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Typical # Hours to get Complex Rating

Question:

: 1) Remember to put the gear down : 2) Constant speed prop : 3) Remember to put the gear down : 4) Piper’s performance graphs vs. Cessna’s performance tables : 5) Remember to put the gear down : 6) Emergency gear extension : 7) Remember to put the gear down : 8) Other than remembering to put the gear down, I think that’s about it Not a lot of people know this, but GUMP does not actually stand for Gas, Undercarriage, Mixture Prop. It actually stands for: G: Gear down U: Undercarriage down M: Mainwheels down P: Put the gear down — Dylan Smith, Houston TX. Flying: http://www.alioth.net/flying Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net "Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No, it sounds like a silly plan to me. A 172 and an Arrow don’t differ that much in performance or handling. If you already know how to fly a 172, your Arrow transition should concentrate almost exclusively on the systems difference.  They are: 1) Remember to put the gear down 2) Constant speed prop 3) Remember to put the gear down 4) Piper’s performance graphs vs. Cessna’s performance tables 5) Remember to put the gear down 6) Emergency gear extension 7) Remember to put the gear down 8) Other than remembering to put the gear down, I think that’s about it Spending some time doing maneuvers is not a bad thing, as a general "get the feel of the plane" kind of thing.  Certainly the stalls will feel different than they do in the 172.  Things like stalls and slow flight will also introduce you to the Arrow’s "auto gear extend" system (i.e. it’ll try to do it when you enter slow flight). But steep turns and ground ref maneuvers and chandelles and the like (if you’ve done those) will be pretty much the same as they were in the 172. You won’t learn much by spending a lot of time doing those things.  What you do need to do is spend a lot of time practicing takeoffs and landings, to make sure the gear-up/gear-down routine is well programmed. The cross-country time will be pretty much a waste.  There’s nothing to learn about flying an Arrow by flying cross-countries that you don’t already know, other than to remember to put the gear down at the end of the trip.

Well, it’s all moot now, anyways.  I just got a call from a guy at the flight school.  Turns out they have a 125 hour total time requirement he didn’t know about.  Oh well, I guess that $500 I had set aside to start the checkout can be used to build my hours in a 172.  :-( –Tim Howell :-) — The Rules Have Changed…Get Paid to Surf the Web! http://www.alladvantage.com/go.asp?refid=GRO506

Response:

Roy, you forgot about putting the gear down. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think that my training is going to be one day maneuvers, then the rest of the time cross country.  Does this sound like a reasonable plan? No, it sounds like a silly plan to me. A 172 and an Arrow don’t differ that much in performance or handling. If you already know how to fly a 172, your Arrow transition should concentrate almost exclusively on the systems difference.  They are: 1) Remember to put the gear down 2) Constant speed prop 3) Remember to put the gear down 4) Piper’s performance graphs vs. Cessna’s performance tables 5) Remember to put the gear down 6) Emergency gear extension 7) Remember to put the gear down 8) Other than remembering to put the gear down, I think that’s about it Spending some time doing maneuvers is not a bad thing, as a general "get the feel of the plane" kind of thing.  Certainly the stalls will feel different than they do in the 172.  Things like stalls and slow flight will also introduce you to the Arrow’s "auto gear extend" system (i.e. it’ll try to do it when you enter slow flight). But steep turns and ground ref maneuvers and chandelles and the like (if you’ve done those) will be pretty much the same as they were in the 172. You won’t learn much by spending a lot of time doing those things.  What you do need to do is spend a lot of time practicing takeoffs and landings, to make sure the gear-up/gear-down routine is well programmed. The cross-country time will be pretty much a waste.  There’s nothing to learn about flying an Arrow by flying cross-countries that you don’t already know, other than to remember to put the gear down at the end of the trip. — Roy Smith, CFI-ASE-IA

Response:

It all depends on the insurance company. Because I had less than 50 hours retract time, I couldn’t just get a simple checkout in the club’s Bonanza – I had to do some minimum mandated amount of dual. Five hours worth, to be precise. The insurance did say I had to fly 5 more hours solo in the Bonanza before taking passengers though. I filled this in with a couple of short trips plus some formation flying, and learning how to make the best of the Bonanza’s performance (people might be surprised, but I’ve found the Bo to be an excellent short field performer).

I’ve got about 70 hours total, all of it in C-172s.  On Wednesday I’m starting a checkout in a Piper Arrow II at the other FBO at Fullerton. Since I have no complex/retract time, I have to do 5 hours dual, but then I’m free to rent it. –Tim Howell :-) — The Rules Have Changed…Get Paid to Surf the Web! http://www.alladvantage.com/go.asp?refid=GRO506

Response:

I’ve got about 70 hours total, all of it in C-172s.  On Wednesday I’m starting a checkout in a Piper Arrow II at the other FBO at Fullerton. Since I have no complex/retract time, I have to do 5 hours dual, but then I’m free to rent it.

5 hours seems to be pretty typical for inital retract transition training at most FBOs, at least for a relatively simple "complex" plane like an Arrow or a 172RG. My club is stricter — if you join the club with 50 or more hours of retract time, you can get checked out in our Arrow or Debonair with just 5 hours.  If you have less than 50, you need a 10 hour checkout.  I believe this is mandated by our insurance. — Roy Smith, CFI-ASE-IA

Response:

5 hours seems to be pretty typical for inital retract transition training at most FBOs, at least for a relatively simple "complex" plane like an Arrow or a 172RG.

I think that my training is going to be one day maneuvers, then the rest of the time cross country.  Does this sound like a reasonable plan? With any luck, I should be able to get quite a few landings done in that amound of time. –Tim — The Rules Have Changed…Get Paid to Surf the Web! http://www.alladvantage.com/go.asp?refid=GRO506

Response:

I think that my training is going to be one day maneuvers, then the rest of the time cross country.  Does this sound like a reasonable plan?

No, it sounds like a silly plan to me. A 172 and an Arrow don’t differ that much in performance or handling.   If you already know how to fly a 172, your Arrow transition should concentrate almost exclusively on the systems difference.  They are: 1) Remember to put the gear down 2) Constant speed prop 3) Remember to put the gear down 4) Piper’s performance graphs vs. Cessna’s performance tables 5) Remember to put the gear down 6) Emergency gear extension 7) Remember to put the gear down 8) Other than remembering to put the gear down, I think that’s about it Spending some time doing maneuvers is not a bad thing, as a general "get the feel of the plane" kind of thing.  Certainly the stalls will feel different than they do in the 172.  Things like stalls and slow flight will also introduce you to the Arrow’s "auto gear extend" system (i.e. it’ll try to do it when you enter slow flight). But steep turns and ground ref maneuvers and chandelles and the like (if you’ve done those) will be pretty much the same as they were in the 172.   You won’t learn much by spending a lot of time doing those things.  What you do need to do is spend a lot of time practicing takeoffs and landings, to make sure the gear-up/gear-down routine is well programmed. The cross-country time will be pretty much a waste.  There’s nothing to learn about flying an Arrow by flying cross-countries that you don’t already know, other than to remember to put the gear down at the end of the trip. — Roy Smith, CFI-ASE-IA

Response:

Before the standards for take-off performance data changes Beech published short field TO data for the BE95-55 and BE55 that were very short because you lifted off about 25 knots below Vmca. The Performance published is not what can be done by a test pilot under the extreme but what an average pilot should be able to do under stated conditions.  Most people do not reach that performance level, nor is there a need to do so. — Jim Macklin ATP, CFI-ASMEI, A&P

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : They set a high number because it keeps the pilot in the training : environment : longer.  Safety is highest in the training environment because there is no : pressure to get anywhere on any kind of schedule. It all depends on the insurance company. Because I had less than 50 hours retract time, I couldn’t just get a simple checkout in the club’s Bonanza – I had to do some minimum mandated amount of dual. Five hours worth, to be precise. The insurance did say I had to fly 5 more hours solo in the Bonanza before taking passengers though. I filled this in with a couple of short trips plus some formation flying, and learning how to make the best of the Bonanza’s performance (people might be surprised, but I’ve found the Bo to be an excellent short field performer). — Dylan Smith, Houston TX. Flying: http://www.alioth.net/flying Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net "Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

Response:

FAR 61.31 doesn’t give a specified number of hours.  It’s up to the instructor to decide when your proficient in the operation of a complex airplane.  At the place where I rent, they required 5 hours in the plane to meet insurance requirements, thus I was able to do the insurance requirement and the procifiency work in the same 5 hours. Ed – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am looking into flying a Cessna Cardinal RG and was curious as to how many hours of instruction I’ll probably need to get rated to fly the retractable constant speed prop setup. Also, if I were to own, what would the insurance company probably look for as far as minimum time to be insurable? Currently I am a low time Private pilot working on my instrument rating. Thanks for the help.

Response:

I’m same situation as you, except the plane is a Mooney, 180 hp complex. With no prior retract time, FBO insurance needs 15 hrs w/ CFI. Stan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am looking into flying a Cessna Cardinal RG and was curious as to how many hours of instruction I’ll probably need to get rated to fly the retractable constant speed prop setup. Also, if I were to own, what would the insurance company probably look for as far as minimum time to be insurable? Currently I am a low time Private pilot working on my instrument rating. Thanks for the help.

Response:

I am looking into flying a Cessna Cardinal RG and was curious as to how many hours of instruction I’ll probably need to get rated to fly the retractable constant speed prop setup.

I think I spent four in an Arrow. That was just to get a complex sign-off (not insurance minimums) so I could start instrument training in a Bonanza with a throwover. John – N8086N Big brother is watching. Disable cookies in your web browser. Wise man says "Never use a bank with the initials F. U." Are you interested in a professional society or guild for programmers? Want to fight section 1706? See www.programmersguild.org Newsgroup: us.issues.occupations.computer-programmers EMail Address:

Response:

  Below I have copied the latest information from the AOPA website and included the URL.    It does appear that dual controls are required but dual brakes are not. The links to official FAA pages are on the page if you use the link. — Jim Macklin ATP, CFI-ASMEI, A&P  http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/regulatory/regdual.html  Regulatory Brief FAA issues new interpretation of "dual controls" The issue: On Thursday April 27, 2000, the FAA issued yet another interpretation of "dual controls." The latest interpretation is intended to clarify whether or not dual toe-brakes are required under part 91 of the Federal Aviation Regulations in aircraft being used for dual instruction. Although the FAA’s most recent letter of interpretation ends the debate over dual toe-brakes for part 91 operations, it’s unclear whether or not the new interpretation applies to part 61 regulatory requirements for aircraft being used for flight instructor practical tests. The importance to our members: Most of the Mooney M20 series airplanes, many Beech Bonanza models, Beech Barons, Piper Apaches, and many other high and low performance single and twin engine airplanes are certified as "dual control" without being equipped with dual toe-brakes. A series of recently issued FAA letters of interpretation stated that such airplanes could not be used for flight instruction because they did not meet the regulatory requirements of 14 C.F.R.

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