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OT: Bush's 1984 – Secret Patriot Act II prepared by Ashcroft

Question:

" -Under Section 501 a US citizen engaging in lawful activities can be grabbed off the street and thrown into a van never to be seen again. The Justice Department states that they can do this because the person "had inferred from conduct" that they were not a US citizen. Remember Section 802 of the First USA Patriot Act states that any violation of Federal or State law can result in the "enemy combatant" terrorist designation. -"                                     Justice Dept. Drafts Sweeping Expansion of Anti-Terrorism Act The Center for Public Integrity Publishes Secret Draft of ‘Patriot II’ Legislation By Charles Lewis and Adam Mayle www.public-i.org/dtaweb/report.asp?ReportID=502&L1=10&L2=10&L3=0&L4=0… (WASHINGTON, Feb. 7, 2003) — The Bush Administration is preparing a bold, comprehensive sequel to the USA Patriot Act passed in the wake of September 11, 2001, which will give the government broad, sweeping new powers to increase domestic intelligence-gathering, surveillance and law enforcement prerogatives, and simultaneously decrease judicial review and public access to information. The Center for Public Integrity has obtained a draft, dated January 9, 2003, of this previously undisclosed legislation and is making it available in full text at: http://www.publicintegrity.org/dtaweb/downloads/Story_01_020703_Doc_1… (12 MB). The bill, drafted by the staff of Attorney General John Ashcroft and entitled the Domestic Security Enhancement Act of 2003, has not been officially released by the Department of Justice, although rumors of its development have circulated around the Capitol for the last few months under the name of "the Patriot Act II" in legislative parlance. "We haven’t heard anything from the Justice Department on updating the Patriot Act," House Judiciary Committee spokesman Jeff Lungren told the Center. "They haven’t shared their thoughts on that. Obviously, we’d be interested, but we haven’t heard anything at this point." Senior members of the Senate Judiciary Committee minority staff have inquired about Patriot II for months and have been told as recently as this week that there is no such legislation being planned. Mark Corallo, deputy director of Justice’s Office of Public Affairs, told the Center his office was unaware of the draft. "I have heard people talking about revising the Patriot Act, we are looking to work on things the way we would do with any law," he said. "We may work to make modifications to protect Americans," he added. When told that the Center had a copy of the draft legislation, he said, "This is all news to me. I have never heard of this." After the Center posted this story, Barbara Comstock, director of public affairs for the Justice Dept., released a statement  saying that, "Department staff have not presented any final proposals to either the Attorney General or the White House. It would be premature to speculate on any future decisions, particularly ideas or proposals that are still being discussed at staff levels." An Office of Legislative Affairs "control sheet"  that was obtained by the PBS program "Now With Bill Moyers" seems to indicate that a copy of the bill was sent to Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert and Vice President Richard Cheney on Jan. 10, 2003. "Attached for your review and comment is a draft legislative proposal entitled the ‘Domestice Security Enhancement Act of 2003,’" the memo, sent from "OLP" or Office of Legal Policy, says. Comstock later told the Center that the draft "is an early discussion draft and it has not been sent to either the Vice President or the Speaker of the House." Dr. David Cole, Georgetown University Law professor and author of Terrorism and the Constitution, reviewed the draft legislation at the request of the Center, and said that the legislation "raises a lot of serious concerns. It’s troubling that they have gotten this far along and they’ve been telling people there is nothing in the works." This proposed law, he added, "would radically expand law enforcement and intelligence gathering authorities, reduce or eliminate judicial oversight over surveillance, authorize secret arrests, create a DNA database based on unchecked executive ’suspicion,’ create new death penalties, and even seek to take American citizenship away from persons who belong to or support disfavored political groups. SPECIFIC SECTIONS OF ‘Patriot II’ – commentary by Alex Jones SECTION 501 (Expatriation of Terrorists) expands the Bush administration’s "enemy combatant" definition to all American citizens who "may" have violated any provision of Section 802 of the first Patriot Act. (Section 802 is the new definition of domestic terrorism, and the definition is "any action that endangers human life that is a violation of any Federal or State law.") Section 501 of the second Patriot Act directly connects to Section 125 of the same act. The Justice Department boldly claims that the incredibly broad Section 802 of the First USA Patriot Act isn’t broad enough and that a new, unlimited definition of terrorism is needed. Under Section 501 a US citizen engaging in lawful activities can be grabbed off the street and thrown into a van never to be seen again. The Justice Department states that they can do this because the person "had inferred from conduct" that they were not a US citizen. Remember Section 802 of the First USA Patriot Act states that any violation of Federal or State law can result in the "enemy combatant" terrorist designation. SECTION 201 of the second Patriot Act makes it a criminal act for any member of the government or any citizen to release any information concerning the incarceration or whereabouts of detainees. It also states that law enforcement does not even have to tell the press who they have arrested and they never have to release the names. SECTION 301 and 306 (Terrorist Identification Database) set up a national database of "suspected terrorists" and radically expand the database to include anyone associated with suspected terrorist groups and anyone involved in crimes or having supported any group designated as "terrorist." These sections also set up a national DNA database for anyone on probation or who has been on probation for any crime, and orders State governments to collect the DNA for the Federal government. SECTION 312 gives immunity to law enforcement engaging in spying operations against the American people and would place substantial restrictions on court injunctions against Federal violations of civil rights across the board. SECTION 101 will designate individual terrorists as foreign powers and again strip them of all rights under the "enemy combatant" designation. SECTION 102 states clearly that any information gathering, regardless of whether or not those activities are illegal, can be considered to be clandestine intelligence activities for a foreign power. This makes news gathering illegal. SECTION 103 allows the Federal government to use wartime martial law powers domestically and internationally without Congress declaring that a state of war exists. SECTION 106 is bone-chilling in its straightforwardness. It states that broad general warrants by the secret FSIA court (a panel of secret judges set up in a star chamber system that convenes in an undisclosed location) granted under the first Patriot Act are not good enough. It states that government agents must be given immunity for carrying out searches with no prior court approval. This section throws out the entire Fourth Amendment against unreasonable searches and seizures. SECTION 109 allows secret star chamber courts to issue contempt charges against any individual or corporation who refuses to incriminate themselves or others. This sections annihilate the last vestiges of the Fifth Amendment. SECTION 110 restates that key police state clauses in the first Patriot Act were not sunsetted and removes the five year sunset clause from other subsections of the first Patriot Act. After all, the media has told us: "this is the New America. Get used to it. This is forever." SECTION 111 expands the definition of the "enemy combatant" designation. SECTION 122 restates the government’s newly announced power of "surveillance without a court order." SECTION 123 restates that the government no longer needs warrants and that the investigations can be a giant dragnet-style sweep described in press reports about the Total Information Awareness Network. One passage reads, "thus the focus of domestic surveillance may be less precise than that directed against more conventional types of crime." *Note: Over and over again, in subsection after subsection, the second Patriot Act states that its new Soviet-type powers will be used to fight international terrorism, domestic terrorism and other types of crimes. Of course the government has already announced in Section 802 of the first USA Patriot act that any crime is considered domestic terrorism. SECTION 126 grants the government the right to mine the entire spectrum of public and private sector information from bank records to educational and medical records. This is the enacting law to allow ECHELON and the Total Information Awareness Network to totally break down any and all walls of privacy. The government states that they must look at everything to "determine" if individuals or groups might have a connection to terrorist groups. As you can now see, you are guilty until proven innocent. SECTION 127 allows the government to takeover coroners’ and medical examiners’ operations whenever they see fit. See how this is like Bill Clinton’s special medical examiner he had in Arkansas that ruled that people had committed suicide when their arms and legs had been cut off. SECTION 128 allows the Federal government to place gag orders on Federal and State Grand Juries and to take over the proceedings. It also disallows individuals or organizations to even try to quash a Federal subpoena. So now … read more »

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Justice Dept. Drafts Sweeping Expansion of Anti-Terrorism Act The Center for Public Integrity Publishes Secret Draft of ‘Patriot II’ Legislation By Charles Lewis and Adam Mayle www.public-i.org/dtaweb/report.asp?ReportID=502&L1=10&L2=10&L3=0&L4=0… (WASHINGTON, Feb. 7, 2003) — The Bush Administration is preparing a bold, comprehensive sequel to the USA Patriot Act passed in the wake of September 11, 2001, which will give the government broad, sweeping new powers to increase domestic intelligence-gathering, surveillance and law enforcement prerogatives, and simultaneously decrease judicial review and public access to information. The Center for Public Integrity has obtained a draft, dated January 9, 2003, of this previously undisclosed legislation and is making it available in full text at: http://www.publicintegrity.org/dtaweb/downloads/Story_01_020703_Doc_1… (12 MB).

OK Guys, Let’s start at the beginning of the document.(yes, I downloaded the 12 meg peice) We’ll just compare what Bruce’s commentary says these articles say vs. what they actually say. I’ll stop when I get tired of it and some one else can pick it up if they wish. Shall we? SECTION 101 will designate individual terrorists as foreign powers and again strip them of all rights under the "enemy combatant" designation.

They forgot to include the phrase "who engage in international terrorism" THAT is what this section actually says. SECTION 102 states clearly that any information gathering, regardless of whether or not those activities are illegal, can be considered to be clandestine intelligence activities for a foreign power. This makes news gathering illegal.

Wrong again! What it says is that "any person who engages in clandestine intelligence gathering for a foriegn power would qualify as "an agent of a foriegn power" regardless of whether those activities are Federal crimes" .I guess it makes news gathering illegal if you are doing it secretly for a foreign government. SECTION 103 allows the Federal government to use wartime martial law powers domestically and internationally without Congress declaring that a state of war exists.

Bullshit! This article says that as war has not been declared in over 60yrs, that the provision that allows wiretaps etc. for the15 DAYS following the Congress declaring war should be ammended to allow wiretaps  etc. for 15 days after Congress authorises use of force or after an attack on the US that causes a national emergency. Beginning to look a lot like you’re up to a little propaganda, Bruce. But let’s continue. SECTION 106 is bone-chilling in its straightforwardness. It states that broad general warrants by the secret FSIA court (a panel of secret judges set up in a star chamber system that convenes in an undisclosed location) granted under the first Patriot Act are not good enough. It states that government agents must be given immunity for carrying out searches with no prior court approval. This section throws out the entire Fourth Amendment against unreasonable searches and seizures.

It says nothing like that at all. Star chambers?Secret locations? This section merely says that the "the good faith" defense  would be  available option to Fed agents who "unauthorized" while investigating under a Special order as well as under a court order. This "good faith defense" is the same protection that local and state agents have had for a long time, that protects, say a cop, or a fireman, for getting sued or charged for overhearing a conversation then acting on it if "in good faith" they believed that delay would have let the crime proceed and resulted in injury. Translation: An FBI agent who hears someone on a payphone say that he has a bomb in his backpack, can use that phone conversation as a reason to detain that person without being charged with failing to get a court order. This "good faith defense" is already available for Federal agents who are operating under court orders, this article expands that defense availability for those agents working on investigations that are not under court orders. Again, pretty much the same thing that non-federal agents have had for a while. Reads like common sense to me. Whoops!!!!! they forgot to include SECTION 108!!!! Oh, nothing important there, just a provision for defence attourneys with security clearances to be appointed for all appeals to the FISA court, so that the court is subject to the adversarial process. Nothing your propagandists can use there. SECTION 109 allows secret star chamber courts to issue contempt charges against any individual or corporation who refuses to incriminate themselves or others. This sections annihilate the last vestiges of the Fifth Amendment.

Good stretch!!!!! LOL! this really says that the Foreign Intelligence Surviellance Act (FISA) courts have the same options in regards to contempt of court charges as ANY OTHER Federal court. Bruce did you even read the draft you posted a link to? So far I see no resemblence to what the screed you posted claims. Shame on you. SHEESH!!! I’m bored with this, but I hope that any one who is tempted to take this ridiculous propaganda hack job as the truth, got enough of an idea to go to the document that is PURPORTED to be the document that the article refers to. Check it out yourself, Make up your own mind, there are too many liars on the loose for us to be lazy and take thier word. (big snip of unadulterated and shameless propaganda) CLICK HERE, READ IT YOURSELF – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – full text (12MB) at: http://www.publicintegrity.org/dtaweb/downloads/Story_01_020703_Doc_1…

Response:

I’m glad we agree. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – " -Under Section 501 a US citizen engaging in lawful activities can be grabbed off the street and thrown into a van never to be seen again. The Justice Department states that they can do this because the person "had inferred from conduct" that they were not a US citizen. Remember Section 802 of the First USA Patriot Act states that any violation of Federal or State law can result in the "enemy combatant" terrorist designation. -"                                     I’m against it just like I was against the Clinton era attempts and increased funding to beef up of NSA surveillance on communication infrastructure. April 26, 1995 Clinton Terrorism Legislation Threatens Constitutional Rights On February 10, 1995, a counterterrorism bill drafted by the Clinton Administration was introduced in the Senate as S. 390 and in the House of Representatives as H.R. 896. The Clinton bill is a mixture of: provisions eroding constitutional and statutory due process protections, selective federalization — on political grounds — of state crimes (minus state due process rules), discredited ideas from the Reagan and Bush Administrations, and the extension of some of the worst elements of crime bills of the recent past. The legislation would: authorize the Justice Department to pick and choose crimes to investigate and prosecute based on political beliefs and associations; repeal the ancient provision barring the U.S. military from civilian law enforcement; expand a pre-trial detention scheme that puts the burden of proof on the accused; loosen the carefully-crafted rules governing federal wiretaps, in violation of the Fourth Amendment; establish special courts that would use secret evidence to order the deportation of persons convicted of no crimes, in violation of basic principles of due process; permit permanent detention by the Attorney General of aliens convicted of no crimes, with no judicial review; give the President unreviewable power to criminalize fund-raising for lawful activities associated with unpopular causes; renege on the Administration’s approval in the last Congress of a provision to insure that the FBI would not investigate based on First Amendment activities; and resurrect the discredited ideological visa denial provisions of the McCarran Walter Act to bar foreign speakers. Once again, the impatience of those charged with upholding the Constitution has led them to seek authority to circumvent it. The U.S. has not been a fertile breeding ground for terrorism. Part of the reason lies in the values at the core of our unique system of governance — diversity, religious and ethnic tolerance, acceptance of change, openness to new ideas, constitutional limits on government discretion, reliance on legal proceedings open to public scrutiny. These values make it hard to nurture in the U.S. the ethnic or religious hatred that fuels much terrorism. Unfortunately, these values would be undermined by this legislation. 1. Use of Secret Evidence to Deport Aliens Not Charged with Criminal Activity Title II is a slightly modified version of a proposal first made during the Bush Administration, which Congress twice refused to enact. The changes made by the Clinton Administration do not cure the essence of the proposal: it would create a special court to hear secret evidence against aliens whom the government wishes to deport. It is important to recognize at the outset that the provision applies only to aliens who are not charged with any crime. If any person found in this country was suspected of committing a crime, especially a terrorist crime, that person would be arrested and put on trial here or extradited to a country where he could stand trial. This provision is designed to allow the government to deport persons who are deemed undesirable because of their political associations and beliefs. For the government to take adverse action against an individual based on secret evidence is the antithesis of American jurisprudence and a fundamental due process violation. Aside from the Star Chamber concept that is at the core of this provision, it has many other extraordinary features, among them the following: Use of Illegally Obtained Evidence. The provision states: "Nor shall such alien have the right to seek suppression of evidence." Repealing the exclusionary rule eviscerates the Fourth Amendment protection against unreasonable search and seizure. Exemption from FISA Standards. The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act has a meticulously crafted set of procedures intended to balance the rights of individuals against the national security. Those procedures include a requirement that the government give the defendant notice when it intends to use information from a FISA wiretap and allow the defendant to move to suppress the evidence if it was obtained illegally. The bill would make such provisions, which have worked fine in the most serious espionage cases, inapplicable in alien deportation cases. Permanent detention. If no country is willing to receive an alien ordered deported under the new provisions, the bill states that "the Attorney General may, notwithstanding any other provision of law, retain the alien in custody. … Any alien in custody pursuant to this subsection shall be released from custody solely at the discretion of the Attorney General." Appeals only in D.C.. In what appears to be either forum- shopping or an effort to impose additional costs on aliens fighting deportation, the bill would allow appeals from deportation proceedings only to the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit, forcing attorneys from all over the country to come to Washington. Guilt by Association. The legislation subtly but critically rewrites the definition of engaging in terrorist activity in the Immigration and Nationality Act, which serves as the basis for the exclusion of aliens seeking entry and the deportation of aliens already in this country. The current law defines "to engage in terrorist activity" to cover someone who "affords material support to any individual, organization, or government in conducting a terrorist activity." The revised definition would read: "affords material support to an individual, organization, or government which the actor knows or reasonably should know has committed or plans to commit terrorist activity." The change would remove the current law’s requirement that there be a nexus between the material support and the terrorist activity, thereby allowing exclusion and deportation of any alien who had supported the peaceful, legal activities of a group that engaged, or had subgroups that engaged, in illegal acts. The "has committed" language would even seem to sweep in those who support groups that once committed but have now foresworn terrorism. Guilt by Association, Part II. The bill would resurrect the discredited ideological tests of the McCarran Walter Act for denying foreign visitors visas to come to speak in the U.S. While the Immigration Act of 1990 authorized the denial of visas to persons who had engaged in terrorist activities, this bill would deny visas to all representatives or spokespersons for groups labeled terrorist, even if the representative or spokesperson had never engaged in any illegal activity. This test would have allowed the exclusion of representatives of the African National Congress or the IRA or many other political groups, even if they were seeking to enter the U.S. to talk about prospects for peace. Continued Exclusion of PLO Representatives. Even after Yassar Arafat has been received at the White House, where he signed a peace accord with Israel, he and every other alien who is a representative of the PLO is "considered, for purposes of this Act, to be engaged in a terrorism activity." Son of Star Chamber. Section 202(d) of the bill seems to authorize a mini-Star Chamber proceeding, allowing the use of classified information in any deportation case, even those where the complex provisions of the alien terrorist removal section are not invoked. 2. Terrorist Fund-Raising Is Whatever the President Decides It Is and Nobody Can Question His Decision Title III of the bill creates a new federal crime of "terrorist fund-raising." The provision would allow the President to define the crime by designating certain groups as terrorist organizations. The President can also designate individual persons who are raising funds for, or acting for or on behalf of, any organization he designates. From then on, it is a crime for "any person subject to the jurisdiction of the United States anywhere, to directly or indirectly, raise, receive or collect on behalf of, or furnish, give, transmit, transfer or provide funds to or for an organization or person" so designated, unless a license has been granted by the Secretary of the Treasury. In an attempt to avoid judicial review of designations that are either arbitrary or politically motivated, the legislation states that the President’s designation of a group or individual would be final. "Any finding made in any designation pursuant to [this section] shall be conclusive. No question concerning the validity of the issuance of such designation may be raised by the defendant in a criminal prosecution as a defense or as an objection to any trial or hearing." Introducing a further opportunity for biased or inconsistent decisions, the legislation allows the President to take an organization or person off the list whenever he decides that "the national security, foreign relations, or economic interests of the United States so warrant," even though the

… read more »

Response:

Thanks for your diligence on this, Steve. Andy

Justice Dept. Drafts Sweeping Expansion of Anti-Terrorism Act The Center for Public Integrity Publishes Secret Draft of ‘Patriot II’ Legislation By Charles Lewis and Adam Mayle

www.public-i.org/dtaweb/report.asp?ReportID=502&L1=10&L2=10&L3=0&L4=0… (WASHINGTON, Feb. 7, 2003) — The Bush Administration is preparing a bold, comprehensive sequel to the USA Patriot Act passed in the wake of September 11, 2001, which will give the government broad, sweeping new powers to increase domestic intelligence-gathering, surveillance and law enforcement prerogatives, and simultaneously decrease judicial review and public access to information. The Center for Public Integrity has obtained a draft, dated January 9, 2003, of this previously undisclosed legislation and is making it available in full text at:

http://www.publicintegrity.org/dtaweb/downloads/Story_01_020703_Doc_1… (12 MB). OK Guys, Let’s start at the beginning of the document.(yes, I downloaded the 12 meg peice) We’ll just compare what Bruce’s commentary says these articles say vs.

what they actually say. I’ll stop when I get tired of it and some one else can pick it up if they wish. Shall we?

…..

Response:

Thanks for your diligence on this, Steve. Andy

You are welcome, I would have gone through more, but the point appeared to be made. It’s amazing what some folks will accept as fact isn’t it? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Justice Dept. Drafts Sweeping Expansion of Anti-Terrorism Act The Center for Public Integrity Publishes Secret Draft of ‘Patriot II’ Legislation By Charles Lewis and Adam Mayle www.public-i.org/dtaweb/report.asp?ReportID=502&L1=10&L2=10&L3=0&L4=0… (WASHINGTON, Feb. 7, 2003) — The Bush Administration is preparing a bold, comprehensive sequel to the USA Patriot Act passed in the wake of September 11, 2001, which will give the government broad, sweeping new powers to increase domestic intelligence-gathering, surveillance and law enforcement prerogatives, and simultaneously decrease judicial review and public access to information. The Center for Public Integrity has obtained a draft, dated January 9, 2003, of this previously undisclosed legislation and is making it available in full text at: http://www.publicintegrity.org/dtaweb/downloads/Story_01_020703_Doc_1… (12 MB). OK Guys, Let’s start at the beginning of the document.(yes, I downloaded the 12 meg peice) We’ll just compare what Bruce’s commentary says these articles say vs. what they actually say. I’ll stop when I get tired of it and some one else can pick it up if they wish. Shall we? …..

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Justice Dept. Drafts Sweeping Expansion of Anti-Terrorism Act The Center for Public Integrity Publishes Secret Draft of ‘Patriot II’ Legislation By Charles Lewis and Adam Mayle www.public-i.org/dtaweb/report.asp?ReportID=502&L1=10&L2=10&L3=0&L4=0… (WASHINGTON, Feb. 7, 2003) — The Bush Administration is preparing a bold, comprehensive sequel to the USA Patriot Act passed in the wake of September 11, 2001, which will give the government broad, sweeping new powers to increase domestic intelligence-gathering, surveillance and law enforcement prerogatives, and simultaneously decrease judicial review and public access to information. The Center for Public Integrity has obtained a draft, dated January 9, 2003, of this previously undisclosed legislation and is making it available in full text at: http://www.publicintegrity.org/dtaweb/downloads/Story_01_020703_Doc_1… (12 MB). OK Guys, Let’s start at the beginning of the document.(yes, I downloaded the 12 meg peice) We’ll just compare what Bruce’s commentary says these articles say vs. what they actually say. I’ll stop when I get tired of it and some one else can pick it up if they wish. Shall we? SECTION 101 will designate individual terrorists as foreign powers and again strip them of all rights under the "enemy combatant" designation. They forgot to include the phrase "who engage in international terrorism" THAT is what this section actually says. SECTION 102 states clearly that any information gathering, regardless of whether or not those activities are illegal, can be considered to be clandestine intelligence activities for a foreign power. This makes news gathering illegal. Wrong again! What it says is that "any person who engages in clandestine intelligence gathering for a foriegn power would qualify as "an agent of a foriegn power" regardless of whether those activities are Federal crimes" .I guess it makes news gathering illegal if you are doing it secretly for a foreign government. SECTION 103 allows the Federal government to use wartime martial law powers domestically and internationally without Congress declaring that a state of war exists. Bullshit! This article says that as war has not been declared in over 60yrs, that the provision that allows wiretaps etc. for the15 DAYS following the Congress declaring war should be ammended to allow wiretaps  etc. for 15 days after Congress authorises use of force or after an attack on the US that causes a national emergency. Beginning to look a lot like you’re up to a little propaganda, Bruce. But let’s continue. SECTION 106 is bone-chilling in its straightforwardness. It states that broad general warrants by the secret FSIA court (a panel of secret judges set up in a star chamber system that convenes in an undisclosed location) granted under the first Patriot Act are not good enough. It states that government agents must be given immunity for carrying out searches with no prior court approval. This section throws out the entire Fourth Amendment against unreasonable searches and seizures. It says nothing like that at all. Star chambers?Secret locations? This section merely says that the "the good faith" defense  would be available option to Fed agents who "unauthorized" while investigating under a Special order as well as under a court order. This "good faith defense" is the same protection that local and state agents have had for a long time, that protects, say a cop, or a fireman, for getting sued or charged for overhearing a conversation then acting on it if "in good faith" they believed that delay would have let the crime proceed and resulted in injury. Translation: An FBI agent who hears someone on a payphone say that he has a bomb in his backpack, can use that phone conversation as a reason to detain that person without being charged with failing to get a court order. This "good faith defense" is already available for Federal agents who are operating under court orders, this article expands that defense availability for those agents working on investigations that are not under court orders. Again, pretty much the same thing that non-federal agents have had for a while. Reads like common sense to me. Whoops!!!!! they forgot to include SECTION 108!!!! Oh, nothing important there, just a provision for defence attourneys with security clearances to be appointed for all appeals to the FISA court, so that the court is subject to the adversarial process. Nothing your propagandists can use there. SECTION 109 allows secret star chamber courts to issue contempt charges against any individual or corporation who refuses to incriminate themselves or others. This sections annihilate the last vestiges of the Fifth Amendment. Good stretch!!!!! LOL! this really says that the Foreign Intelligence Surviellance Act (FISA) courts have the same options in regards to contempt of court charges as ANY OTHER Federal court. Bruce did you even read the draft you posted a link to? So far I see no resemblence to what the screed you posted claims. Shame on you. SHEESH!!! I’m bored with this, but I hope that any one who is tempted to take this ridiculous propaganda hack job as the truth, got enough of an idea to go to the document that is PURPORTED to be the document that the article refers to. Check it out yourself, Make up your own mind, there are too many liars on the loose for us to be lazy and take thier word.

Bonus points for persistance. Tiresome business. Good job. CLICK HERE, READ IT YOURSELF full text (12MB) at: http://www.publicintegrity.org/dtaweb/downloads/Story_01_020703_Doc_1…

That’s what it’s about. Hand them facts. Ron Delenda est Carthago

Response:

I always knew you were all right, Steve.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – SHEESH!!! I’m bored with this, but I hope that any one who is tempted to take this ridiculous propaganda hack job as the truth, got enough of an idea to go to the document that is PURPORTED to be the document that the article refers to. Check it out yourself, Make up your own mind, there are too many liars on the loose for us to be lazy and take thier word. Bonus points for persistance. Tiresome business. Good job. CLICK HERE, READ IT YOURSELF full text (12MB) at: http://www.publicintegrity.org/dtaweb/downloads/Story_01_020703_Doc_1… That’s what it’s about. Hand them facts. Ron Delenda est Carthago

Yes, Tiresome is a good word for it. Thanks for the good words.  The truth will out.

Response:

I always knew you were all right, Steve.

Thanks, Jeff.

Response:

Thanks for doing the legwork. Notice the lack of any response at all from the left. The bluff has been called, and they can’t face it up to it. It’s amazing how they want to tie the hands of those trying to protect us. They must have a hell of a guilty conscience to worry more about Uncle Sam than another terrorist attack.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks for your diligence on this, Steve. Andy You are welcome, I would have gone through more, but the point appeared to be made. It’s amazing what some folks will accept as fact isn’t it? Justice Dept. Drafts Sweeping Expansion of Anti-Terrorism Act The Center for Public Integrity Publishes Secret Draft of ‘Patriot II’ Legislation By Charles Lewis and Adam Mayle

www.public-i.org/dtaweb/report.asp?ReportID=502&L1=10&L2=10&L3=0&L4=0… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (WASHINGTON, Feb. 7, 2003) — The Bush Administration is preparing a bold, comprehensive sequel to the USA Patriot Act passed in the wake of September 11, 2001, which will give the government broad, sweeping new powers to increase domestic intelligence-gathering, surveillance and law enforcement prerogatives, and simultaneously decrease judicial review and public access to information. The Center for Public Integrity has obtained a draft, dated January 9, 2003, of this previously undisclosed legislation and is making it available in full text at:

http://www.publicintegrity.org/dtaweb/downloads/Story_01_020703_Doc_1… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (12 MB). OK Guys, Let’s start at the beginning of the document.(yes, I downloaded the 12 meg peice) We’ll just compare what Bruce’s commentary says these articles say vs. what they actually say. I’ll stop when I get tired of it and some one else can pick it up if they wish. Shall we? …..

Response:

Thanks for doing the legwork.

My pleasure:-) Notice the lack of any response at all from the left. The bluff has been called, and they can’t face it up to it.

I think that we are supposed to take that as a signal that my post is not worth replying to. seeing how I’m OBVIOUSLY just a brainwashed right wing dupe. LOL! It’s amazing how they want to tie the hands of those trying to protect us. They must have a hell of a guilty conscience to worry more about Uncle Sam than another terrorist attack.

It’s even more amazing that after holding forth about how Uncle is so corrupt and can not be trusted, these same folks will back just about any proposal to limit freedom and give the Fed more power over us,  from gun control to land use issues. Guilty conscience? Maybe. But at very least an identity crisis and a conflicted sense of self worth. But just in case, I’d tell them to relax a little, I don’t think Ashecroft is much interested in the joint you smoked at band practice last night. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks for your diligence on this, Steve. Andy You are welcome, I would have gone through more, but the point appeared to be made. It’s amazing what some folks will accept as fact isn’t it? Justice Dept. Drafts Sweeping Expansion of Anti-Terrorism Act The Center for Public Integrity Publishes Secret Draft of ‘Patriot II’ Legislation By Charles Lewis and Adam Mayle www.public-i.org/dtaweb/report.asp?ReportID=502&L1=10&L2=10&L3=0&L4=0… (WASHINGTON, Feb. 7, 2003) — The Bush Administration is preparing a bold, comprehensive sequel to the USA Patriot Act passed in the wake of September 11, 2001, which will give the government broad, sweeping new powers to increase domestic intelligence-gathering, surveillance and law enforcement prerogatives, and simultaneously decrease judicial review and public access to information. The Center for Public Integrity has obtained a draft, dated January 9, 2003, of this previously undisclosed legislation and is making it available in full text at: http://www.publicintegrity.org/dtaweb/downloads/Story_01_020703_Doc_1… (12 MB). OK Guys, Let’s start at the beginning of the document.(yes, I downloaded the 12 meg peice) We’ll just compare what Bruce’s commentary says these articles say vs. what they actually say. I’ll stop when I get tired of it and some one else can pick it up if they wish. Shall we? …..

Response:

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