Act Acting » Acting Coach » Tri position on bike
Tri position on bike
Question:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I will re-tell our heritage: triathletes first popularized clipless pedals, hard shell helmets, disc wheels, SIS shifting, carbon round tube frames, carbon monocoque frames, titanium frames, aero bars, 26" wheels, steeper seat angles, and deep dish rims. Roadies thought all the above were bad ideas. They ridiculed triathletes for using them. Now every single one of these innovations have made there way deep into the cycling world, with the exception of 26" wheels, where they first hit the Tour de France with more than a whimper this year. With the exception of STI shifting, virtually every meaningful technology over the last twelve years which has made its way into road cycling has come through the door of triathlon. Triathletes invent, pioneer, and perfect this technology, and as it pertains to time trialing, they also use it WAY more than roadies do, i.e., most of you have ridden more miles on aero bars than Miguel Indurain and his whole Banesto team put together. QRman
One can only put up with this crap for so long. qr man wake up! clipless pedals-Cinelli’s were very popular in track racing through the late 1970’s. Look’s have been popular since release approx 1980 disk wheels-patented before 1900. probably not a tri person. aero bars-designed by a ski coach/ masters cyclist. I own a hand made prototype (from Lennon) and raced with it a year before they were comercially available (to tri persons) 26" wheels-moter pacing on the track has used small front wheels since at least the 1950’s steep seat angles-very forward seat positions are standard amongst pro motor pacers since the 1950’s I think that leaves only baggy t-shirts and crashing in T.T.’s as the inovations of your passtime OH…. I forgot….triathletes invented drafting in 1994.
Response:
writes: <<So can we drop this my sport has a bigger penis than your sport mentality?! I think you’re missing the point. I am simply recalling that triathletes are primarily responsible for the initial popularization of most of the recent innovations in road cycling, despite the (vain) hope by most of these various inventors that roadies would immediately embrace them. You at least have accepted that my argument has some merit. I disagree with your thesis that roadies really wanted to have all this cool stuff, just couldn’t afford it. I think the demographics between the sports are not all that dissimilar. When I was a young roadie at the time I, like you, had financial hardship. I bought my racing and training sew-ups flatted and patched them myself. But that didn’t have to do with being a roadie, but with being young (and in any case it didn’t keep me from copping the patented roadie "attitude"). I started doing triathlons in 1979 and by the mid-eighties it was obvious that the atmosphere was much more free to experimentation than was road cycling. The mountain biking establishment has this same freedom in their thinking, and without the attitude. Any triathlete who has been around for eight or ten years knows exactly what I’m talking about. And having come from both sides, I feel perfectly justified saying that triathletes are not the ones with the attitude. It was precisely this lack of attitude that has allowed triathletes to be able to credit themselves with popularizing so much new technology. QRman QRman
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <<So can we drop this my sport has a bigger penis than your sport mentality?! I think you’re missing the point. I am simply recalling that triathletes are primarily responsible for the initial popularization of most of the recent innovations in road cycling, despite the (vain) hope by most of these various inventors that roadies would immediately embrace them. [snip] Any triathlete who has been around for eight or ten years knows exactly what I’m talking about. And having come from both sides, I feel perfectly justified saying that triathletes are not the ones with the attitude. It was precisely this lack of attitude that has allowed triathletes to be able to credit themselves with popularizing so much new technology.
[facetious humor mode on] I’m feeling pretty schizophrenic lately (go ahead flame me, mental health problems aren’t funny, yes they are, no they’re not …) I’m like QRman in one aspect, former biker … but also current road biker mtn biker swimmer runner. And I have been accused of having a bad attitude, no balls etc, so maybe I’m not a triathlete, maybe I ate too many donuts. I agree with QRman, over the years the tri-group seems much more open to trying stuff (but I draw the line at x-dressing a la Kenny Souza and wearing what my girlfriend says looks just like a woman’s top/bottom swim suit). The pure roadies (non-runners) gave me no end of grief when I rode with them and my scott DH bars, the tri-geeks all thought they were "cool". Sorry to jump threads mid-post … but I like the QRman nickname. How about a contest for the coolest nickname. Only rules I can think of are no using ‘the grip’, ‘terminator’ or others already used, and no recycling names from super-star wrestling. tony
Response:
: (Lee Cameron) writes:
: : <<disk wheels-patented before 1900. probably not a tri person. : Well said, but my contention is not that triathletes made all this stuff. : Kestrels were neither made by, nor for, triathletes. Nor were Vitus : Carbon frames. But if you get a chance, ask someone who has been at the : helm of Vitus, or Giro, or Kestrel, or Hed, or Zipp, or Aerosports (the : hot disk back in the mid ’80’s) what sport kept them alive? They’ll : certainly tell you it wasn’t competetive cycling. When speaking of disk wheels you need to remember that they are expensive and as a rule bike racers are poor. Triathletes, on the other hand tend to be much better off financially. I imagine that most every bike racer would have a disk wheel and/or a set of tri spokes if they could afford it. I remember going to USCF nationals in 1985 and watching the Ten Speed drive team kick everybody’s butt with their disk wheels and funny bikes. I knew then that I wanted that stuff, but I could only afford to have it when I got on a team that supplied it two years later. Helmets: Triathletes started using them when they were required, so did bike racers. : <<aero bars-designed by a ski coach/ masters cyclist. I own a hand made : prototype (from Lennon) and raced with it a year before they were : comercially available (to tri persons) : Same answer. If Scott bars were so well received roadies, why were none : of them used until 1989? Incidentally, triathletes had them in late ‘86 : (Brad Kearns and Andrew MacNaughton). You had yours in ‘85? I remember talking to triathletes about aero bars in the early days. I was riding a "funny bike" (26" front wheel, sloping top tube, cow horn bars) at the time and had a very flat aero position. All the triatletes had DH bars on regular road frames with MTB stems. They were sitting WAY UP on their bikes. As far as having a flat back went they were less aero than they would have been with regular drops. When I asked them about this, they said the main reason for the bars was comfort for long TT’s and that allowed them to transition to running better. Nobody every talked about aerodynamics at that time. What they said seemed reasonable enough to me, but certainly wasn’t something that would help me in a 40km ITT. Clipless pedals: I got my first set of Looks for Christmas in 1985 and I wasn’t the only guy on that first post Xmas training ride with new pedals. Track riders have always been a lot more conservative about pedals, but then they put far more stress on their pedals than triathletes or even normal roadies. They also ride short enough events where comfort isn’t a factor. Composite and Ti frames: I think we come back to cost again here. I bought a Al Vitus in 1985 for about $450. I wanted the carbon one, but it was $900. Sorry, too much money for my budget. If you look at the bikes in Master’s bike racing you will find a lot of composite frames and Ti frames, because they can afford them. In fact while I’m on the subject of poor bike racers, talk to Chuckie V. next time you see him at a tri. We used to race on the same team for a while in 1986. He was about as poor as they came. He was known to show up for a weekend of races with a can of soup and $.19 in his pocket. He could barely afford tires, let alone the latest trick stuff. He did finish top 20 in the ‘85 national TT though on a VERY stock bike against some fairly trick (for the time) equipment. : I suspect the real source of cycling angst is the regular ass-kicking they : get on the road from triathletes who have to split their training time : between three events. Oh, puhleaze! Talk about the daily flame bait. Good triathletes, kick mediocre bike racer butt, good roadies, kick mediocre triathlete butt. Who gives a shit. If it matters, I’m a roadie who’s been racing 10 years. I started with a few triathlons, but couldn’t swim worth a damn so I stuck with the bike. My wife (Kitty Glass was her maiden name) was a triathlete who won a number of ironman length tri’s in the early 80’s. She has told me that the Vuelta de Bisbee (a four day stage race in Airzona) was far harder than any ironman tri she ever did. That is because tri’s are different than bike races. I’m sure that I would find ironman far harder than any bike race I ever did. That doesn’t mean that one athlete or sport is harder than the other, just different. So can we drop this my sport has a bigger penis than your sport mentality?! Kevin Metcalfe Davis, CA
Response:
:<<I think that leaves only baggy t-shirts and crashing in T.T.’s as the :inovations of your passtime. OH…. I forgot….triathletes invented :drafting in 1994. Drafting?!? The pace-lines looked pretty loose compared to cycling standards. I wonder why the pros didn’t outfit there aerobars with an extra brake lever? : You forget using their top-tubes as feed bags 
:I suspect the real source of cycling angst is the regular ass-kicking they :get on the road from triathletes who have to split their training time :between three events. : I know it drives them nuts from Florida to New Mexico. Pat W.Patrick Brug, Ph.D. _- -_ Los Alamos National Lab -__ __- / cis: 72410,3372 /
Response:
Regarding conventional v. extreme seat positions for triathletes: I found most people tend to time trial more effectively with a steeper seat angle (76-80 degrees), including "pure" cyclists and triathletes. Many pro cyclists tend to use a more conventional angle (72-74) when they time trial because they spend so many hours and miles on a road bike in that position, and they have trained their muscles to be most effective in that position.
I think this is where the confusion arise between steep and normal seat angle. If I understood QRman’s explanation correctly, the steep angle is to simply rotate the rider so that the back is flat thus improving the aerodynamics, and not to try and incoporate different muscle groups. I’ve seen a lot of "pros" riding on the tip of the saddle when using aero bars on a conventional bike. Naru Takashima — .. __o __o __o __o __o __o __o __o .. .. -<, -<, -<, -<, -<, -<, -<, -<, .. ..(_)/(_)(_)/(_)(_)/(_)(_)/(_)(_)/(_)(_)/(_)(_)/(_)(_)/(_)..
Response:
(-Jensen,T.R.) writes:
<<I talked to Bob Hanisch (a coach for the pro and junior US Team at the Olympic Training Center) last week, and he said most of the pros are going back to shallower angles as they found they can run faster after a hard ride. For his sake, I hope you misquoted him. That is so absolutely untrue, and out of touch with reality, that it causes me to wonder how Tri-Fed is spending your money. After learning that Tri Fed hired Roger Young to coach the US Pro triathlon team for the Worlds, I wonder whether there is some movement toward hiring underemployed retrogrouch cyclists from the ’70’s to coach our triathletes. Does our NGB believe coaches from the world of cycling represent a "higher authority". I will re-tell our heritage: triathletes first popularized clipless pedals, hard shell helmets, disc wheels, SIS shifting, carbon round tube frames, carbon monocoque frames, titanium frames, aero bars, 26" wheels, steeper seat angles, and deep dish rims. Roadies thought all the above were bad ideas. They ridiculed triathletes for using them. Now every single one of these innovations have made there way deep into the cycling world, with the exception of 26" wheels, where they first hit the Tour de France with more than a whimper this year. With the exception of STI shifting, virtually every meaningful technology over the last twelve years which has made its way into road cycling has come through the door of triathlon. Triathletes invent, pioneer, and perfect this technology, and as it pertains to time trialing, they also use it WAY more than roadies do, i.e., most of you have ridden more miles on aero bars than Miguel Indurain and his whole Banesto team put together. I hope our sport doesn’t start listening to retro coaching systems that even the pro elite of cycling don’t listen to anymore. QRman QRman
Response:
Regarding conventional v. extreme seat positions for triathletes: I found most people tend to time trial more effectively with a steeper seat angle (76-80 degrees), including "pure" cyclists and triathletes. Many pro cyclists tend to use a more conventional angle (72-74) when they time trial because they spend so many hours and miles on a road bike in that position, and they have trained their muscles to be most effective in that position. I know when I first started tris after just cycling, I found my butt sliding off the back of the saddle during hard TT efforts. Now, after gradually adapting to a steeper seat angle, I found my TT speed has increased. Of course, then there are those triathletes that take the steep seat angle to an extreme (in my opinion). I saw a guy who had one of the new Cannondale TT bikes – he had one of those angled seat posts for a bike that already has a steep seat angle. His effective seat angle must be something like 90-100 degrees. The back of his saddle was in line with his bottom bracket and most of his weight was over the front hub (not very safe). I would call this extreme. I talked to Bob Hanisch (a coach for the pro and junior US Team at the Olympic Training Center) last week, and he said most of the pros are going back to shallower angles as they found they can run faster after a hard ride. Todd Jensen o AT&T Bell Labs ___^o_ __o <| Naperville, IL _ <_ _
Response:
(Lee Cameron) writes:
I think that leaves only baggy t-shirts and crashing in T.T.’s as the inovations of your passtime OH…. I forgot….triathletes invented drafting in 1994.<<< My, my, my…. I have to side with QRman on this. Back in 1987, the roadies thought triathletes and Scott DH bars, clipless pedals and the like were a joke. Now look who’s laughing. Triathletes are the innovators and lead the way in TT tech, we are the doorman to the new hyper-speed frontier for the roadies. If it weren’t for us the roadies would still be wearing wool shorts with cracked leather chamois and wooden-soled laced shoes, riding 25-pound Gitanes and burning incense at the foot of George Mount’s picture.
Response:
(-Jensen,T.R.) writes:
<<When I said shallower, I meant getting away from the ultra extreme anglessome people were experimenting with. If you’re talking about those few, esp. duathletes, who were riding close to 90 degrees seat angle, then I agree. But very few athletes took that seriously. <<<I wonder whether there is some movement toward hiring underemployed retrogrouch cyclists from the ’70’s to coach our triathletes…. <<It is probably because many of our elite athletes will now need to know the proper way to draft, paceline, and develop breakaway strategies just like in a cycling race. Here are the issues, as I see it: 1. The USOC has given money to Tri-Fed, in the hope that something useful will come of it as regards making our pros more successful. Tri-Fed has chosen to use it to teach our pros how to draft better, as opposed to how to train more efficiently in general. So be it. That said: 2. If the idea is how to draft better WITH AERO BARS, racing AS INDIVIDUALS then I submit this is out of Roger Young’s range of knowledge. Someone who has experience as both a bike racer, triathlete, and coach might be more beneficial, e.g., John Howard. That said: 3. If the idea is to form a team with strategy pointed toward a win FOR THE TEAM, at the expense of certain individuals, then I’ll buy it. I’ll use the British team for example. I could envision a top notch swimmer/biker like Robin Brew acting as Simon Lessing’s "lieutenant". After having queried certain parties about this, however, I find no evidence that the US team has any intention of doing this. So I don’t see the significance of recruiting a coach who can teach team tactics if the team has no intention of acting like a team, and if the team will not be chosen with team tactics in mind. <<<I will re-tell our heritage: triathletes first popularized clipless pedals, hard shell helmets, disc wheels, SIS shifting, carbon round tube frames, carbon monocoque frames, titanium frames, aero bars, 26" wheels, steeper seat angles, and deep dish rims. <<I think triathletes sometimes like to feel responsible for a lot of the advances in cycling technology, but I think many of the things you listed could also have been popularized by "pure" roadies. For example, after the USCF made ANSI-approved helmets mandatory, a whole new industry was developed. I think Boone Lennon originally used his Scott DH bars in criterium races. Disc wheels became very popular after the ‘80 Olympics. I seem to remember Greg Lemond and BBrnard Hinault as the leaders of the LOOK pedal revolution. You’re right, roadies "could" have popularized them, but they didn’t. Sure, inventors wished that roadies would except these ideas, but they didn’t. Big money was paid to Lemond and Hinault by LOOK, and big money was paid by Shimano, Vitus, and so forth. But it is still my contention that triathletes made all this stuff popular, because they saw the true value in it when roadies didn’t. And this is my point. Whether we, or someone else, invents technology, we are much more apt to see the value in it, and much less apt to be constrained by tradition. <<I think if you follow some of the research the USCF and cycling teams are putting into studying aerodynamics, you may find some of their ideas are on the cutting edge. Look at Rebecca Twigg’s TT position some day, which was honed in a wind tunnel, and you will find they are as scientific or more than many triathletes. I remember Rebecca Twiggs position last year, with her armrests under her wrists. Sure roadies are finally doing their homework…. and finding out what triathletes knew three years ago. <<Just adding some fuel to the fire… Todd Jensen Just fanning it…. Dan Empfield
Response:
(Lee Cameron) writes:
<<One can only put up with this crap for so long. qr man wake up! Clipless pedals-Cinelli’s were very popular in track racing through the late 1970’s. They were not popular. I was a roadie in the late ’70’s, and looked at things then the way roadies do now. I thought they were dumb, because they were not what I and my friends were using. If they were so popular, as you say, why did they die? And don’t say they died because Look came along, they died on their own before Look arrived. <<disk wheels-patented before 1900. probably not a tri person. Well said, but my contention is not that triathletes made all this stuff. Kestrels were neither made by, nor for, triathletes. Nor were Vitus Carbon frames. But if you get a chance, ask someone who has been at the helm of Vitus, or Giro, or Kestrel, or Hed, or Zipp, or Aerosports (the hot disk back in the mid ’80’s) what sport kept them alive? They’ll certainly tell you it wasn’t competetive cycling. <<aero bars-designed by a ski coach/ masters cyclist. I own a hand made prototype (from Lennon) and raced with it a year before they were comercially available (to tri persons) Same answer. If Scott bars were so well received roadies, why were none of them used until 1989? Incidentally, triathletes had them in late ‘86 (Brad Kearns and Andrew MacNaughton). You had yours in ‘85? <<26" wheels-moter pacing on the track has used small front wheels since at least the 1950’s steep seat angles-very forward seat positions are standard amongst pro motor pacers since the 1950’s If you go to the Bicycle Museum in Chicago you’ll see that most of the patents which have been issued for bicycles in the past 20 years probably shouldn’t have been. It was ALL done a long time ago, which proves my point all the more. As you say, cyclists new about all this stuff years ago. So why didn’t they appreciate the marvelous inventions available to them? <<I think that leaves only baggy t-shirts and crashing in T.T.’s as the inovations of your passtime. OH…. I forgot….triathletes invented drafting in 1994. Did your roadie buddies bring you over from "rec. bicycles. racing" for your daily flame? This is what irks me about roadies. A technology is invented for them. They reject it. Triathletes embrace it. Roadies ridicule it. One enterprising roadie (three years later) uses it effectively. Roadies then retroactively decide it was their technology all along. I suspect the real source of cycling angst is the regular ass-kicking they get on the road from triathletes who have to split their training time between three events. QRman
Response:
(-Jensen,T.R.) writes: <<I talked to Bob Hanisch (a coach for the pro and junior US Team at the Olympic Training Center) last week, and he said most of the pros are going back to shallower angles as they found they can run faster after a hard ride. For his sake, I hope you misquoted him. That is so absolutely untrue, and out of touch with reality, that it causes me to wonder how Tri-Fed is spending your money.
When I said shallower, I meant getting away from the ultra extreme angles some people were experimenting with. After learning that Tri Fed hired Roger Young to coach the US Pro triathlon team for the Worlds, I wonder whether there is some movement toward hiring underemployed retrogrouch cyclists from the ’70’s to coach our triathletes. Does our NGB believe coaches from the world of cycling represent a "higher authority".
It is probably because many of our elite athletes will now need to know the proper way to draft, paceline, and develop breakaway strategies just like in a cycling race. After all, the World’s are being run by the ITU, and there is a rumor drafting will be allowed after all the "success" they had with it at World Cup races. I will re-tell our heritage: triathletes first popularized clipless pedals, hard shell helmets, disc wheels, SIS shifting, carbon round tube frames, carbon monocoque frames, titanium frames, aero bars, 26" wheels, steeper seat angles, and deep dish rims. Roadies thought all the above were bad ideas. They ridiculed triathletes for using them. Now every single one of these innovations have made there way deep into the cycling world, with the exception of 26" wheels, where they first hit the Tour de France with more than a whimper this year.
I think triathletes sometimes like to feel responsible for a lot of the advances in cycling technology, but I think many of the things you listed could also have been popularized by "pure" roadies. For example, after the USCF made ANSI-approved helmets mandatory, a whole new industry was developed. I think Boone Lennon originally used his Scott DH bars in criterium races. Disc wheels became very popular after the ‘80 Olympics. I seem to remember Greg Lemond and BBrnard Hinault as the leaders of the LOOK pedal revolution. I hope our sport doesn’t start listening to retro coaching systems that even the pro elite of cycling don’t listen to anymore.
I think if you follow some of the research the USCF and cycling teams are putting into studying aerodynamics, you may find some of their ideas are on the cutting edge. Look at Rebecca Twigg’s TT position some day, which was honed in a wind tunnel, and you will find they are as scientific or more than many triathletes. Just adding some fuel to the fire… Todd Jensen o ILL650 1A-322 ___^o_ __o <| (708) 979-1254 _ <_ _
Response:
…….in a conventional seat angle. QRman, do you have a formula for properly fitting a rider on your bike? Naru Takashima — .. __o __o __o __o __o __o __o __o .. .. -<, -<, -<, -<, -<, -<, -<, -<, .. ..(_)/(_)(_)/(_)(_)/(_)(_)/(_)(_)/(_)(_)/(_)(_)/(_)(_)/(_)..
Hey- NO DRAFTING !!! :-)
Response:
. The truth is, the hip angle between Chris Boardman, riding at 80 degrees with a very flat back, and Claudio Chiappucci riding up Alp D’Huez seated with his hand on the tops, is very similar. If you took photos of the two of them in profile and were to interpose the photos, you’d see one body position.
This is very interesting and makes a lot of sense. Actually every roadie (which is what I am) should know this because that’s what everybody does when you are riding in the drops; you naturally sit at the nose of the saddle. But I have a question: How does one determine the saddle set-back location. It seems that the standard knee over the pedal axle method won’t work,if you are trying to achieve the same hip-angle as in a conventional seat angle. QRman, do you have a formula for properly fitting a rider on your bike? Naru Takashima — .. __o __o __o __o __o __o __o __o .. .. -<, -<, -<, -<, -<, -<, -<, -<, .. ..(_)/(_)(_)/(_)(_)/(_)(_)/(_)(_)/(_)(_)/(_)(_)/(_)(_)/(_)..
Response:
Takashima) writes:
<<How does one determine the saddle set-back location. It seems that the standard knee over the pedal axle method won’t work,if you are trying to achieve the same hip-angle as in a conventional seat angle. You’re right, the knee over pedal axle thing is out the window when positioning yourself for tri bikes. Set-back is NOT something you should determine as a matter of setting yourself up (by "set-back" I’m referring to the distance of the nose of the saddle behind the BB). For my wife it’s about even with the BB and for me it’s 4cm behind, and yet we both ride the same seat angle. Choosing a certain distance the saddle should be behind the BB is like saying all cleats should be 4cm behind the front of the shoe. <<QRman, do you have a formula for properly fitting a rider on your bike? We believe that most riders will want to be at between 76 and 81 degrees of seat angle, with 78 degrees being the average. Assuming this, the most important angles are not angles of the bike, but of the rider. These are easy to remember, as they are all right angles. The hip angle (femur and torso), the angle between the torso and the upper arm, and the angle between the upper arm and forearm, all 90 degrees. After you’ve set yourself up, there is a double-check that we use. It is a formula where we determine the "armrest drop", the distance in elevation between the armrests and the top of the saddle. C = .005D(sq) – .2D – 1.5 +/- 1.5 where D is the distance between the center of the BB axle and the top of the saddle (in the middle of the saddle), and C is the difference in elevation between the armrests and the top of the saddle (distances are in cm). It might look ominous, but here is an example. My distance D is 80cm. That squared is 6400, times .005 is 32. I am subtracting from that number .2D, which is 80 X .2 = 16. 32 – 16 = 16. From that amount I am subtracting 1.5, which is 14.5, and I have a range of 1.5cm either way. So my armrests should be anywhere from 13cm to 16cm lower than my saddle, with 16cm being the most aggressive I should be, and 13cm a fairly comfortable quantity of drop. Scott Tinley and I have almost exactly the same bike set up, and we both have 80cm of distance D. He rides with about 15cm of armrest drop, I with about 14cm. This formula is for fairly aggressively riding athletes, and all the pros will find themselves inside this formula. If you can’t ride on the conservative side of this range with a steep seat angle bike, you probably should opt for a standard angle bike. However, it would be difficult to ride in this range on a standard angle bike without feeling like your knees are hitting your chest. QRman
Response:
(JASON MACDONALD) writes:
<<I’m a CAT.3 road racer and runner who is making the transition to triathlon. I’ve been watching the top triathletes in Atlantic Canada… and have noticed that their cycling postions are not extreme as other triathletes. You use the terms "extreme" and "conventional" for describing seat position. It would be helpful if you could quantify these terms. By conventional I assume you means 72-74 degree seat angle. By "extreme" do you mean 76 degrees, 78, 80, 84, 90? By the way, seat angle is a better way to describe this than setback, as the latter is dependent on the size of one’s bike and the height of the rider. <<It makes sense to me that triathletes should keep a rather conventional position on the bike while using aerobars. The reasoning being that road racing uses the lowerquads more and using an extreme position while time-trialing uses the upperquads more. Is this your opinion, or the result of a study that I haven’t heard of? <<To me that means using my running muscles. I have experimented with cycling in an extreme position, but I find my legs are dead for running when I get off the bike. You could argue that the best track TT riders are using an extreme position (very little seat setback ) but they don’t have to run 5-32k when they finish. Almost all the best triathletes us a seat angle in the neighborhood of 78 degrees, some as steep as 80 or 81, depending on the course. This means Mark Allen, Paula Newby Fraser, Jurgen Zack, Wolfgang Dittrich, so on and so forth. They all run pretty well off the bike. <<Besides look at Indurain, the new hour record holder, all his TT’n is done with a rather conventional setup. There are exceptions to the rule. In triathlon, we have Kenny Glah and Jeff Devlin who do exceptionally well on and off the bike with standard seat angles. But they are in the extreme minority. <<So why are tirathletes assuming extreme positions on their bikes? The small increase in aerodynamics due to this position is outweighed by the power that can be generated with the lowerquads and the saving of the upperquads for running. Obviously most top triathletes would disagree with you. Consider that road racers thought aero bars didn’t work at all for the first three years of their existence. Then they thought steeper seat angles didn’t work, for the first four years of their existence. There are two reasons for this Johnny-come-lately approach to bike technology. First, road racers cannot believe that a triathlete could invent or inhabit a technology for cycling that would be useful for a cyclist. Second, cyclists have only very recently decided to take time trialing seriously. The average woman in the 45-49 age group reading this post still puts more time on aero bars than does Indurain, because that’s ALL she does. He goes fast because of all the miles he puts on his bike when NOT in the aero position, and because of his superior talent. Your argument against the steeper seat angle is actually support for this position. When using aero bars you are riding with a flatter back (if not, why use the bars?). Biomechanically, the important angle in the body is the angle generated in the hip (the angle created by the torso and the femur). If you ride in an aero position but want to retain biomechanical efficiency, you must move forward. The truth is, the hip angle between Chris Boardman, riding at 80 degrees with a very flat back, and Claudio Chiappucci riding up Alp D’Huez seated with his hand on the tops, is very similar. If you took photos of the two of them in profile and were to interpose the photos, you’d see one body position. You’re right to question everything we do, but you should at the same time question what roady-ism does as well. I believe as you investigate this question further you’ll see that there is more to the advanced position than you might now think. QRman
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I’m a CAT.3 road racer and runner who is making the transition to triathlon. I’ve been watching the top triathletes in Atlantic Canada ( including Steve Irvine , not Irvine Steve as was published in Triathlete ) and have noticed that their cycling postions are not extreme as other triathletes. It makes sense to me that triathletes should keep a rather conventional position on the bike while using aerobars. The resoning being that road racing uses the lowerquads more and using an extreme position while time-trialing uses the upperquads more. To me that means using my running muscles. I have experimented with cycling in an extreme position, but I find my legs are dead for running when I get off the bike. You could argue that the best track TT riders are using an extreme position ( very little seat setback ) but they don’t have to run 5-32k when they finish. Besides look at Indurain, the new hour record holder, all his TT’n is done with a rather conventional setup. So why are tirathletes assuming extreme positions on their bikes? The small increase in aerodynamics dur to this position are outweighed buy the power that can be generated with the lowerquads and the saving of the upperquads for running. Acadia University Wolfville, N.S. CANADA
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