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chicken or the egg?

Question:

Well, one thing that my counselor has been adamant in reminding me during my separation is that I should not get involved seriously with anyone until the first year has passed since it began. …

But when do you start the timer?  I’ve been separated for 18+ months.  The divorce trial ended 8+ months ago.  Things aren’t final, I’m not divorced, but I’ve learned a lot and waited a long time.  I feel ready to date — though likely not ready to have a "serious" long-term relationship.                                                Chris — Christopher Nelson, Sr. Software Engineer         Pinebush Technologies, Inc. Author: Tcl/Tk Programmer’s Reference    http://www.purl.org/net/TclTkProgRef

Response:

During my separation, I became very involved with a wonderful woman, divorced, with two boys.  I fell in love instantly, and things were progressing well. Somehow, something changed and she turned my life upside down again, ditching me last night in what turned into a very dramatic spectacle.  She injured me like I never believed imaginable.  It was somehow MUCH worse than the slow spiral of decline my ex-wife and I

experienced. Joey, The part I snipped sounds sooo familiar…..why is it that those "after marriage" relationships hurt so bad??? I totally know what your saying….and all I can say is me too! I felt the devastation of it so much more acutely than I did my 13 yr marriage…doesn’t make sense does it??? Is it perhaps because "she" was new/wonderful/exciting and we expended the energies on them that we failed to towards our spouses? (towards the end of the marriage)…. I have sat and tried to figure this out as you seem to be. Thats all I can come up with…cause even after my divorce…I had a lot left to give someone I felt……I just couldnt overcome "her" past hurts etc…In her eyes apparently I was just another guy with empty words….NOT!! But she ruined me too…..now my walls are WAY up there again!! Good luck man ..and stay positive and focused…do what I learned to do…don’t TRY too hard….relearn who you are…I know,  I know I didnt want to hear that either……but ya gotta refocus…….Lee

Response:

Well, one thing that my counselor has been adamant in reminding me during my separation is that I should not get involved seriously with anyone until the first year has passed since it began. Perhaps, you didn’t wait long enough? Maybe she was "Rebound girl"? We all want to find that special someone, but any relationship that starts too soon after the separation or divorce is destined to be built on a shaky foundation. Perhaps you should think about that, since it sounds like you were separated and immediately grasped the first lifeline that was thrown to you (I may be wrong here, since your post didn’t include a timeline or anything….). My advice : Talk to a counselor, continue dating, but keep your eye’s open. Try to have a few casual relationships before looking to get overly involved with another woman, since you sort of have to find what you are looking for. And keep posting, since the fact that you are dating tells me that maybe I will have more than one date with a woman before I get scared and push her away before I die! :-) Before you buy.

Response:

Joe, I think it’s pretty cool that you’re not completely turned off of the idea of finding someone else.  Probably a little soon, but I’ve always found (at least when I was dating – over 20 years ago – (can I really be that old?) ) that the best relationships come when you are not actively looking for them.  I think because you then meet people in your most comfortable and natural state – not trying to make an impression.  It occurs to me that you don’t have to reject the notion of finding someone, but to be actively seeking out "the one" probably isn’t the answer either. The thought of dating scares the living daylights out of me.  I’ve even had friends who have come up with "suitable candidates" but I’m nowhere near ready for that (certainly not pining for my s2bx, just learning to enjoy my own company and rely on myself and discover my own capabilities).  Still, I would just love to kind of melt into a really good snuggle with someone special.  As for companionship and conversation, my friends have been wonderful, but sometimes you just need that all encompassing hug, eh?  I guess I’ll just enjoy it that much more down the road a ways. Califhome

Response:

First off, I’d like to say "thanks" for the well-intentioned advice from all who responded.  The verdict seems clear, and I am scheduled to see a therapist tomorrow.  I’ve no idea what to expect, but I can hope, a little, I guess… I got divorced in November after a marriage of 13 years.  I believe my wife left because she decided being married wasn’t worth the bother, since she could never have children. I’m sure she’d tell another story, but there’s one thing I know:  To every tragic story there are three sides: his, hers, and the truth. This is one of those moral equivalencies matters that I happen not to believe. In some cases, it may be true, that both ex’s views of the past is about equally at varaince from an objective view of the truth. This is most likely when the divorce is planned, and amicable, with no affairs, and all that, to cloud the issues.

For the record, my divorce was planned, basically amicable, and there were no affairs, etc.  There are no children involved.  And I agree that it’s unlikely that each person’s view is EQUALLY far from the truth, but it makes sense to me that neither of us can be truly objective in something so important. ( Sound of Star Trek Red Alent claxons ) " Rebound Alert ! Rebound Alert ! "

I’m sure this is correct, in retrospect. It’s my considered opinion that, after a gut wrenching split, that one who has properly healed, and considered, and integrated the lessons of the marriage that is no more, and of the divorce, is no longer as vulnerable to such pain ( Note: I said AS vulnerable. That is a relative term ).

For whatever reason(s), I think I am suffering a lot more than my ex-wife, and certainly more than my ex-girlfriend. Joey

Response:

First off, I’d like to say "thanks" for the well-intentioned advice from all who responded.  The verdict seems clear, and I am scheduled to see a therapist tomorrow.  I’ve no idea what to expect, but I can hope, a little, I guess…

Good. If you knew just what to expect, then the exercise would be kinda futile, right ? Sort of like taking a course on a topic that you know as well as the prof… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I got divorced in November after a marriage of 13 years.  I believe my wife left because she decided being married wasn’t worth the bother, since she could never have children. I’m sure she’d tell another story, but there’s one thing I know:  To every tragic story there are three sides: his, hers, and the truth. This is one of those moral equivalencies matters that I happen not to believe. In some cases, it may be true, that both ex’s views of the past is about equally at varaince from an objective view of the truth. This is most likely when the divorce is planned, and amicable, with no affairs, and all that, to cloud the issues. For the record, my divorce was planned, basically amicable, and there were no affairs, etc.  There are no children involved.  And I agree that it’s unlikely that each person’s view is EQUALLY far from the truth, but it makes sense to me that neither of us can be truly objective in something so important.

Oh, I think that I disagree there, too. Many people have the ability to be extremely objective about al aspects of their lives. It’s just that, at times, one can be too wrapped up in a matter, to see what there is. But, once you see it, it can be seen for what it is, and isn’t. You both have your own points of view. In many areas, neither will be " wrong ", but both can be incomplete. Mainly in terms of emotional responses to events and words. But, the fact of who did what, and who said what is a lot tougher to argue about, *if* both people are well established as being objective about such things. But, it’s both rare to get two who are equally objective, as it is to get two who are equally non objective, about such things. So, there will generally be a variance in the spread of the relative non objectivity about factual events. ( Sound of Star Trek Red Alent claxons ) " Rebound Alert ! Rebound Alert ! " I’m sure this is correct, in retrospect.

The point is not to get into situations, where one will have to learn things, in retrosprct. Doing that consistantly will leave the person always *re*acting to evets, rather then acting upon them. So, rebounds, if they are mistaken for being more then they are, can leave one feeling helpless, especially as a rebound generally comes on the heels of a former relationship, where the rebounder felt helpless about the ending of that situation. Two close such events, and that can reinforce the wrong idea that the person doing that cannot control enough of their life, to make themselves better as people, and to finally get into better quality long term relationships. If that’s the ( wrong ) lesson that is learned, then that person’s chances for a healthy long term relationship go *way* down. For a ton of good reasons. It’s my considered opinion that, after a gut wrenching split, that one who has properly healed, and considered, and integrated the lessons of the marriage that is no more, and of the divorce, is no longer as vulnerable to such pain ( Note: I said AS vulnerable. That is a relative term ). For whatever reason(s), I think I am suffering a lot more than my ex-wife, and certainly more than my ex-girlfriend.

But, that’s irrelevant. It’s not about are you, or whatever " her " suffering more, or less. It’s about becoming stronger in yourself, and thus rebuilding your own ability to get close, and to be vulnerable, while, at the same time, a part of that newer strength making you tougher about how much less pain life can make you feel. If you take a knife to the chest, if you are more muscled, the knife may not get through to your heart. Thus, the same wound that could have killed you, before you built up the muscles, will now be painful, but not necessarily " mortal " to you. It’s about the you of now, the you of before, and the you of the future. No one else. To be blunt, who cares about wheteher you or the ex wife, or g/f are hurting ? Whose life are you going to live, from this day forth ? *That’s* whose healing and growth you need to concentrate on. Joey

Andre — " The noblest achievement of the imagination is to make time run some other way, and terminate in beauty and forgivness "                                          David Gelernter, " 1939 "

Response:

I got divorced in November after a marriage of 13 years.  I believe my wife left because she decided being married wasn’t worth the bother, since she could never have children. I’m sure she’d tell another story, but there’s one thing I know:  To every tragic story there are three sides: his, hers, and the truth.

This is one of those moral equivalencies matters that I happen not to believe. In some cases, it may be true, that both ex’s views of the past is about equally at varaince from an objective view of the truth. This is most likely when the divorce is planned, and amicable, with no affairs, and all that, to cloud the issues. But, not all divorces are like that. Very often, there is rancour, there has been an affair, or more then one, or other forms of cruelty, and most often said cruelty is not " equally distributed ", nor is the post marital effort to understand the meaning to the self of all that did, and did not occur in the marriage, and the divorce. In such examples, it’s more likely that one of the former pair’s view of the history *is* much closer to the onjective record, than is the other’s view, when that one is still in cloud cukcoo land. In such a case, there could be one’s side, and the facts. No more. No " third " option… During my separation, I became very involved with a wonderful woman, divorced, with two boys.  I fell in love instantly, and things were progressing well.  Somehow, something changed and she turned my life upside down again, ditching me last night in what turned into a very dramatic spectacle.  She injured me like I never believed imaginable.  It was somehow MUCH worse than the slow spiral of decline my ex-wife and I experienced.

( Sound of Star Trek Red Alent claxons ) " Rebound Alert ! Rebound Alert ! " It’s my considered opinion that, after a gut wrenching split, that one who has properly healed, and considered, and integrated the lessons of the marriage that is no more, and of the divorce, is no longer as vulnerable to such pain ( Note: I said AS vulnerable. That is a relative term ). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Now my chicken-and-egg question is this?  Some people offer the well-intended advice that I should get a therapist and work through these and other issues before considering romance again, because I’m no good to anyone until I come to resolution.  Others, equally well-meaning, say that I should just drive on and find someone who suits me better, that they were surprised we lasted as long as we did before we broke up.  The work on "issues" can come while I’m out there "enjoying" life. Which is right?  Sometimes I am utterly incapable of enjoying anything, and other times I feel I might be getting better.  But either way, I am so lonely, and have been for so long (the last few years of my marriage), that I feel I’m about to just break into little pieces.  I know I need some "fixing," but I long for someone to love me through these problems.  I can’t conceive of doing NOTHING for months or years while I am going through some nebulous process with a therapist.  But by the same token, if I really am "damaged goods" then how can I proceed to find real love from a worthy woman?

Let’s put it this way. Think of yourself as an airplane. The field where you are has just been heavily strafed, and there are dozens of bullet holes in the structure of your wings, gas tanks, and the like. Now, do you get fixed, or do you fly, right now, leaking gas all over the place, and with wings that now won’t even lift an empty " you " from the runway, never mind flying with passengers aboard, too ? When you get better, there won’t be any doubt about it. When you have days that are that far apart, in both directions, you’re not there yet. Yet. And, if what you want, post divorce, is to be able to make yourself a part of a healthy, and mutually satisfying relationship, then you have to be fit enough to have a lot to offer back to the lady who will love you. Being in love and with that someone is *not* " therapy ". No one can make you better, without *you* doing all of the work. And, no one can " make " you happy. All that anyone can do is to offer you a place to be happiER in. No one has said that you need to be doing " nothing " while going through a " neboulous " process. Au contraire, what I made happen for myself, in rebuilding myself from the ground on up, was neither done in a vacuum, nor was it mushy. It was done with the freindship of a lot of wonderful friends, and it involved many concrete steps, and realisations. Then, that was followed by the effort to properly integrate the lessons thus learned into the core of my life and values. It was a tough effort, in many ways the toughest thing that I’ve ever done, but it was well worth it, *and* it was critical that while I was doing so, I was *not* involved in a long term relationship. Dating, and being with friends is fine. We’re all social creatures. Even, if it’s within your abilities to understand that sex and lust are not *love*, short term mutual relationships can be good. But, even there, it’s vital that such not be entered into as a " dependent " person. Any relationship with another person *must* be a give *and* take matter. If you’re only getting from the other, no matter that you’re sleeping with them, or not, that’s not healthy for either person. So, my prognosis for you is do everything to recover from your two experiences. See a counselor, and/or a therapist, as you need to. Don’t get into any serious relationships until you are healed, and you will know for sure, when that day dawns. If you have to ask, then you’re not there… yet. See your friends, and even make new ones. Have fun. Don’t just stay home and mope. Unless you’re reading some good books ( I’m a bear on literacy ), and then you’d not be moping, but having fun, yes ? It gets better, but not on it’s own. You have to *make* it that, for yourself. No one can " give " it to you. We all have to fully earn it. Go to it. "If thou beest he–but O how fallen! " — Milton Joey

Andre — " The noblest achievement of the imagination is to make time run some other way, and terminate in beauty and forgivness "                                          David Gelernter, " 1939 "

Response:

Lisa, you are so, right on, here.  Joe, you should think about you and being healthy.  Then I think healthier decisions will be made.  My s2bx and I talked about this exact thing an hour ago.  I think we both agree on that but both now need to focus on it.  Who knows where you will end up. Glos – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Joe, I can relate to what you’re saying, believe me.  I strongly suggest the book, Rebuilding by Bruce Fisher.  He talks specifically about your concerns, the wanting and needing a new love relationship verses getting yourself healthy and whole.  I have to say that I’ve struggled with this, thinking to myself "Gee, if I only had someone to love me I wouldn’t feel so alone".  But I do believe (in my head mind you, not my heart) that jumping into another relationship at this point can only end in frustration.  Just as it did the first time for you.  You need to feel good about YOU, before you can really know what you want out of that special someone who is lucky enough to find you someday. Easy to say, but harder to do, right?  Just some food for thought. I wish you the best.  Now if I could only take my own advice.  <sigh Lisa I got divorced in November after a marriage of 13 years.  I believe my wife left because she decided being married wasn’t worth the bother, since she could never have children. I’m sure she’d tell another story, but there’s one thing I know:  To every tragic story there are three sides: his, hers, and the truth. During my separation, I became very involved with a wonderful woman, divorced, with two boys.  I fell in love instantly, and things were progressing well. Somehow, something changed and she turned my life upside down again, ditching me last night in what turned into a very dramatic spectacle.  She injured me like I never believed imaginable.  It was somehow MUCH worse than the slow spiral of decline my ex-wife and I experienced. Now my chicken-and-egg question is this?  Some people offer the

well-intended advice that – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I should get a therapist and work through these and other issues before considering romance again, because I’m no good to anyone until I come to resolution. Others, equally well-meaning, say that I should just drive on and find someone who suits me better, that they were surprised we lasted as long as we did before we broke up.  The work on "issues" can come while I’m out there "enjoying" life. Which is right?  Sometimes I am utterly incapable of enjoying anything, and other times I feel I might be getting better.  But either way, I am so lonely, and have been for so long (the last few years of my marriage), that I feel I’m about to just break into little pieces.  I know I need some "fixing," but I long for someone to love me through these problems.  I can’t conceive of doing NOTHING for months or years while I am going through some nebulous process with a therapist.  But by the same token, if I really am "damaged goods" then how can I proceed to find real love from a worthy woman? "If thou beest he–but O how fallen! " — Milton Joey

Response:

Joe, I can relate to what you’re saying, believe me.  I strongly suggest the book, Rebuilding by Bruce Fisher.  He talks specifically about your concerns, the wanting and needing a new love relationship verses getting yourself healthy and whole.  I have to say that I’ve struggled with this, thinking to myself "Gee, if I only had someone to love me I wouldn’t feel so alone".  But I do believe (in my head mind you, not my heart) that jumping into another relationship at this point can only end in frustration.  Just as it did the first time for you.  You need to feel good about YOU, before you can really know what you want out of that special someone who is lucky enough to find you someday.   Easy to say, but harder to do, right?  Just some food for thought. I wish you the best.  Now if I could only take my own advice.  <sigh Lisa – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I got divorced in November after a marriage of 13 years.  I believe my wife left because she decided being married wasn’t worth the bother, since she could never have children. I’m sure she’d tell another story, but there’s one thing I know:  To every tragic story there are three sides: his, hers, and the truth. During my separation, I became very involved with a wonderful woman, divorced, with two boys.  I fell in love instantly, and things were progressing well.  Somehow, something changed and she turned my life upside down again, ditching me last night in what turned into a very dramatic spectacle.  She injured me like I never believed imaginable.  It was somehow MUCH worse than the slow spiral of decline my ex-wife and I experienced. Now my chicken-and-egg question is this?  Some people offer the well-intended advice that I should get a therapist and work through these and other issues before considering romance again, because I’m no good to anyone until I come to resolution.  Others, equally well-meaning, say that I should just drive on and find someone who suits me better, that they were surprised we lasted as long as we did before we broke up.  The work on "issues" can come while I’m out there "enjoying" life. Which is right?  Sometimes I am utterly incapable of enjoying anything, and other times I feel I might be getting better.  But either way, I am so lonely, and have been for so long (the last few years of my marriage), that I feel I’m about to just break into little pieces.  I know I need some "fixing," but I long for someone to love me through these problems.  I can’t conceive of doing NOTHING for months or years while I am going through some nebulous process with a therapist.  But by the same token, if I really am "damaged goods" then how can I proceed to find real love from a worthy woman? "If thou beest he–but O how fallen! " — Milton Joey

Response:

I got divorced in November after a marriage of 13 years.  I believe my wife left because she decided being married wasn’t worth the bother, since she could never have children. I’m sure she’d tell another story, but there’s one thing I know:  To every tragic story there are three sides: his, hers, and the truth. During my separation, I became very involved with a wonderful woman, divorced, with two boys.  I fell in love instantly, and things were progressing well.  Somehow, something changed and she turned my life upside down again, ditching me last night in what turned into a very dramatic spectacle.  She injured me like I never believed imaginable.  It was somehow MUCH worse than the slow spiral of decline my ex-wife and I experienced. Now my chicken-and-egg question is this?  Some people offer the well-intended advice that I should get a therapist and work through these and other issues before considering romance again, because I’m no good to anyone until I come to resolution.  Others, equally well-meaning, say that I should just drive on and find someone who suits me better, that they were surprised we lasted as long as we did before we broke up.  The work on "issues" can come while I’m out there "enjoying" life. Which is right?  Sometimes I am utterly incapable of enjoying anything, and other times I feel I might be getting better.  But either way, I am so lonely, and have been for so long (the last few years of my marriage), that I feel I’m about to just break into little pieces.  I know I need some "fixing," but I long for someone to love me through these problems.  I can’t conceive of doing NOTHING for months or years while I am going through some nebulous process with a therapist.  But by the same token, if I really am "damaged goods" then how can I proceed to find real love from a worthy woman? "If thou beest he–but O how fallen! " — Milton Joey

Response:

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