off to the highest bidder? I’m sure that would raise a lot more money than the current system. Besides, given the costs of the entry fee, plane ticket(s), lodging etc. associated with going to IMH, these lottery costs are trivial.  Let me guess, you’re a lawyer? It is disappointing to see how WTC is blatantly marketing the Hawaii lottery. It sort of cheapens the Ironman when you see the lottery so heavily promoted on their website and via mass emails. Of course at $35 a pop, I guess you can see why.  If 3,000 athletes apply, that is over $100,000 in revenue.  And if half opt for the passport club at $50, that’s another $75,000.  Not a bad payday for very little effort! How can they justify a $35 non-refundable lottery application fee (other than supply and demand)? Can this paid lottery be legal in all 50 states?  Do we have any D.A.’s out there that can fill us in on the legality of this? Gregg

Response:

You are paying for a service.  Someone has to review your information to see if you qualify.  There is a real cost to the university here and they are recouping their money.  I suppose the same argument could be made for the lottery, but I seriously doubt any court would buy it, especially since the WTC has no actual costs involved with dropping your name into a hat. The real difference however is that the example you are indicating is not gambling.  Gambling is defined as entering in a game of chance.  For the most part college acceptance is not a game of chance, but rather a skills based evaluation.  Generally you know going in if you have the skills/grades/test scores necessary to get in.

This is certainly *NOT* true across the board. There’s always an element of uncertainty in such applications. Many borderline people "gamble" by applying to Harvard. Some of them get in, but most of them don’t, even though they have roughly similar qualifications. I got into the University of Chicago but got wait-listed at Northwestern, which is a good school but which has nowhere near the reputation of Chicago. If I had been told I’d only get into one of the two, I’d have been sure it was the opposite. But back to the issue of the Ironman lottery: Whoever started this thread claimed that the lottery was almost certainly illegal, but they offered no clear justification of this claim. Why don’t you do some homework and see if you can back up this claim? Until then, I’m going to assume it’s legal since I’ve seen no evidence to the contrary. -Harold

Response:

Have you ever bought a ticket for a chance to win a prize? Did you get your money back if you didn’t win? Whats the differance? If you don’t like the

While charity raffles are common, they often run afoul of state laws on gaming.  Enforcement of them against churches is uncommon.   — Jason O’Rourke www.jor.com

Response:

I wasn’t under the impression you still had to qualify if you got a lottery slot. Qualifying, by definition, is winning a regular slot. JJ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think your missing the point.  The point is not how much a lottery chance compares with the cost of actually doing Hawaii, the point is that the process is almost certainly illegal.  You pay $35 for a chance to participate.  In any definition this constitutes gambling I think it’s the definition of gambling that likely is the final factor. IMHO, gambling is the risk of money to gain something of value (ie more money, prizes, etc.). In the case of IMH, you don’t win anything. You become elligible to participate, although you still must qualify and you still must pay the entry fee. I think that’s where the fine line is drawn. But, hey, I’m no lawyer, just a computer geek. Oh, and while I was re-reading this post, a thought crossed my mind. How about mail-in sweepstakes, like the publishers clearing house? You don’t have to buy a magazine, but it does cost you a stamp (or the cost of an internet connection to enter online).

Response:

But you ARE winning something of value. In fact, you could auction off IMH slots to determine their true dollar value. Even though you have to pay the entry fee, the spot itself is worth $$. Do the winners of those spots get 1090s so they can be taxed on their winnings? Of course not, but shouldn’t they? You win a trip and you sure get one.  And as far as the Publisher’s

You win an opportunity, not an actual prize.  While many would value it highly, it is not a prize in any taxable sense because you can’t buy it.  And you then have to pay for the trip and entry fee, and if I’m not mistaken, complete a half or full IM event beforehand.  In that sense, David may be right in that they escape legal issues of a lottery or raffle, which many states do not allow. — Jason O’Rourke www.jor.com

Response:

So if this is illegal, is it also illegal for universities and colleges to charge an application fee when acceptance is not guaranteed? What about having to pay a lawyer when there’s no guarantee  of winning the case?, etc …. Dan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I guess you don’t understand that that is just as illegal.  Granted kids used to sell lottery tickets all the time to raise money for various things and many small local charities do it for non profit.  Nobody really minds these offenses so they are not really messed with, but they, also are illegal.  I don’t have a problem with the lottery system.  I don’t participate because I don’t like throwing away money, but that doesn’t mean I find it offensive in any way.  What I do have a problem with is that if I were to open an internet casino that made me hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, I would go to jail.  Why should the WTC be able to do something that I cannot?  What makes them special? Have you ever bought a ticket for a chance to win a prize? Did you get your money back if you didn’t win? Whats the differance? If you don’t like the lottery system then you have the choice of not sending them your money. No one is twisting your arm! B.Oliver I think your missing the point.  The point is not how much a lottery chance compares with the cost of actually doing Hawaii, the point is that the process is almost certainly illegal.  You pay $35 for a chance to participate.  In any definition this constitutes gambling (although considering the odds, one could argue that it is more of a donation). Gambling is illegal in many states, and in those where it is legal, I’m fairly sure WTC has not actually aquired the proper licences and permits to operate a paramutal betting establishment.  The govenment actively goes after internet casinos, forceing them to operate off shore.  The Hawaii lottery is internet gambling and should be stopped. I can understand the desire to weed out applicants that are not serious, which could easily be acomplished by charing an entry fee that is RETURNED if you do not get chosen. James What would you prefer? That they auction these slots off to the highest bidder? I’m sure that would raise a lot more money than the current system. Besides, given the costs of the entry fee, plane ticket(s), lodging etc. associated with going to IMH, these lottery costs are trivial.  Let me guess, you’re a lawyer? It is disappointing to see how WTC is blatantly marketing the Hawaii lottery. It sort of cheapens the Ironman when you see the lottery so heavily promoted on their website and via mass emails. Of course at $35 a pop, I guess you can see why.  If 3,000 athletes apply, that is over $100,000 in revenue.  And if half opt for the passport club at $50, that’s another $75,000.  Not a bad payday for very little effort! How can they justify a $35 non-refundable lottery application fee (other than supply and demand)? Can this paid lottery be legal in all 50 states?  Do we have any D.A.’s out there that can fill us in on the legality of this? Gregg

Response:

But you ARE winning something of value. In fact, you could auction off IMH slots to determine their true dollar value. Even though you have to pay the entry fee, the spot itself is worth $$. Do the winners of those spots get 1090s so they can be taxed on their winnings? Of course not, but shouldn’t they? You win a trip and you sure get one.  And as far as the Publisher’s Clearinghouse and others are concerned, they probably have taken the time to make sure they have the t’s crossed and i’s dotted in every state where they do business. We/I doubt WTC has done same. I think gambling, all gambling, should be legalized, in all its forms. It is only illegal so it can be taxed where it has been made legal, and confiscated where it has not and been caught. Legalize it and tax it like any other product. Should go for the IMH lottery too. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think your missing the point.  The point is not how much a lottery chance compares with the cost of actually doing Hawaii, the point is that the process is almost certainly illegal.  You pay $35 for a chance to participate.  In any definition this constitutes gambling I think it’s the definition of gambling that likely is the final factor. IMHO, gambling is the risk of money to gain something of value (ie more money, prizes, etc.). In the case of IMH, you don’t win anything. You become elligible to participate, although you still must qualify and you still must pay the entry fee. I think that’s where the fine line is drawn. But, hey, I’m no lawyer, just a computer geek. Oh, and while I was re-reading this post, a thought crossed my mind. How about mail-in sweepstakes, like the publishers clearing house? You don’t have to buy a magazine, but it does cost you a stamp (or the cost of an internet connection to enter online). The Hawaii lottery is internet gambling and should be stopped. I disagree that it should be stopped. **IF** it is gambling, then it should abide by normal regulations. But, I would not want to see it stopped. I can understand the desire to weed out applicants that are not serious, which could easily be acomplished by charging an entry fee that is RETURNED if you do not get chosen. That’s a good suggestion. However, there are costs involved with the processing. So, perhaps there would be a non-refundable processing fee — say, $5.00. David / FEY2K IMCAL2000 16:53 I hate junk email. I’m trying VERY hard to avoid it with my new ISP. So, to reach me, reply to wuth followed by grp, all as one word (ie namegrp) at bellsouth dot net. Let’s see any bot figure out how to get my email from that!

Response:

I guess you don’t understand that that is just as illegal.  Granted kids used to sell lottery tickets all the time to raise money for various things and many small local charities do it for non profit.  Nobody really minds these offenses so they are not really messed with, but they, also are illegal.  I don’t have a problem with the lottery system.  I don’t participate because I don’t like throwing away money, but that doesn’t mean I find it offensive in any way.  What I do have a problem with is that if I were to open an internet casino that made me hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, I would go to jail.  Why should the WTC be able to do something that I cannot?  What makes them special?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Have you ever bought a ticket for a chance to win a prize? Did you get your money back if you didn’t win? Whats the differance? If you don’t like the lottery system then you have the choice of not sending them your money. No one is twisting your arm! B.Oliver I think your missing the point.  The point is not how much a lottery chance compares with the cost of actually doing Hawaii, the point is that the process is almost certainly illegal.  You pay $35 for a chance to participate.  In any definition this constitutes gambling (although considering the odds, one could argue that it is more of a donation). Gambling is illegal in many states, and in those where it is legal, I’m fairly sure WTC has not actually aquired the proper licences and permits to operate a paramutal betting establishment.  The govenment actively goes after internet casinos, forceing them to operate off shore.  The Hawaii lottery is internet gambling and should be stopped. I can understand the desire to weed out applicants that are not serious, which could easily be acomplished by charing an entry fee that is RETURNED if you do not get chosen. James What would you prefer? That they auction these slots off to the highest bidder? I’m sure that would raise a lot more money than the current system. Besides, given the costs of the entry fee, plane ticket(s), lodging etc. associated with going to IMH, these lottery costs are trivial.  Let me guess, you’re a lawyer? It is disappointing to see how WTC is blatantly marketing the Hawaii lottery. It sort of cheapens the Ironman when you see the lottery so heavily promoted on their website and via mass emails. Of course at $35 a pop, I guess you can see why.  If 3,000 athletes apply, that is over $100,000 in revenue.  And if half opt for the passport club at $50, that’s another $75,000.  Not a bad payday for very little effort! How can they justify a $35 non-refundable lottery application fee (other than supply and demand)? Can this paid lottery be legal in all 50 states?  Do we have any D.A.’s out there that can fill us in on the legality of this? Gregg

Response:

Maybe there’s a fine line here that you’re applying for a chance to attend an event which will cost you even more money, much like your college analogy. In a true lottery there’s a prize with no additional cost. Therefore the proceeds of the gamble are other than monetary.  I don’t know if I buy my own argument but I’m sure some WTC lawyer would be willing to take it up.  Most likely nobody has bothered to challenge it so it’s under the radar screen. JJ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So if this is illegal, is it also illegal for universities and colleges to charge an application fee when acceptance is not guaranteed? What about having to pay a lawyer when there’s no guarantee  of winning the case?, etc …. Dan

Response:

I think your missing the point.  The point is not how much a lottery chance compares with the cost of actually doing Hawaii, the point is that the process is almost certainly illegal.  You pay $35 for a chance to participate.  In any definition this constitutes gambling

I think it’s the definition of gambling that likely is the final factor. IMHO, gambling is the risk of money to gain something of value (ie more money, prizes, etc.). In the case of IMH, you don’t win anything. You become elligible to participate, although you still must qualify and you still must pay the entry fee. I think that’s where the fine line is drawn. But, hey, I’m no lawyer, just a computer geek. Oh, and while I was re-reading this post, a thought crossed my mind. How about mail-in sweepstakes, like the publishers clearing house? You don’t have to buy a magazine, but it does cost you a stamp (or the cost of an internet connection to enter online). The Hawaii lottery is internet gambling and should be stopped.

I disagree that it should be stopped. **IF** it is gambling, then it should abide by normal regulations. But, I would not want to see it stopped. I can understand the desire to weed out applicants that are not serious, which could easily be acomplished by charging an entry fee that is RETURNED if you do not get chosen.

That’s a good suggestion. However, there are costs involved with the processing. So, perhaps there would be a non-refundable processing fee — say, $5.00. David / FEY2K IMCAL2000 16:53 I hate junk email. I’m trying VERY hard to avoid it with my new ISP. So, to reach me, reply to wuth followed by grp, all as one word (ie namegrp) at bellsouth dot net. Let’s see any bot figure out how to get my email from that!

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James, your argument makes perfect sense to me. I have wondered before about this very thing, and wonder how long it will be before a lottery loser sues WTC and the whole lottery thing dries up. It will happen, because it is undoubtedly illegal, as you point out, and someone will sue over it. The bummer for me, is that rather than return the money to the losers, WTC will surely just close up the lottery, no matter what the creators of Ironman had intended it for. Then BOP’rs like me will never get to go there. Why should they deal with the hassle if they don’t make any money on it? I wouldn’t. We have a WTC front office’r here on RST,  Tracey K –  anyone ever brought this up? Dan? Emilio? Katherine? Paula? I find this very interesting! The Old Timer

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I guess you don’t understand that that is just as illegal.  Granted kids used to sell lottery tickets all the time to raise money for various things and many small local charities do it for non profit.  Nobody really minds these offenses so they are not really messed with, but they, also are illegal.  I don’t have a problem with the lottery system.  I don’t participate because I don’t like throwing away money, but that doesn’t mean I find it offensive in any way.  What I do have a problem with is that if I were to open an internet casino that made me hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, I would go to jail.  Why should the WTC be able to do something that I cannot?  What makes them special? Have you ever bought a ticket for a chance to win a prize? Did you get your money back if you didn’t win? Whats the differance? If you don’t like the lottery system then you have the choice of not sending them your money. No one is twisting your arm! B.Oliver I think your missing the point.  The point is not how much a lottery chance compares with the cost of actually doing Hawaii, the point is that the process is almost certainly illegal.  You pay $35 for a chance to participate.  In any definition this constitutes gambling (although considering the odds, one could argue that it is more of a donation). Gambling is illegal in many states, and in those where it is legal, I’m fairly sure WTC has not actually aquired the proper licences and permits to operate a paramutal betting establishment.  The govenment actively goes after internet casinos, forceing them to operate off shore.  The Hawaii lottery is internet gambling and should be stopped. I can understand the desire to weed out applicants that are not serious, which could easily be acomplished by charing an entry fee that is RETURNED if you do not get chosen. James What would you prefer? That they auction these slots off to the highest bidder? I’m sure that would raise a lot more money than the current system. Besides, given the costs of the entry fee, plane ticket(s), lodging etc. associated with going to IMH, these lottery costs are trivial.  Let me guess, you’re a lawyer? It is disappointing to see how WTC is blatantly marketing the Hawaii lottery. It sort of cheapens the Ironman when you see the lottery so heavily promoted on their website and via mass emails. Of course at $35 a pop, I guess you can see why.  If 3,000 athletes apply, that is over $100,000 in revenue.  And if half opt for the passport club at $50, that’s another $75,000.  Not a bad payday for very little effort! How can they justify a $35 non-refundable lottery application fee (other than supply and demand)? Can this paid lottery be legal in all 50 states?  Do we have any D.A.’s out there that can fill us in on the legality of this? Gregg

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Have you ever bought a ticket for a chance to win a prize? Did you get your money back if you didn’t win? Whats the differance? If you don’t like the lottery system then you have the choice of not sending them your money. No one is twisting your arm! B.Oliver – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I think your missing the point.  The point is not how much a lottery chance compares with the cost of actually doing Hawaii, the point is that the process is almost certainly illegal.  You pay $35 for a chance to participate.  In any definition this constitutes gambling (although considering the odds, one could argue that it is more of a donation). Gambling is illegal in many states, and in those where it is legal, I’m fairly sure WTC has not actually aquired the proper licences and permits to operate a paramutal betting establishment.  The govenment actively goes after internet casinos, forceing them to operate off shore.  The Hawaii lottery is internet gambling and should be stopped. I can understand the desire to weed out applicants that are not serious, which could easily be acomplished by charing an entry fee that is RETURNED if you do not get chosen. James What would you prefer? That they auction these slots off to the highest bidder? I’m sure that would raise a lot more money than the current system.  Besides, given the costs of the entry fee, plane ticket(s), lodging etc. associated with going to IMH, these lottery costs are trivial.  Let me guess, you’re a lawyer? It is disappointing to see how WTC is blatantly marketing the Hawaii lottery. It sort of cheapens the Ironman when you see the lottery so heavily promoted on their website and via mass emails. Of course at $35 a pop, I guess you can see why.  If 3,000 athletes apply, that is over $100,000 in revenue.  And if half opt for the passport club at $50, that’s another $75,000.  Not a bad payday for very little effort! How can they justify a $35 non-refundable lottery application fee (other than supply and demand)? Can this paid lottery be legal in all 50 states?  Do we have any D.A.’s out there that can fill us in on the legality of this? Gregg

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I think your missing the point.  The point is not how much a lottery chance compares with the cost of actually doing Hawaii, the point is that the process is almost certainly illegal.  You pay $35 for a chance to participate.  In any definition this constitutes gambling (although considering the odds, one could argue that it is more of a donation). Gambling is illegal in many states, and in those where it is legal, I’m fairly sure WTC has not actually aquired the proper licences and permits to operate a paramutal betting establishment.  The govenment actively goes after internet casinos, forceing them to operate off shore.  The Hawaii lottery is internet gambling and should be stopped. I can understand the desire to weed out applicants that are not serious, which could easily be acomplished by charing an entry fee that is RETURNED if you do not get chosen. James

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What would you prefer? That they auction these slots off to the highest bidder? I’m sure that would raise a lot more money than the current system.  Besides, given the costs of the entry fee, plane ticket(s), lodging etc. associated with going to IMH, these lottery costs are trivial.  Let me guess, you’re a lawyer? It is disappointing to see how WTC is blatantly marketing the Hawaii lottery. It sort of cheapens the Ironman when you see the lottery so heavily promoted on their website and via mass emails. Of course at $35 a pop, I guess you can see why.  If 3,000 athletes apply, that is over $100,000 in revenue.  And if half opt for the passport club at $50, that’s another $75,000.  Not a bad payday for very little effort! How can they justify a $35 non-refundable lottery application fee (other than supply and demand)? Can this paid lottery be legal in all 50 states?  Do we have any D.A.’s out there that can fill us in on the legality of this? Gregg

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What would you prefer? That they auction these slots off to the highest bidder? I’m sure that would raise a lot more money than the current system.  Besides, given the costs of the entry fee, plane ticket(s), lodging etc. associated with going to IMH, these lottery costs are trivial.  Let me guess, you’re a lawyer? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It is disappointing to see how WTC is blatantly marketing the Hawaii lottery. It sort of cheapens the Ironman when you see the lottery so heavily promoted on their website and via mass emails. Of course at $35 a pop, I guess you can see why.  If 3,000 athletes apply, that is over $100,000 in revenue.  And if half opt for the passport club at $50, that’s another $75,000.  Not a bad payday for very little effort! How can they justify a $35 non-refundable lottery application fee (other than supply and demand)? Can this paid lottery be legal in all 50 states?  Do we have any D.A.’s out there that can fill us in on the legality of this? Gregg

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It is disappointing to see how WTC is blatantly marketing the Hawaii lottery. It sort of cheapens the Ironman when you see the lottery so heavily promoted on their website and via mass emails. Of course at $35 a pop, I guess you can see why.  If 3,000 athletes apply, that is over $100,000 in revenue.  And if half opt for the passport club at $50, that’s another $75,000.  Not a bad payday for very little effort! How can they justify a $35 non-refundable lottery application fee (other than supply and demand)? Can this paid lottery be legal in all 50 states?  Do we have any D.A.’s out there that can fill us in on the legality of this? Gregg

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