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Airbus Scare

Question:

#2 As a pilot there are only two things I can think of that would cause me to abort a landing during flare/short final, remembering I forgot the gear, and something blocking the runway.  

Thern you’re not thinking much. Brake failure, landing too deep, loss of vis… Bertie

Response:

#2 As a pilot there are only two things I can think of that would cause me to abort a landing during flare/short final, remembering I forgot the gear, and something blocking the runway. Thern you’re not thinking much. Brake failure, landing too deep, loss of vis…

OMG – you just reminded me of the time John ( cats eyes ) Cunningham – de Hav’s senior test pilot – landed a 125 gear up at LTN. Made a nice job of it apparently – didn’t need too much of a repair IIRC. His ‘excuse’ to the CAA was classically simple – ‘I forgot to lower the gear’ ! Think he got his head slapped and told not to do it again. Pooh.

Response:

[...] If he has a problem encountered during landing what sense does it make to fly back to the point of departure to land and let them off instead of landing at the destination where is he now?

Sorry…I didn’t read the post carefully enough, and thought the event was after departure, not at the destination. The rest of my reply stands, however.

Response:

whatever… aside from pure BS you bothered to type… I actually like the ‘bus better..but that’s just my personal choice..

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We were almost about touchdown when the pilot pulled up violently on the stick.  He then did big figure eights along the Las Vegas strip. All on the Airbus 320 were completely mystified, if not a bit scared. Finally after 15 minutes of maneuvers he announced that a "ground spoiler" was out and that he was going to try to see if things might get fixed.  He took us up to a very high alititude and did more maneuvers.  People were getting afraid now.  The older gentleman next to me stated, "This is not good." As the pilot maneuvered, presumably trying to fix the situation, I noticed that when he turned to the right, the rear of the plane made a periodic, awful ticking sound.  This resonated with my memory of an article about the calamity involving that Airbus headed for the Dominican Republic.  It had mentioned that the tail may have broken off, perhaps due to the carbon fiber construction. The pilot managed to land the plane.  It seemed to me that he activated the flaps earlier than normal so that we had a feathery descent.  The strange thing was that the tail of the plane was fishtailing gently the whole way down.  I had concerns that this might introduce some risk into the touchdown. I did some research today, as I am planning another trip, and am trying to determine whether or not to fly on airbuses anymore.  I found that 5 dozen AA pilots have signed a petition to get their corporation to ground the Airbus portion of the fleet. While I may have thought these people were overreacting before my scary experience, now I think there is something to it.  How do you rate the danger of Airbus aircraft, and is there cause to steer away from this brand of airliner? Thanks, DG

Response:

#2 As a pilot there are only two things I can think of that would cause me to abort a landing during flare/short final, remembering I forgot the gear, and something blocking the runway. Thern you’re not thinking much. Brake failure, landing too deep, loss of vis… Bertie

… finding the Before Landing Checklist between the power levers…now there’s a poser! elysium  Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services     ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **                 http://www.usenet.com

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We were almost about touchdown when the pilot pulled up violently on the stick.  He then did big figure eights along the Las Vegas strip. All on the Airbus 320 were completely mystified, if not a bit scared. Finally after 15 minutes of maneuvers he announced that a "ground spoiler" was out and that he was going to try to see if things might get fixed.  He took us up to a very high alititude and did more maneuvers.  People were getting afraid now.  The older gentleman next to me stated, "This is not good." As the pilot maneuvered, presumably trying to fix the situation, I noticed that when he turned to the right, the rear of the plane made a periodic, awful ticking sound.  This resonated with my memory of an article about the calamity involving that Airbus headed for the Dominican Republic.  It had mentioned that the tail may have broken off, perhaps due to the carbon fiber construction. The pilot managed to land the plane.  It seemed to me that he activated the flaps earlier than normal so that we had a feathery descent.  The strange thing was that the tail of the plane was fishtailing gently the whole way down.  I had concerns that this might introduce some risk into the touchdown. I did some research today, as I am planning another trip, and am trying to determine whether or not to fly on airbuses anymore.  I found that 5 dozen AA pilots have signed a petition to get their corporation to ground the Airbus portion of the fleet. While I may have thought these people were overreacting before my scary experience, now I think there is something to it.  How do you rate the danger of Airbus aircraft, and is there cause to steer away from this brand of airliner?

Not really. Any airplane can have a stuck spoiler and it’s not a big deal. Better to land with it stowed, but not a big problem to land with one deployed or floating either. Bertie

Response:

[...] If he has a problem encountered during landing what sense does it make to fly back to the point of departure to land and let them off instead of landing at the destination where is he now? Sorry…I didn’t read the post carefully enough, and thought the event was after departure, not at the destination. The rest of my reply stands, however.

Strikes me there was poor communication between the crew and the passengers. They needed to be reassured that, apart from a minor problem, everything was in order, and they would be delayed whilst the flight crew "test flew" the aeroplane for a bit. Cheers Blippie — Visit the alt.aviation.safety FAQ online at www.blippie.org.uk

Response:

All together … Ahhh … de Havilland! Cheers Blippie — Visit the alt.aviation.safety FAQ online at www.blippie.org.uk

Response:

How do you rate the danger of Airbus aircraft, and is there cause to steer away from this brand of airliner? Not really. Any airplane can have a stuck spoiler and it’s not a big deal. Better to land with it stowed, but not a big problem to land with one deployed or floating either.

In other words, things break every day. Cheers Blippie — Visit the alt.aviation.safety FAQ online at www.blippie.org.uk

Response:

Sorry DG, I dont believe a word of this so called experience.

The first clue should have been a cross-post to the "rec.aviation.safety" looneybin. — Jim Fisher Cherokee 180 www.EAAChapter615.org

Response:

Strikes me there was poor communication between the crew and the passengers. They needed to be reassured that, apart from a minor problem, everything was in order, and they would be delayed whilst the flight crew "test flew" the aeroplane for a bit.

Well, that may be.  But it wouldn’t justify my comment about not flying that airline again. Additionally, passengers are going to get nervous, period.  If anything unusual happens, the first thing they do is start thinking the airplane is going to crash.  Most people have no control over their imaginations, and let fear control them.  This is true at any time in their lives, and it doesn’t change when they get on an airliner. It might be that the crew could have done more to try to comfort the passengers, I’m not sure.  But the fact is, for many of the passengers, having the crew tell them that nothing serious was wrong would just be — to them — proof that something serious IS wrong. Once equipment on the airplane starts acting up, it’s pretty much a no-win situation for the crew.  The best they can do is concentrate on their jobs and get the plane on the ground safely. Pete

Response:

But the fact is, for many of the passengers, having the crew tell them that nothing serious was wrong would just be — to them — proof that something serious IS wrong.

In other words, it’s a conspiracy and a coverup by the infamous aviation cabal. — Larry Fransson Seattle, WA

Response:

Airbus has long had a nickname of "Scarebus" among some in the industry. Personally I think Airbus tries too hard to gadgetize aircraft instead of just working on fundamental things like safety, reliability, economy, and the like.  I guess they figure that sets them apart from Boeing and other companies that still emphasize these latter concepts, or something. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We were almost about touchdown when the pilot pulled up violently on the stick.  He then did big figure eights along the Las Vegas strip. All on the Airbus 320 were completely mystified, if not a bit scared. Finally after 15 minutes of maneuvers he announced that a "ground spoiler" was out and that he was going to try to see if things might get fixed.  He took us up to a very high alititude and did more maneuvers.  People were getting afraid now.  The older gentleman next to me stated, "This is not good." As the pilot maneuvered, presumably trying to fix the situation, I noticed that when he turned to the right, the rear of the plane made a periodic, awful ticking sound.  This resonated with my memory of an article about the calamity involving that Airbus headed for the Dominican Republic.  It had mentioned that the tail may have broken off, perhaps due to the carbon fiber construction. The pilot managed to land the plane.  It seemed to me that he activated the flaps earlier than normal so that we had a feathery descent.  The strange thing was that the tail of the plane was fishtailing gently the whole way down.  I had concerns that this might introduce some risk into the touchdown. I did some research today, as I am planning another trip, and am trying to determine whether or not to fly on airbuses anymore.  I found that 5 dozen AA pilots have signed a petition to get their corporation to ground the Airbus portion of the fleet. While I may have thought these people were overreacting before my scary experience, now I think there is something to it.  How do you rate the danger of Airbus aircraft, and is there cause to steer away from this brand of airliner? Thanks, DG

Response:

How do you rate the danger of Airbus aircraft, and is there cause to steer away from this brand of airliner? Not really. Any airplane can have a stuck spoiler and it’s not a big deal. Better to land with it stowed, but not a big problem to land with one deployed or floating either. In other words, things break every day.

Yep. bertie

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – #2 As a pilot there are only two things I can think of that would cause me to abort a landing during flare/short final, remembering I forgot the gear, and something blocking the runway. Thern you’re not thinking much. Brake failure, landing too deep, loss of vis… Bertie … finding the Before Landing Checklist between the power levers…now there’s a poser!

Or stuck under the seat rails. Bertie

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – #2 As a pilot there are only two things I can think of that would cause me to abort a landing during flare/short final, remembering I forgot the gear, and something blocking the runway. Thern you’re not thinking much. Brake failure, landing too deep, loss of vis… OMG – you just reminded me of the time John ( cats eyes ) Cunningham – de Hav’s senior test pilot – landed a 125 gear up at LTN. Made a nice job of it apparently – didn’t need too much of a repair IIRC. His ‘excuse’ to the CAA was classically simple – ‘I forgot to lower the gear’ ! Think he got his head slapped and told not to do it again.

What else could they say to him? Bertie

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – #2 As a pilot there are only two things I can think of that would cause me to abort a landing during flare/short final, remembering I forgot the gear, and something blocking the runway. Thern you’re not thinking much. Brake failure, landing too deep, loss of vis… OMG – you just reminded me of the time John ( cats eyes ) Cunningham – de Hav’s senior test pilot – landed a 125 gear up at LTN. Made a nice job of it apparently – didn’t need too much of a repair IIRC. His ‘excuse’ to the CAA was classically simple – ‘I forgot to lower the gear’ ! Think he got his head slapped and told not to do it again. What else could they say to him? Bertie

I know – that’s the funny bit ! Pooh.

Response:

Sorry DG, I dont believe a word of this so called experience. #3 So you did figure eights over the strip huh??  Sure you did buddy.  I am so sure that ATC   told the pilot of a plane that just aborted a landing because of a problem  to go do figure eights OVER a high density population area when theres is all kinds of empty desert close by.   Besides that, the strip is too close to the airport, under most conditions doing figure eights along the strip would impede traffic in and out of the airport.

I agree, very implausible for this to happen given the close proximity of (a) KLAS, (b) populated area & (c) Nellis AFB. Can you provide details of the airline/date DG ? Regards, Andrew.

Response:

In other words, it’s a conspiracy and a coverup by the infamous aviation

cabal. Bascially, yes.  After all, the best evidence of a conspiracy is the continued denial of the conspiracy by the accused.  :)

Response:

Same thing occurred to be. Sounds like a bunch of BS. Murray – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sorry DG, I dont believe a word of this so called experience. #1  You state you were about to touch down. Maybe I am wrong but I do believe armed spoilers are triggered by a switch in the landing gear, the weight of the aircraft compresses a switch, bam, spoilers activate. If there had been a warning regarding them it would have been dealt with at altitude. #2 As a pilot there are only two things I can think of that would cause me to abort a landing during flare/short final, remembering I forgot the gear, and something blocking the runway.  I did once abort my first night XC landing when a group of deer ran across just ahead of us, we were so low and close the instructor and I both wondered how it was one of the leaping things didnt get pureed in the prop.  If theres a problem I want it to be when I am low, slow and decelerating over a runway and not high and fast. #3 So you did figure eights over the strip huh??  Sure you did buddy.  I am so sure that ATC   told the pilot of a plane that just aborted a landing because of a problem  to go do figure eights OVER a high density population area when theres is all kinds of empty desert close by.   Besides that, the strip is too close to the airport, under most conditions doing figure eights along the strip would impede traffic in and out of the airport. We were almost about touchdown when the pilot pulled up violently on the stick.  He then did big figure eights along the Las Vegas strip. All on the Airbus 320 were completely mystified, if not a bit scared. Finally after 15 minutes of maneuvers he announced that a "ground spoiler" was out and that he was going to try to see if things might get fixed.  He took us up to a very high alititude and did more maneuvers.  People were getting afraid now.  The older gentleman next to me stated, "This is not good." As the pilot maneuvered, presumably trying to fix the situation, I noticed that when he turned to the right, the rear of the plane made a periodic, awful ticking sound.  This resonated with my memory of an article about the calamity involving that Airbus headed for the Dominican Republic.  It had mentioned that the tail may have broken off, perhaps due to the carbon fiber construction. The pilot managed to land the plane.  It seemed to me that he activated the flaps earlier than normal so that we had a feathery descent.  The strange thing was that the tail of the plane was fishtailing gently the whole way down.  I had concerns that this might introduce some risk into the touchdown. I did some research today, as I am planning another trip, and am trying to determine whether or not to fly on airbuses anymore.  I found that 5 dozen AA pilots have signed a petition to get their corporation to ground the Airbus portion of the fleet. While I may have thought these people were overreacting before my scary experience, now I think there is something to it.  How do you rate the danger of Airbus aircraft, and is there cause to steer away from this brand of airliner? Thanks, DG

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – While I may have thought these people were overreacting before my scary experience, now I think there is something to it.  How do you rate the danger of Airbus aircraft, and is there cause to steer away from this brand of airliner? So far, all indications of the recent Airbus tail failure are that it had nothing to do with the nature of the composite construction (i.e. there was no delamination or other failure of that sort) and that it most likely had to do with exceeding the design limits of the tail attachment, which could happen to an all-metal plane or a composite plane. I *would* think about switching airlines.  I don’t know why your pilot decided it was appropriate to do in-flight testing with passengers aboard. Seems to me that if the problem was serious enough to require investigation before landing at your destination, it was serious enough to just return to your original departure point and let the passengers off. But as for Airbus planes…I don’t think there’s any more reason to fear them than to fear Boeing 737’s or any other plane for that matter. Pete

Pete; The poster indicated that the plane was having problems.  Just how is the pilot supposed decide what the problem is without the passengers onboard.   Is he supposed to just magically have the answer without any investagation?  As for returning the the point of departure and letting the passengers off, how do you propose he do that without landing?  Toss them out the door in flight?  If he has a problem encountered during landing what sense does it make to fly back to the point of departure to land and let them off instead of landing at the destination where is he now?

Response:

Sorry DG, I dont believe a word of this so called experience. #1  You state you were about to touch down. Maybe I am wrong but I do believe armed spoilers are triggered by a switch in the landing gear, the weight of the aircraft compresses a switch, bam, spoilers activate. If there had been a warning regarding them it would have been dealt with at altitude. #2 As a pilot there are only two things I can think of that would cause me to abort a landing during flare/short final, remembering I forgot the gear, and something blocking the runway.  I did once abort my first night XC landing when a group of deer ran across just ahead of us, we were so low and close the instructor and I both wondered how it was one of the leaping things didnt get pureed in the prop.  If theres a problem I want it to be when I am low, slow and decelerating over a runway and not high and fast. #3 So you did figure eights over the strip huh??  Sure you did buddy.  I am so sure that ATC   told the pilot of a plane that just aborted a landing because of a problem  to go do figure eights OVER a high density population area when theres is all kinds of empty desert close by.   Besides that, the strip is too close to the airport, under most conditions doing figure eights along the strip would impede traffic in and out of the airport.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We were almost about touchdown when the pilot pulled up violently on the stick.  He then did big figure eights along the Las Vegas strip. All on the Airbus 320 were completely mystified, if not a bit scared. Finally after 15 minutes of maneuvers he announced that a "ground spoiler" was out and that he was going to try to see if things might get fixed.  He took us up to a very high alititude and did more maneuvers.  People were getting afraid now.  The older gentleman next to me stated, "This is not good." As the pilot maneuvered, presumably trying to fix the situation, I noticed that when he turned to the right, the rear of the plane made a periodic, awful ticking sound.  This resonated with my memory of an article about the calamity involving that Airbus headed for the Dominican Republic.  It had mentioned that the tail may have broken off, perhaps due to the carbon fiber construction. The pilot managed to land the plane.  It seemed to me that he activated the flaps earlier than normal so that we had a feathery descent.  The strange thing was that the tail of the plane was fishtailing gently the whole way down.  I had concerns that this might introduce some risk into the touchdown. I did some research today, as I am planning another trip, and am trying to determine whether or not to fly on airbuses anymore.  I found that 5 dozen AA pilots have signed a petition to get their corporation to ground the Airbus portion of the fleet. While I may have thought these people were overreacting before my scary experience, now I think there is something to it.  How do you rate the danger of Airbus aircraft, and is there cause to steer away from this brand of airliner? Thanks, DG

Response:

While I may have thought these people were overreacting before my scary experience, now I think there is something to it.  How do you rate the danger of Airbus aircraft, and is there cause to steer away from this brand of airliner?

So far, all indications of the recent Airbus tail failure are that it had nothing to do with the nature of the composite construction (i.e. there was no delamination or other failure of that sort) and that it most likely had to do with exceeding the design limits of the tail attachment, which could happen to an all-metal plane or a composite plane. I *would* think about switching airlines.  I don’t know why your pilot decided it was appropriate to do in-flight testing with passengers aboard. Seems to me that if the problem was serious enough to require investigation before landing at your destination, it was serious enough to just return to your original departure point and let the passengers off. But as for Airbus planes…I don’t think there’s any more reason to fear them than to fear Boeing 737’s or any other plane for that matter. Pete

Response:

We were almost about touchdown when the pilot pulled up violently on the stick.  He then did big figure eights along the Las Vegas strip. All on the Airbus 320 were completely mystified, if not a bit scared. Finally after 15 minutes of maneuvers he announced that a "ground spoiler" was out and that he was going to try to see if things might get fixed.  He took us up to a very high alititude and did more maneuvers.  People were getting afraid now.  The older gentleman next to me stated, "This is not good." As the pilot maneuvered, presumably trying to fix the situation, I noticed that when he turned to the right, the rear of the plane made a periodic, awful ticking sound.  This resonated with my memory of an article about the calamity involving that Airbus headed for the Dominican Republic.  It had mentioned that the tail may have broken off, perhaps due to the carbon fiber construction. The pilot managed to land the plane.  It seemed to me that he activated the flaps earlier than normal so that we had a feathery descent.  The strange thing was that the tail of the plane was fishtailing gently the whole way down.  I had concerns that this might introduce some risk into the touchdown. I did some research today, as I am planning another trip, and am trying to determine whether or not to fly on airbuses anymore.  I found that 5 dozen AA pilots have signed a petition to get their corporation to ground the Airbus portion of the fleet. While I may have thought these people were overreacting before my scary experience, now I think there is something to it.  How do you rate the danger of Airbus aircraft, and is there cause to steer away from this brand of airliner? Thanks, DG

Response:

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