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Details, Details

Question:

It seems we get into very intricate details about weight loss here. The curious thing is that people overeat for years then split hairs over a gram of something or a ten calorie differntial.

It’s probably because both dieting and overeating are the two sides of the same coin. Many people diet the way they overeat, in an obsessive fashion. They micro-manage their food intake, they spend hours in the gym, they plan their meals a week ahead… That’s the same kind of obsessive energy that allowed them to overeat. Actually, to some, dieting is just a form of controlled anorexia. I don’t mean the part about hurting your body through deprivation, that one is just a byproduct of the anorexia. Anorexia is about total control of your own body, just like compulsive esthetic surgery or compulsive body-building. I think that’s what some dieters are into. I suspect some actually like things being difficult, challenging or painful (some people complain when a nutritionist gives them a diet that is not restrictive enough for instance), because it makes the whole process praiseworthy. Finding a middle ground is the tricky part, because it means becoming normal. Normal as in not exceptionnal, not worth of special attention or praise or anything, just plain old normal.   The name of the game IMO is a workable plan with a lifetime gurranty   and one that does not specify a special amount of weigh to be lost   weekly or by a certain date since the body doesn’t grind out fat loss   as consistenly as we set exacting goals. In order to be able to follow that kind of plan, you need enough self acceptance to be comfortable with whatever weight you are in during the process. If you manage to feel at peace with yourself, stalls, slow downs or even bumps are not a problem anymore : you just enjoy whatever point you are at. But many people just obsess about a "goal", even to the point of forgetting to live until they reach it. I have often read people saying they won’t buy clothes (or only some that are too tight), try to find a spouse, a new job or whatever until they have "reached their goals". It’s like they stop living until they are done with the weight loss. Losing weight is not a job, it’s not even a suitable hobbie. You can’t suspend your life while doing it.

Response:

It seems we get into very intricate details about weight loss here. The curious thing is that people overeat for years then split hairs over a gram of something or a ten calorie differntial. The name of the game IMO is a workable plan with a lifetime gurranty and one that does not specify a special amount of weigh to be lost weekly or by a certain date since the body doesn’t grind out fat loss as consistenly as we set exacting goals. — Diva ***** The Best Man For The Job Is A Woman

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It seems we get into very intricate details about weight loss here. The curious thing is that people overeat for years then split hairs over a gram of something or a ten calorie differntial. It’s probably because both dieting and overeating are the two sides of the same coin. Many people diet the way they overeat, in an obsessive fashion. They micro-manage their food intake, they spend hours in the gym, they plan their meals a week ahead… That’s the same kind of obsessive energy that allowed them to overeat. Actually, to some, dieting is just a form of controlled anorexia. I don’t mean the part about hurting your body through deprivation, that one is just a byproduct of the anorexia. Anorexia is about total control of your own body, just like compulsive esthetic surgery or compulsive body-building. I think that’s what some dieters are into. I suspect some actually like things being difficult, challenging or painful (some people complain when a nutritionist gives them a diet that is not restrictive enough for instance), because it makes the whole process praiseworthy. Finding a middle ground is the tricky part, because it means becoming normal. Normal as in not exceptionnal, not worth of special attention or praise or anything, just plain old normal.   The name of the game IMO is a workable plan with a lifetime gurranty   and one that does not specify a special amount of weigh to be lost   weekly or by a certain date since the body doesn’t grind out fat loss   as consistenly as we set exacting goals. In order to be able to follow that kind of plan, you need enough self acceptance to be comfortable with whatever weight you are in during the process. If you manage to feel at peace with yourself, stalls, slow downs or even bumps are not a problem anymore : you just enjoy whatever point you are at. But many people just obsess about a "goal", even to the point of forgetting to live until they reach it. I have often read people saying they won’t buy clothes (or only some that are too tight), try to find a spouse, a new job or whatever until they have "reached their goals". It’s like they stop living until they are done with the weight loss. Losing weight is not a job, it’s not even a suitable hobbie. You can’t suspend your life while doing it.

Lictor this is a great post and should be re-posted every month and saved in one’s personal archives or pasted on the fridge or entered on a Fitday journal page leaving the remaining pages blank:-) Carol

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Lictor, you kind of ‘hit a nerve’ when you spoke about becoming comfortable WHERE WE ARE NOW AT during weight loss . I really believe this is the KEY in WOL/WOE and I have recently been ’seeing’ this for me(TRYING TO ANYWAYS) and I went shopping for new jeans although I DIDN’T deserve them! I mean I needed the size BIGGER than I WANTED to be getting. After I got my new jeans I looked in the mirror and I FELT GOOD! I needed to begin to find more peace with myself DURING my weight-loss. I’m still working at getting smaller but I’m making friends with ME during the process. You wrote a very good post. glo

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Lictor, you kind of ‘hit a nerve’ when you spoke about becoming comfortable WHERE WE ARE NOW AT during weight loss . I really believe this is the KEY in WOL/WOE and I have recently been ’seeing’ this for me(TRYING TO ANYWAYS) and I went shopping for new jeans although I DIDN’T deserve them! I mean I needed the size BIGGER than I WANTED to be getting. After I got my new jeans I looked in the mirror and I FELT GOOD! I needed to begin to find more peace with myself DURING my weight-loss. I’m still working at getting smaller but I’m making friends with ME during the process. You wrote a very good post. glo

I agree with you here, glo, and this was the bit of Lictor’s post that stood out for me too.  I’ve never been able to learn to handle this asapect of weight loss, and it’s one of the reasons I find intensive journalling, measuring, etc. when I’m trying to lose can have a negative effect. I think we need the right balance between learning to love our bodies at whatever size, in order to care enough to improve them and to be able to live in the present, but at the same time not giving up on wanting to lose the excess fat.  It’s not an easy balance for me, I know. janice                        

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It seems we get into very intricate details about weight loss here. The curious thing is that people overeat for years then split hairs over a gram of something or a ten calorie differntial. If you look at their weight gain patten over "those years", they overeat by a very small amount though…

That’s an excellent point!  Most folks put on one or two extra pounds per year after adolescence.  That rate of weight gain is caused by an average daily surplus of only 10 to 20 calories per day! So, if you "overeat" only one teaspoon of sugar per day (15 calories), you can easily find yourself  15-20 lbs heavier when your 10 year high school reunion comes around. GG – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The name of the game IMO is a workable plan with a lifetime gurranty and one that does not specify a special amount of weigh to be lost weekly or by a certain date since the body doesn’t grind out fat loss as consistenly as we set exacting goals. "Lifetime" sounds pretty intimidating to me personally. i

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It seems we get into very intricate details about weight loss here. The curious thing is that people overeat for years then split hairs over a gram of something or a ten calorie differntial. If you look at their weight gain patten over "those years", they overeat by a very small amount though… The name of the game IMO is a workable plan with a lifetime gurranty and one that does not specify a special amount of weigh to be lost weekly or by a certain date since the body doesn’t grind out fat loss as consistenly as we set exacting goals. "Lifetime" sounds pretty intimidating to me personally.

I’m now in my mid seventies. Obesity manifested itself when I was eight. It’s been a life dominated by weight and diet obsession–until the year 2000 when I adapted your suggested approach. It was not entirely by choice but it works and would that I had done it in 1939 my life may or may not have been more sucessful, but I’ll wager it would have been different. — Diva Completing 4 years of maintenance

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Carol AND GG & i , you REALLY HIT it here!! Janice too(of course:) as I THINK it was almost my mirror as I read these posts! JANICE ISSSS MY MIRROR almost ALL the time here!! So I have REALLy looked at myself THANKS to GG,i, CAROL, Lictor& Janice!! I’m reading these posts whle saying It’s me, it’s me! WOW! I NEEDED these posts TODAy & I’m THINKING HARD now! Thanks guys!! glo

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It seems we get into very intricate details about weight loss here. The curious thing is that people overeat for years then split hairs over a gram of something or a ten calorie differntial. If you look at their weight gain patten over "those years", they overeat by a very small amount though… The name of the game IMO is a workable plan with a lifetime gurranty and one that does not specify a special amount of weigh to be lost weekly or by a certain date since the body doesn’t grind out fat loss as consistenly as we set exacting goals. "Lifetime" sounds pretty intimidating to me personally. I’m now in my mid seventies. Obesity manifested itself when I was eight. It’s been a life dominated by weight and diet obsession–until the year 2000 when I adapted your suggested approach. It was not entirely by choice but it works and would that I had done it in 1939 my life may or may not have been more sucessful, but I’ll wager it would have been different. It’s interesting that in the year when you adopted my suggested approach (do you mean your current diet, which you described here), I was eating cakes and candies…

I believe she adopted it long before you suggested it, but hey, keep trying to take credit for others’ success.  It’s not the first time for you.  You seem to like taking what people say they’re doing and suggesting they do it as if it were your idea. I know that my life would have been different, at least somewhat, if I had my epiphany at 24-25, and not at 32… When I said that "lifetime" sounds intimidating, I meant that life is so long and unpredictable, that I cannot make any lfietime sort of commitments about what to eat forever etc. I greatly hope that I can eat the way I do, forever, without suffering any adverse health consequences…

Interesting.  I’ve made a lifelong commitment to taking care of myself and making sure I eat in a healthy way and do whatever exercise I’m capable of doing for the rest of my lifetime.  It isn’t intimidating in the least if you have truly internalized that it’s the way life is rather than paying lip service while secretly hoping that a miracle will occur to allow you to return to eating crap and not exercising regularly. Jenn

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That’s an excellent point!  Most folks put on one or two extra pounds per year after adolescence.  That rate of weight gain is caused by an average daily surplus of only 10 to 20 calories per day! So, if you "overeat" only one teaspoon of sugar per day (15 calories), you can easily find yourself  15-20 lbs heavier when your 10 year high school reunion comes around.

This indeed shows that the regulation mechanism is indeed high precision. However, this does not look at the big picture. Our body does not micro-manage our food intakes. Regular slim people do overeat from time to time, and then eat less at the following meals. Very few biological processes actually have a target of ‘x’, and regulate around that value with a very high precision. Moreover, many biological processes are multi-step : short term poor precision regulation is compounded with high precision long term regulation. Most biological processes oscillate all the time. Most hormonal processes involve two hormones : one active and one antagonist. Both are usually release at once, but in different amounts. Then, the hormonal system regulates the *relative* amounts. For instance, the hormonal system (when it works properly) does not decide it must release x mg of insulin, with a precision bellow 0.1%. It just shoot an amout of insulin that usually does the job (from what happened during previous meals and what the brain thinks the meal carries) *and* shoots some glucagon to oppose the insulin. Then, it enters a feedback loop to balance the two hormones (and a bunch of others). It’s the same with caloric intake. The body does not regulate down to the single calorie at every meal. It just aims for a rough constant. It does not even to that on a per meal basis, but rather over the day. For instance, studies on well regulated kids (not overweight or dieting) have shown that they keep their daily caloric intake within 15% of a constant. However, many have completely chaotic patterns on a per meal basis – some days, their breakfast might give them 30% of their total, but only 10% or even 0% on the next (when you don’t force them to have breakfast). But 15% is pretty poor precision (even if it’s much better than the score of poorly regulated kids). However, the body adjusts for caloric intakes long term too. That’s what the "equation" is not showing. Well regulated people will automatically balance the direction of the error. If they start gaining weight (like a couple extra pounds), they eat less and the error spreads to the other side of the fence. If they start losing too much, they feel hungrier and move the error the other way. Actually, they’re yo-yo dieting all the time, except they’re doing that within a couple of pounds of their target weight, rather than a hundred. ;) It this kind of mechanism, you can afford the relative lack of precision of the short term regulation system, since its goal is only to make it manageable for the medium term regulation system. Bio-feedback does not work on trying to maintain very tightly a set value, the system would oscillate awfully otherwise. It just aims losely for the target, and then does ample medium term oscillations. It’s a dynamic equilibrium, not a static one. It’s like walking, it works because you’re falling all the time, but never in the same direction long enough to actually hit the floor. ;)

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m now in my mid seventies. Obesity manifested itself when I was eight. It’s been a life dominated by weight and diet obsession–until the year 2000 when I adapted your suggested approach. It was not entirely by choice but it works and would that I had done it in 1939 my life may or may not have been more sucessful, but I’ll wager it would have been different. It’s interesting that in the year when you adopted my suggested approach (do you mean your current diet, which you described here), I was eating cakes and candies… I believe she adopted it long before you suggested it, but hey, keep trying to take credit for others’ success.  It’s not the first time for you.  You seem to like taking what people say they’re doing and suggesting they do it as if it were your idea.

Did he actually say "when you adopted my suggested approach"? Yes, he did. My god, what a crock of garbage! As if Carol followed ignorant. Now THAT was funny! Carol was here already following her healthier WOE when I started reading asd and waaaaaaaay before ignorant was ever here. In fact, asd was a lot more fun in those days…I wonder why. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know that my life would have been different, at least somewhat, if I had my epiphany at 24-25, and not at 32… When I said that "lifetime" sounds intimidating, I meant that life is so long and unpredictable, that I cannot make any lfietime sort of commitments about what to eat forever etc. I greatly hope that I can eat the way I do, forever, without suffering any adverse health consequences… Interesting.  I’ve made a lifelong commitment to taking care of myself and making sure I eat in a healthy way and do whatever exercise I’m capable of doing for the rest of my lifetime.  It isn’t intimidating in the least if you have truly internalized that it’s the way life is rather than paying lip service while secretly hoping that a miracle will occur to allow you to return to eating crap and not exercising regularly.

This is interesting. My committment is also lifelong. It makes life easier to live day to day, actually, for if I stumble, it’s not the End of the World. I simply know that if I stumble, I’ll get back up, brush myself off and continue. I don’t freak out if I gain a couple of pounds, I certainly don’t post it in a newsgroup if I gain two pounds after a race, lol! I believe it would indeed make you-know-who much more rugged if he actually acted like a man, instead of a Drama Queen. — Martha 182.5/164/140 www.bastmagazine.com

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I know that my life would have been different, at least somewhat, if I had my epiphany at 24-25, and not at 32…

This intrigues me, ig.  Can you say in what way your life would have been different?  After all, you’re only talking of a period of around 8 years, which doesn’t seem very much to me although I agree they are fairly crucial years in terms of age.   janice

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Carol AND GG & i , you REALLY HIT it here!! Janice too(of course:) as I THINK it was almost my mirror as I read these posts! JANICE ISSSS MY MIRROR almost ALL the time here!! So I have REALLy looked at myself THANKS to GG,i, CAROL, Lictor& Janice!! I’m reading these posts whle saying It’s me, it’s me! WOW! I NEEDED these posts TODAy & I’m THINKING HARD now!

Wow, glo, I’m not sure I  can handle this responsibility:)) janice

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Janice hehehehe:):):)

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<snip But many people just obsess about a "goal", even to the point of forgetting to live until they reach it. I have often read people saying they won’t buy clothes (or only some that are too tight), try to find a spouse, a new job or whatever until they have "reached their goals". It’s like they stop living until they are done with the weight loss. Losing weight is not a job, it’s not even a suitable hobbie. You can’t suspend your life while doing it.

While this is a very good point, there can be a valid reason for not getting clothes — they’re expensive! I’m still wearing the same ol’ stuff that’s gone from snug to loose, but I can’t bear the expense of new things yet — I’ll have to wait until I get under 200 pounds… —     J.J. in WA * 275/232     Mini Goal 195 by May 31, 2005

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<snip I simply know that if I stumble, I’ll get back up, brush myself off and continue. I don’t freak out if I gain a couple of pounds,

YES! This is a key thing for me. Before I started reading ASD, I would beat myself senseless, emotionally, for *any* weight gain or stall. This often lead to giving up on weight loss completely. Now, like Martha, I keep plugging away; some weeks I do better than others, and that’s okay as long as I keep on going. I thank the folks in this group for helping me adopt a healthier mental attitude about losing weight… —     J.J. in WA * 275/232     Mini Goal 195 by May 31, 2005

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip But many people just obsess about a "goal", even to the point of forgetting to live until they reach it. I have often read people saying they won’t buy clothes (or only some that are too tight), try to find a spouse, a new job or whatever until they have "reached their goals". It’s like they stop living until they are done with the weight loss. Losing weight is not a job, it’s not even a suitable hobbie. You can’t suspend your life while doing it. While this is a very good point, there can be a valid reason for not getting clothes — they’re expensive! I’m still wearing the same ol’ stuff that’s gone from snug to loose, but I can’t bear the expense of new things yet — I’ll have to wait until I get under 200 pounds…

J.J., find a cheap used clothing store.  Honestly, you’re not going to be able to go naked in between!  I’ve been buying clothes as Salvation Army, a local Survival Center and even the dreaded Wal*Mart. I get one pair of jeans, one suit for meeting with bankers, a couple of different turtlenecks or t-shirts and about two nice work outfits.  I also buy all the workout clothes I need – I know my priorities!  I feel pretty self-conscious about my lack of work clothes when my receptionist is on duty because she’s the only one who knows that I wear the same things over and over again!  It’s also a bit embarrassing at church… I’ve got maybe three outfits I can wear.  But on the other hand I outshrink my clothes each season so I *do* have variety, just in six month intervals! Now I’ve got another problem: I *do* have access to a bunch of clothes.   I’ve shrunk down to the clothes that I had before I was married back when I had money to buy nice clothes.  The only problem is that they look ridiculous now!  Super wide belts, padded shoulders on everything… I’ve got some nice linens and silks that I can use with adaptation, but the other problem is that the clothes I had in my early twenties looks so YOUNG on me now!  (Did I really wear pink floral prints?!?)  I look like something from "Sixteen Candles" in most of the outfits.  :-) Dally

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Dally, I’m wondering if you tried to take the shoulder pads out? I worked in a ladie’s BETTER CLOTHES store for MANY years and there are good TRICKS to making things work. Lilke the tea shirts under the suit ETC  but I THINK you already mentioned this?  MANY styles are back too! Did you ever find a consignment store near you? This is indeed a great way to EXCHANGE clothes. Thrift stores are good too but I wentinto JC Penney’s today to find CHEAP tagged skirts and much other fall clothes . I saw things for only 2&3 $ . Just some ideas:) glo

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It seems we get into very intricate details about weight loss here. The curious thing is that people overeat for years then split hairs over a gram of something or a ten calorie differntial. The name of the game IMO is a workable plan with a lifetime gurranty and one that does not specify a special amount of weigh to be lost weekly or by a certain date since the body doesn’t grind out fat loss as consistenly as we set exacting goals.

I’m glad to see you have finally come to this realization, as you were one of those micromanaging every gram and ounce of food you ate for many years and we on ASD were subject to your posts about nuts and honey and whatnots. But somehow you learned to change and instead of criticzing others for doing what you did, why not offer some advice on how you got past that.

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It seems we get into very intricate details about weight loss here. The curious thing is that people overeat for years then split hairs over a gram of something or a ten calorie differntial.

My speculation: As folks gain, they do it without any specific thought, any plan or any learning about what they are doing. When folks diet, they do it with a specific thought, with a plan and they hope to learn what they were doing wrong and what right is. The name of the game IMO is a workable plan with a lifetime gurranty and one that does not specify a special amount of weigh to be lost weekly or by a certain date since the body doesn’t grind out fat loss as consistenly as we set exacting goals.

My speculation: To the extend that most folks follow exact plans down to the detail, they are acting out their plan well but not learning particularly well.  Learning takes experimentation and thought. The goals need to be: 1) Follow your plan well enough to acheive the loss (whichever plan you end up picking). 2) Experiment around enough that you can come up with unlimited variations or the food your plan suggests, NOT just following a set menu.  Following a set menu doesn’t plan for later. 3) Learn what foods are right and wrong.  There are some universals like donuts and french fries being bad and broccoli being good. Experiment and customize the lessons for yourself. 4) Stay with your plan long enough that you *can* have a yearly point of view on it. Looking at the support postings on ASD, all 4 o these goals are commonly expressed, but rarely listed as such.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It seems we get into very intricate details about weight loss here. The curious thing is that people overeat for years then split hairs over a gram of something or a ten calorie differntial. The name of the game IMO is a workable plan with a lifetime gurranty and one that does not specify a special amount of weigh to be lost weekly or by a certain date since the body doesn’t grind out fat loss as consistenly as we set exacting goals. I’m glad to see you have finally come to this realization, as you were one of those micromanaging every gram and ounce of food you ate for many years and we on ASD were subject to your posts about nuts and honey and whatnots. But somehow you learned to change and instead of criticzing others for doing what you did, why not offer some advice on how you got past that.

Possibly because I detect an unpleasant undertone in this post as has frequently happened in the past. Since I am unable to digest disaccharide carbohydrates and can’t use sugar or grain, I still use plenty of honey and nuts and since they are calorie dense I have to be watchful if that gets excessive. I don’t know if this is what you are looking for. Saying, "It seems we do this and that" etc. is an observation, not a criticism. People are welcome to do whatever they wish and were not put in this world to gain my approval. — Diva ****** There is no substitute for the right food

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Losing weight is not a job, it’s not even a suitable hobbie. You can’t suspend your life while doing it.

I found losing weight to be a perfectly pleasant hobby and if you ask my best friend, she’d tell you I did it like it *was* a job.  I didn’t suspend my life to lose weight – I added it to my life.  I sort of miss it. Maintenance itself is almost boring – I know how to eat properly now and how much exercise I need.  But being thin, healthy, active and looking good is a LOT of fun. — On the bike . . . Laurie in Maine 207/110  60 inches of attitude! Start: 2/02  Maintained since 2/03

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Maintenance itself is almost boring – I know how to eat properly now and how much exercise I need.  But being thin, healthy, active and looking good is a LOT of fun.

I find maintenance more joyous and boring. i will be giving a cooking course starting january for my SCD Diet and it is very pleasant to create and enjoy tasty foods without guilt but including gentle watchfulness in the backround.  It’s about time food is no longer an enemy. — Diva ****** There is no substitute for the right food

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I find maintenance more joyous and boring. i will be giving a cooking course starting january for my SCD Diet and it is very pleasant to create and enjoy tasty foods without guilt but including gentle watchfulness in the backround.  It’s about time food is no longer an enemy.

You’re right.  Food is not the enemy – gluttony is.   "We have found the enemy and he is us" – Pogo — On the bike . . . Laurie in Maine 207/110  60 inches of attitude! Start: 2/02  Maintained since 2/03

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