Act Acting » Acting Courses » An open apology to Norman Schwartz

An open apology to Norman Schwartz

Question:

Also, we should all remember to breathe if we read something that upsets us

Yup. How right you are. As to Carl and Victoria, I just started re-lurking after quite an absence, and have been just reading these postings, mouth open hanging to floor. Don’t know whether to laugh or cry. Personally, I think that it is true love for them, and they should get married …. I usually find I am better for NOT having responded either in anger or at all.

Right again. The advice I often give. Should follow it myself, huh …… Though I still think a man who refuses to change his undies is a stinky man … anne

Response:

!This is the alt.* group. We !don’t care. ! ! !Well, I care. I joined alt.acting a loong time ago, and was so confused. !Message headers such as "Watch Britney Pee", "Make More Money" or today’s !favorite "High Quality Porn Site With Animals" Hi, Anna. I use filters. And the filter list keeps on growing and growing. If you are able to use an outside newsreader, may I suggest forte agent or gravity? both newsreader have the ability to filter the spam. If you are on a mac, try MT-Newswatcher. No matter which newsgroup I read and I read several, I always have to add filters every time to remove the junk. If you need help configuring, I can help. ! !(I wonder. Is there a difference in quality between bestiality porn sites? If so, !what is the quality dependent upon? Is it the animal? It’s pedigree? Just wondering !…) I don’t like the image you just put inside my head…..eeewooooyuck! ! !I get that this is an "alt" site, meaning you can post phrases as "go fuck !yourself" or "bite me" in response to one’s questioning whether your choice to play !Hamlet as a hermaphrodite with an obsession with Turkish clothing styles was … !the best choice. The strongest one. Hey, it’s free country … ! !But I give a fuck. ! !What are you doing on an acting based bulletin board, when all you can do is to be !a total reactionary child, throwing temper tantrums everytime someone expresses and !opinion that differs from yours? Well, I could ask you the same question. Have you lurked on this board? and if so, are  you aware that it wasn’t carl OR  victoria that fired the first shot in their ongoing dispute. it was a poster calling him/herself ‘ny_voice’ that started this just PRIOR to the end of the strike. and Unfortunately, I have yet to see Victoria add anything useful to a thread. She made ONE attempt atmy behest, and just can’t seem to stay away from trolling Carl. I have never understood this behavior. when any of us wre not being trolled, it is easy to be of assistance. but when someone is consistantly biting you ont he ass – andI have been through this myself, it gets difficult to stay focused. Through the course of the Strike, we have been trolled by folks who would liek to see SAG go away, sockpuppets and the like INCLUDING the trolls from SAG itself. I am not defending anyone’s behavior – I just ask you to not widen the number of ‘angry hote-on threads’ and I point you to how victoria added her two cents in MN’s htread requesting information on Acting programs in the US. Now, victoria,having been in L.A. is possibly the most qualified to address which programs she should investigate in the area. did she? No. she attacked Carl. so, who is keeping it going, Anna? ! !Is this alt.acting? OR is this alt.actingout? a bit of both, Annabel. Unfortunately. and if it is so troubling to you, then ignore the posts from alt.actingout. it  really is rather easy, particularly if you remember that this is simply ASCII character on your screen… Also, we should all remember to breathe if we read something that upsets us. We read into it as we wish. so we really don’t know what was going through the poster  head when it was written.  I see a lot of stuff that upsets me – and I do my best not to respond immediatly. I usually find I am better for NOT having responded either in anger or at all. KellyL

Response:

This is the alt.* group. We don’t care.

Well, I care. I joined alt.acting a loong time ago, and was so confused. Message headers such as "Watch Britney Pee", "Make More Money" or today’s favorite "High Quality Porn Site With Animals" (I wonder. Is there a difference in quality between bestiality porn sites? If so, what is the quality dependent upon? Is it the animal? It’s pedigree? Just wondering …) I get that this is an "alt" site, meaning you can post phrases as "go fuck yourself" or "bite me" in response to one’s questioning whether your choice to play Hamlet as a hermaphrodite with an obsession with Turkish clothing styles was … the best choice. The strongest one. Hey, it’s free country … But I give a fuck. What are you doing on an acting based bulletin board, when all you can do is to be a total reactionary child, throwing temper tantrums everytime someone expresses and opinion that differs from yours? Is this alt.acting? OR is this alt.actingout? You want to be an actor? Grow the fuck up. Behave this way, and you’ll never get out of Blaine MO. I promise to change my sig lines as often as I change my underwear. –

How rebellious of you. You stinky man. anne

Response:

We chase away people like you, Hector, who have no purpose, ambition or ability other than to raise a stink.  The list is for people who truly have something to share, or truly want to learn. You fit in neither of these categories. Joe Joe, Thank you. You are absolutely right in this.

With all due respect Norman, this vigilance you and Joe describe has resulted in many innocent casualties along the way. It was this same well-intentioned vigilanteism that got Joe and a few others deleted from another discussion list as well, and is currently making alt.acting an unpleasant place to be. In the two and half years ACTING-PRO has been in existence as a private list the moderators have deleted about five or six people from a subscription of list of over 650 subscribers worldwide, never for expressing an opinion about which others may disagree, but ALWAYS for insulting other members, particularly through racial slurs.

I still have yet to recall when I insulted someone on ACT-PRO before I was placed on review. I have however seen *you* as list moderator not only freely engage, but also encourage the type of insulting and ridiculing of another list member who regrettably had such poorly developed social skills, it eventually led to an extremely unfortunate and frustrating outburst against another’s Irish ancestry. Those who choose to see that as censorship, and feel restricted by having someone monitor their posts can and do find many other outlets on the Net for self-expression.

I think that was the point he was making when he said you were responsible for chasing people away. IMO, the best argument for having a moderator or editor in charge is to observe what can happen to a Usenet list, such as this, when a group of people with only a peripheral interest in the topic under discussion monopolize the list. The result is that the serious people who "truly have something to share, or truly want to learn" leave.

That sounds to me like the very argument raised by JCB in ACT-PRO regarding the discussions about Affective Memory exercises. I think she wanted to know if she was going to be beat up because she didn’t share someone’s position. She also I believe urged you and others not to respond like that so those who were interested in the thread could in fact engage in the free flow of ideas rather than be banned to "billybobland". Did she not? Norman, we might not always like, trust, or even approve of the messenger, …however, I prefer to always evaluate the message and apply to it whatever weight I deem it to be worth. Drama Queen

Response:

"The Starmaker" I heard time and time again that *you* chase away all the good people who once participated regularly on *your* ACTING-PRO discussion list forum. You’re still the nutty professore.

We chase away people like you, Hector, who have no purpose, ambition or ability other than to raise a stink.  The list is for people who truly have something to share, or truly want to learn. You fit in neither of these categories. Joe

Response:

We chase away people like you, Hector, who have no purpose, ambition or ability other than to raise a stink.  The list is for people who truly have something to share, or truly want to learn. You fit in neither of these categories. Joe

Joe, Thank you. You are absolutely right in this. In the two and half years ACTING-PRO has been in existence as a private list the moderators have deleted about five or six people from a subscription of list of over 650 subscribers worldwide, never for expressing an opinion about which others may disagree, but ALWAYS for insulting other members, particularly through racial slurs. Those who choose to see that as censorship, and feel restricted by having someone monitor their posts can and do find many other outlets on the Net for self-expression. IMO, the best argument for having a moderator or editor in charge is to observe what can happen to a Usenet list, such as this, when a group of people with only a peripheral interest in the topic under discussion monopolize the list. The result is that the serious people who "truly have something to share, or truly want to learn" leave. NORMAN B. SCHWARTZ Il Professore <

co-owner ACTING-PRO http://www.thegrid.net/virg

Response:

Oh, Christ, Norman….get a life! You want civil discussion, you’re more than welcome to join the rec.arts.* groups. This is the alt.* group. We don’t care. Carl, Just because it’s an alt.* group doesn’t mean we don’t care. It just means we don’t care for censorship or the abusive bias’ of those with the ability to censor input. Doesn’t mean we don’t hate sometimes having to witness some of the worst abusive excesses our unmoderated freedom can allow.

What I meant was, deeq, that we don’t care that people whine about how rough it can be here. Carl <from the Vineyard on 15th — I promise to change my sig lines as often as I change my underwear. – CASalonen

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I like the way she writes "open apologies." It’s soooooo Canadian! It has so much sincerity in it. But the question I have is, will she subscribe to his List forum? The Starmaker I’m betting her answer is "Fuck No!" Don’t be betting any of the money you have earmarked for my Christmas presents! I’ve been a member of ACT-PRO with full posting priviledges going on 2 years now (‘cept for that little period we won’t talk about from last April) Well, let’s not talk about it then. No point scaring away other actors. Let them get hurt on their own. What’s the point of sharing information on alt.acting?

=8^0) <shaking my head in disbelief *YOU ARE ONE SCARY SOB!*  <lol You sure know how to get through the chinks in *my* armour don’t you? Just tell me, since *you* brought it up anyway, what does it feel like to be an actor member of Act-Pro and get kicked out for nothing?

Okay, since you put it that way, I’ll tell you. Hopefully more than a few will benefit from this well-intentioned public recall of my personal experience there. My first few posts made to the list, resulted in back-channeled notes from Norman, telling me not to quote so much text in my response but to only quote the salient points. I don’t think it helped that they came from someone who used the moniker "il professore" and that these notes had a patronizing and condescending feel to them. Maybe there was the possibility that having been raised by a mother who holds advanced degrees in educating the mentally retarded, a woman heralded for her accomplishments and contributions to the field for over 40 years, …and who routinely treats *everyone* like they were retarded 5 year olds, has set into place a natural rebellion to anything that has the same feel to it? In any event I felt that it was difficult to merely quote a sentence or two when arguing in opposition because it demeaned the well-reasoned case built by my oppononents previous sentences, however, I attempted to conform. The next posts, quoted maybe one or two sentences, and my responses were equally brief. I was then sent back-channeled notes accusing me of being "snippy". Damned if you do and damned if you don’t. Co-incidently, I found my positions in that current discussion quite eloquently yet surprisingly dispassionately echoed by Robert Epstein, and therefore felt no further contributions from myself were necessary. <LOL However ironically, towards the end of the thread, Robert kind of lost it himself <g That type of "direction" from a director in a show is difficult enough to deal with, however it *is* part of the job as an actress to do so. Putting up with it in an analytical discussion however is ridiculous IMO. Free communication in an intellectual or analytical discussion comes from the free flow of ideas. Telling someone how to frame their ideas is hardly IMO conducive to the free flow of such ideas or the construction of thought. How an individual arrives at conclusions is a purely subjective thing. Telling someone how to weigh the input for their own calculations, or for that matter what input to weigh, will lead to inevitable and predictable conclusions. It felt almost like "If I wanted your opinion, I’d give it to you". In fairness, I also found myself deleting various threads automatically because initial threads were just too boring or non applicable for me. I just *DIDN’T CARE* about whether or not some revered and long dead acting coach felt the world was flat, nor did I care that some new, obscure and yet to be canonized acting coach thought the world was round. Who gives a shit?! As far as I was concerned, if the earth is round, there’s gravity to keep me from falling off, and I’m not capable enough of walking far enough to reach the end of it in the event it turned out to be flat. I liken acting coaches to toolchests not recipe instructions for a specific dish. As a carpenter constructing, sometimes you need a hammer, sometimes a drill, and at other times you need to back up and pull out the plane to see whether your foundation is level, but you don’t always use every tool at the same time. And as anyone who has ever built anything will tell you, sometimes a little mathematical compass in the handyman’s toolchest can assist you in a pinch. Have none of us ever made a pilot hole with the tip of a pen, rather than the head of a nail? (Am I making sense here?) Acting coaches are not Gods, and their theories far from gospel. I found most of the discussion revolved around theatre and to be more theoretical or scholarly in nature with the attendant aforementioned drawbacks, and included who said or didn’t say what, or who had the priviledge of studying at the knees of someone else, with very little practical ‘how-to’ with regards to acting or the "business aspects" or practical reality of "acting" or navigating through the myriad corridors of today’s contemporary Film and Television industry. The sporadic appearances of Pat Cronin who could always be relied upon for interesting, wise, and practically applicable content, left even less. As such, I hit the delete key *quite often* searching for the occasional needles in the haystack that was ACT-PRO. It was the price I was willing to pay, and content to do so. It took another 5 months before I made another post to the list. One woman wrote a fairly long message in a thread with an intriguing subject line. A subject thread that had spawned as a result of another thread started by someone who I later discovered was himself put on review for posting the thread to begin with. Someone who as a result of this censure, also found himself disenchanted with the list. (A classic example or argument BTW in favour of allowing the free flow of ideas) This woman’s message was not however wordwrapped and I ended up with one huge long seemingly endless sentence line that had to be scrolled through horizontally …with a mouse that seemed to have a mind of it’s own <lol. I posted a brief note to the list complimenting the poster on her message and also asking her if she could consider using word wrap? …and BOOM! I was put on review. It also made me not want to contribute anything to or for the benefit of anyone there. It re-inforced an image or what can more appropriately be described as a caricature of il professore that I had developed in my mind from reading his posts, and made me want to hold him very tightly and beat him solidly about the head & shoulders until he loosened up or adopted and exercised uniform not to mention rational standards of acceptability on the list. It made me want to expose what I considered to be his monumental hypocrisy and stupidity. The longer my messages went unreviewed and unposted to the list through Norman’s stewardship, the angrier I became, especially in light of the fact that correspondence I was sharing with casting director Mark Paladini wasn’t even showing. Mark expressed confusion as to why my statements which had been simultaneously posted & mailed were showing in his private eMail, but not on the list. He also ended up with numerous requests from other list members wanting to know what he was responding to. He deemed our correspondence to be so worthy of inclusion to the list, that he took the time to painstakingly re-type everything I wrote, into his own browser and re-post it along with his responses back to me. How incredibly inconvenient! (especially since we all know how long-winded I can be 8^) This angered me even further since Mark’s inquiries to Norman resulted in Norman pleading ignorance as to why my messages were not showing up on the list. After discussions with the list’s other co-owner John Crowther, and sending him copies of all the correspondence that failed to reach the list, my posting priviledges were re-instated. Granted John *did* have to remind Norman *twice* to re-instate me, but the whole experience was rather unpleasant to say the least. For a creative and expressive individual to not have the ability to express themselves is beyond frustrating. It also stagnates the free flow of ideas IMO. You’re always second guessing yourself, is this going to set off some imagined evil in the moderator’s mind for which I’m going to feel compelled to take him to task? Then you just say "Screw it, why bother? Just take from it what you can and don’t bother trying to give anything back". It’s bad enough keeping yourself in check for the sake of courtesy, but to have that freedom completely taken away from you for no valid reason creates stress, which as a performer, can be harmful to your instrument. It produces an overwhelming desire to vent, or in my case to figuratively kick someone’s ass. The willingness to submit to the will or whimsy of others, or others having the power over what you can or cannot say or do, is not something either I or my ancestors were known for. Quite the contrary. A fierce indomitable, independant streak runs in *my* genes, and both the spirit and the blood of Maroon warriors courses through my veins. That’s how my ancestors ended up in Jamaica to begin with. And before you all start accusing me of both bigotry and hypocrisy, read up on ‘The Maroons’ as well as the patterns and practices of the TransAtlantic Colonial slave traders in the Caribbean to understand what I’m talking about. And BTW Greg, this in no way conflicts with my position in the nature vs. nurture discussion we had some time ago. I just think that sometimes nurture re-inforces nature.  I’m still a little gun shy about contributing there. I don’t like beating people up in eMail or on NG’s (except Starmie of course ;^), but the alternative of doing it in real life is not acceptable, and I don’t want to think about what my reaction would be if it … read more »

Response:

DQ, Thank you for your apology.

You’re more than welcome. I don’t think I would have been able to look myself in the mirror if I hadn’t apologied to you. I only wish that there were a little bit more of the civility you display in your letter from others here at alt-acting.

So do I. A little tongue in cheek and affectionate ribbing & teasing among friends and/or acquaintances is one thing, but vitriolic and incendiary passion without any useful purpose among complete strangers can get rather stale, rather fast. Drama Queen

Response:

Oh, Christ, Norman….get a life! You want civil discussion, you’re more than welcome to join the rec.arts.* groups. This is the alt.* group. We don’t care. Carl

Carl, Just because it’s an alt.* group doesn’t mean we don’t care. It just means we don’t care for censorship or the abusive bias’ of those with the ability to censor input. Doesn’t mean we don’t hate sometimes having to witness some of the worst abusive excesses our unmoderated freedom can allow. Drama Queen

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mi dispiace veramente la mia ipocrisia ed il fatto che avevo maltrattato Lei. Io invito l’opportunita di imparare di nuovo dal professore. Translation:    bada bing bada boom! Correction – Rough Translation: I’m truly sorry for my hypocrisy and the fact that I have mistreated you. I welcome the opportunity to learn anew from the professor. Very rough translation I must say. What you really meant to say is: "I’m truly sorry for my hypocritical self that I’m always am and the fact that  I wanted to kick your fuckin ass. I welcome the opportunity to learn new shit from the sorry ass nutty professor that you are."

Hector, Norman lived in Italy for a few years and as such is fluent in Italian. I’m sure he understood what it was that I said. Drama Queen

Response:

Mi dispiace veramente la mia ipocrisia ed il fatto che avevo maltrattato Lei. Io invito l’opportunita di imparare di nuovo dal professore. Translation:    bada bing bada boom *Bada bang*!

Carl — I promise to change my sig lines as often as I change my underwear. – CASalonen

Response:

Mi dispiace veramente la mia ipocrisia ed il fatto che avevo maltrattato Lei. Io invito l’opportunita di imparare di nuovo dal professore. Translation:    bada bing bada boom!

Correction – Rough Translation: I’m truly sorry for my hypocrisy and the fact that I have mistreated you. I welcome the opportunity to learn anew from the professor.

Response:

I like the way she writes "open apologies." It’s soooooo Canadian! It has so much sincerity in it. But the question I have is, will she subscribe to his List forum? The Starmaker I’m betting her answer is "Fuck No!"

Don’t be betting any of the money you have earmarked for my Christmas presents! I’ve been a member of ACT-PRO with full posting priviledges going on 2 years now (‘cept for that little period we won’t talk about from last April) Drama Queen

Response:

DQ, Thank you for your apology. We welcome your past and present participation on ACTING-PRO. I only wish that there were a little bit more of the civility you display in your letter from others here at alt-acting. Once a place where intelligent people (like Ed Hooks) gathered, alt-acting now seems to be overrun by trolls and discontents intent on chasing away all the good people who once participated on a regular basis .  What a pity ! . NORMAN B. SCHWARTZ Il Professore <

co list-owner ACTING-PRO discussion list http://www.thegrid.net/virg

Response:

Oh, Christ, Norman….get a life! You want civil discussion, you’re more than welcome to join the rec.arts.* groups. This is the alt.* group. We don’t care. Carl – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – DQ, Thank you for your apology. We welcome your past and present participation on ACTING-PRO. I only wish that there were a little bit more of the civility you display in your letter from others here at alt-acting. Once a place where intelligent people (like Ed Hooks) gathered, alt-acting now seems to be overrun by trolls and discontents intent on chasing away all the good people who once participated on a regular basis .  What a pity ! . NORMAN B. SCHWARTZ Il Professore < co list-owner ACTING-PRO discussion list http://www.thegrid.net/virg

– I promise to change my sig lines as often as I change my underwear. – CASalonen

Response:

*posted and eMailed* Dear Norman, I just wanted to take the opportunity to write to you expressing regret for the recent jabs I’ve taken at you. I recently received an eMail from a fellow actress about a completely unrelated issue that prompted me to evaluate alot of the posters in various newsgroups and discussion lists. When you pooped into my mind, I realized I was harbouring feelings of hostility towards you which were only exascerbated by your regretful sounding message to Arlene. I realized I was being unfair to you. Your comments at face value, could suggest a degree of  <ahem "religious bigotry" (I believe that was the regrettable term I used), however, my own outlook was blinded by a simmering hostility as well as other factors that prevented me from thinking rationally. I failed to consider there was probably a well-reasoned and unstated clarification to your words that went unwritten. Believing your message to have been sent to Arlene in private eMail, would certainly have precluded you from including this as well. In addition, I’m sure that for anyone culturally sensitive enough and mindfully aware of world history enough, no further clarification was necessary. I pride myself on my ability to have risen above the ignorance of racial and religious bigotry. An ignorant trap that in todays present society is quite easy to fall into, and I react sharply to racial & religious bigotry for or against any group quite easily. However I also have at times, found myself pondering the very same question to others with the very same phrase you used. Just substitute the word "Jew" for "Black". "Maybe it is because we are Black, that we can see…" That would make me as big a bigot as you. Put into that perspective, I now realize how unfair to you I have been. As a mutual friend (not to mention "a decent human being") recently said in another discussion group "We all have sensitivities based on our background." and "Some groups in our society are not always treated so well by everyone, and so there are sensitivities and histories there." For me to be able to recognize that the experiences of *my* history and/or background both can and have assisted me in identifying situations, but to then deny you the same, …or level what I consider to be one of the worst charges one human can make against another human’s character was not only unfair, but wrong. I apologize. That it was also the result of a message not intended for me to begin with, but that came to my attention through error, makes it doubtly regrettable. Please accept my most sincere apologies. I both welcome and look forward to hearing more about the insights and perspectives that your unique history and background, both professionally & ethnically have afforded you. Mi dispiace veramente la mia ipocrisia ed il fatto che avevo maltrattato Lei. Io invito l’opportunita di imparare di nuovo dal professore. Sincerely, Drama Queen

Response:

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