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Mt. Lions

Question:

I consider myself fortunate to live in an area which has enough natural habitat to support Mountain Lions.  And it’s not exactly backcountry; it’s more properly called suburbia.  I’ve seen a mountain lion in the Tennesee Valley area of the Golden Gate National Recreation Area, about 4 miles from my apartment in Sausalito, CA. This is practically within sight of downtown San Francisco (except that I saw the Lion down in a valley, so hills were between us and the City).  I talked to some rangers afterward, and they confirmed that mountain lions have been sighted by reliable sources in the area. Also, I’ve seen bobcats, coyotes, and foxes.  And deer are so common as to be a nuisance. Allowing hunters to hunt the mountain lions here is pretty much out of the question.  There are plenty of environmentalists (myself included) who would scream bloody murder if hunting were suggested in Southern Marin County; not only because of the damage it would do to the wildlife and environment, but also because of the danger of allowing hunting in such a populated area.  Since we’re so close to the City, all of the "backcountry" areas around here are pretty heavily used, and nobody wears blaze orange. The deer population is so large here that something needs to thin it out some, or else the deer will eventually consume their entire food supply.  It seems like cars have become the deer’s biggest "predator" (the deer are also a major "predator" of cars).  If this weren’t such a populated area, I wouldn’t have a problem with responsible human hunters culling the deer population, preferably with bow and arrow instead of shotgun.  But leave the mountain lions alone!  They help cull the deer population, and I think they’re almost certainly less dangerous to the human population than a bunch of shotguns carried by over-enthusiastic hunters. –Rich

Response:

Forget the bears, here in California lions are becoming more of a threat to those who use the backcountry.

Since I really do live in lion country, I’ve heard this same droll assertion before – usually by clowns wearing camo who are perturbed because I won’t let them control the "problem" on my property. Several years ago animal rights extremists lied to the voting population

and convinced them that lions were on the verge of extinction. Despite wildlife professionals assertions otherwise a ballot measure passed outlawing lion hunting. Surprise now there is a lion overpopulation problem. Besides having serious determental effect on deer herds there is increasing frequency

There is indeed lion hunting in Colorado, but it is quite limited.  There are several thousand lions spread around the mountainous areas on the state – and many, many mule deer.  The large, active documented lion population doesn’t seem to be hurting the deer (or elk) much, if at all. of lion/people contact with the lions acting in aggresive manner. I’ve read of backpackers being "stalked" and having to fend off the lion. Unlike bears lions are looking at you as a potential meal. In the southern Sierra region where I live, lions are becoming bolder and

Your header gives your organization as a hospital in Ohio. less afraid of humans. They have been coming into towns and killing anything they can get ahold of.

There have been incidents in Colorado, as well.  The jogger from Idaho Springs from a number of years back is often cited as an example of the Great Lion Menace. With the expansion of subdivisions into lion habitat, contact is inevitable. If you don’t like it, don’t move there.  Life in the boonies is horribly risky, you can’t get trash pickup, and TV reception is poor.  Better stay in town. But wait!  You’re not even safe there!  Run!  To someplace east of the Mississippi, where they’ve pretty much eliminated the Great Lion Menace(TM). Several have been killed inside city limits. I believe it is just a matter of time before a serious attack occurs on a backpacker.

Undoubtedly.  It’s a risk, just like any number of other aspects of backpacking.  Serious things can and do happen to backpackers. Maybe some people should be backpacking in Chicago, where it is, of course perfectly safe from lions, tigers and bears. I may be a bit acid and bitter here.  I’m tired of people pointing to some aspect of the natural environment and saying, "This is dangerous.  Let’s eliminate it.  This is interfering with our (hiking, hunting, skiing, etc.) recreational activity.  It must go.  We need the jobs.  Even though most of forest has already been cut (take a look at satellite photogaphs of the PNW some time) we have to cut the rest so we can pay the rent."  Well, how are your kids going to pay the rent?  We took our resources and destroyed the principle, instead of living off the interest.  We pasteurized and homgenized so that our living and working places look like New York or LA (safe and convenient, dontcha know?) and our recreation looks like Disney World.  We breed like flies and consume everything we can lay our hands on.  We force the lions into ever smaller spaces, and then kill them when they get desperate. Well, fine.  Let’s just do the job right.  Cut it down, kill every predator that’s not already stuffed, pave it over.  Look at all those resources, all that space, just going to waste!  Water in the river when it could be used for irrigation and power.  Trees standing when there are houses to be built, newspapers to be printed, toilet paper to be made.  Let ‘em wipe with a spotted owl!  Development!  Merchandising!  Cats, bears, wolves – they’re hazards.  Kill ‘em all, put a bounty on each hide.  We did it to the Indians, so animals should be easy.  Let’s put America to WORK.  If our kids have any spine, they’ll figure out their own way.          John Cooley          Ed Abbey wuz right.

Response:

Forget the bears, here in California lions are becoming more of a threat to those who use the backcountry. [snip] I’ve read of backpackers being "stalked" and having to fend off the lion. Unlike bears lions are looking at you as a potential meal.

[snip] I’ve probably read the same article. I’t detailed how to act when confronted by a Big Cat in dinner mode. So..maybe I will make a T-shirt….and put a big kitty on it too. "You know, out there, we’re all part of the food chain." The campground host at Green River Lakes Campground, WY. Bill

Response:

   Forget the bears, here in California lions are becoming more of a threat   to those who use the backcountry.

I whish this was a joke, but I assume it is not. …   Surprise now there is a lion overpopulation problem. Besides  having serious determental effect on deer herds

Overpopulation, really? It is very rare that a predatror population can become oversized in its natural habitat (so that it would endanger its pray population). The excess number of predators simply starv away. Pumas and deers have coexisted and coevolved for millions of years wihtout human interference. Why should there all the sudden be a problem? Mr. Thurm might benefit from consulting basic biology text books. …  I believe it is just a matter of time before a serious attack occurs  on a backpacker.

So no human victims in California yet? How about victims of road accidents, domestic accidents, air pollution (esp. LA), violent crime, infectious disease, …? Surely the amount of protective measure should be in some proportion to the risk. Very similar basic misunderstandings of population dynamics and highly irrational risk assesments have been used all too often over here in Finland too, in the discussion of the size of eg. the wolf population. BTW, there have been no documented cases of killings of humans by wolves for at least 100 years here. Markus Bjoerksten

Response:

Before I forget…that should have read: "just to see a *mountain lion*…"   Oops!

Response:

| |  Forget the bears, here in California lions are becoming more of a threat | to those who use the backcountry. |  Several years ago animal rights extremists lied to the voting population | and convinced them that lions were on the verge of extinction. Despite | wildlife professionals assertions otherwise a ballot measure passed outlawing | lion hunting. Surprise now there is a lion overpopulation problem. Besides | having serious determental effect on deer herds there is increasing frequency | of lion/people contact with the lions acting in aggresive manner. I’ve read | of backpackers being "stalked" and having to fend off the lion. Unlike bears | lions are looking at you as a potential meal. |  In the southern Sierra region where I live, lions are becoming bolder and | less afraid of humans. They have been coming into towns and killing anything | they can get ahold of. Several have been killed inside city limits. I believe | it is just a matter of time before a serious attack occurs on a backpacker. | Hold on….reality check! All documented lion attacks on humans in CA have been from lions that were raised in captivity and then illegally released by the idiots that once owned them (hence the lions’ fearlessness around humans). Encounters inside "city limits" are likely due to the recent destruction of their habitat, not some mythical population explosion of lions. It is still legal in CA for any livestock rancher to hunt and kill a lion that has been preying on his animals. The same is true for communities where their little muffydogs ™ are taken for dinner by a lion. The main driver behind banning "sport" hunting of lions in CA was primarily due to the methods employed, i.e. hunters loose a pack of hounds to find and tree a lion, then the studly men (& women) shoot the lion out of the tree. Often the lion will fall asleep in the tree when it becomes bored with the ruckus the dogs raise below. (This was told to me by a lion hunter from Oregon.) Such sport. This is all documented by the CA Fish & Game. The CA F&G will also admit that there’s never been an accurate lion census done in the state–any sincere ranger will admit that they don’t have a clue as to how many lions exist in CA because there are so few they’re almost impossible to count accurately. -Peter — "Comp. support is the opiate of the physicist." -Paul Spencer

Response:

 Forget the bears, here in California lions are becoming more of a threat to those who use the backcountry.

        Utter nonsense, of course.  Mr. Thurm is, perhaps, another mis-         information victim, lead astray by local media.  The San Jose         Mercury News ran a couple articles several months ago about the         supposed dangers to Californians from mountain lions — easily         the worst bit of "reporting" I’ve read since moving to the bay         area.  I’ve been backpacking in CA for almost 20 years and have         never seen one mountain lion!  I’ve visited the Ventana Wilder-         ness (supposedly one of the nation’s mountain lion-rich areas)         six times — still no sightings.  Is there a single experienced         CA backcountry traveler reading this newsgroup that would agree         with the assertion that mountain lions are a threat? Several years ago animal rights extremists lied to the voting population and convinced them that lions were on the verge of extinction. Despite wildlife professionals assertions otherwise a ballot measure passed outlawing lion hunting. Surprise now there is a lion overpopulation problem.

        Ahh.  Mr. Thurm reveals that he is a CA hunting guide, one of the         few with internet access.  Anyway, stating that there is a lion         overpopulation problem is simply one of a thousand heinous ways of         gilding the real problem: urban sprawl. Besides having serious determental effect on deer herds

        A sweeping indictment against mountain lions that you could never,         happily, back up.  Incidentally, where in CA are deer suffering? there is increasing frequency of lion/people contact with the lions acting in aggresive manner. I’ve read of backpackers being "stalked" and having to fend off the lion. Unlike bears lions are looking at you as a potential meal. In the southern Sierra region where I live, lions are becoming bolder and less afraid of humans. They have been coming into towns and killing anything they can get ahold of. Several have been killed inside city limits. I believe it is just a matter of time before a serious attack occurs on a backpacker.

        Sounds like the trailer for a 50’s B movie about radioactive lions         from space, or some such.  To date I think there are only a handful         of credible "stalking" incidents and I’m not familiar with the most         recent media cow: the two equestrians that were chased by a lion in         Southern California a couple months ago.  But I’m willing to admit         that, as we continue to pave the state into one continuous shopping         mall parking lot people will, now and again, see mountain lions;         some will be chased, unattended children and pets may get mauled or         killed and society will continue to support the inevitable depreda-         tions. Mark Drury                      May the Pope’s Homers get

Response:

 Forget the bears, here in California lions are becoming more of a threat to those who use the backcountry.  Several years ago animal rights extremists lied to the voting population and convinced them that lions were on the verge of extinction. Despite wildlife professionals assertions otherwise a ballot measure passed outlawing lion hunting. Surprise now there is a lion overpopulation problem. Besides having serious determental effect on deer herds there is increasing frequency of lion/people contact with the lions acting in aggresive manner. I’ve read of backpackers being "stalked" and having to fend off the lion. Unlike bears lions are looking at you as a potential meal.  In the southern Sierra region where I live, lions are becoming bolder and less afraid of humans. They have been coming into towns and killing anything they can get ahold of. Several have been killed inside city limits. I believe it is just a matter of time before a serious attack occurs on a backpacker. —

Response:

| |  Forget the bears, here in California lions are becoming more of a threat | to those who use the backcountry. |  Several years ago animal rights extremists lied to the voting population | and convinced them that lions were on the verge of extinction. Despite | wildlife professionals assertions otherwise a ballot measure passed outlawing | lion hunting. Surprise now there is a lion overpopulation problem. Besides | having serious determental effect on deer herds there is increasing frequency | of lion/people contact with the lions acting in aggresive manner. I’ve read | of backpackers being "stalked" and having to fend off the lion. Unlike bears | lions are looking at you as a potential meal. |  In the southern Sierra region where I live, lions are becoming bolder and | less afraid of humans. They have been coming into towns and killing anything | they can get ahold of. Several have been killed inside city limits. I believe | it is just a matter of time before a serious attack occurs on a backpacker. | |                                   | — This is a joke. I would consider myself lucky just see a mountain in the backcountry. Besides, they’re just big kitty’s.  :-) -Immanuel

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