Act Acting » Acting Lessons » post-solo logging with rated pilot
post-solo logging with rated pilot
Question:
No, it’s legal, but you can’t log it. The PIC doesn’t have to be in the left seat (as a matter of fact, traffic pilots fly right and the reporter sits left). The PIC doesn’t have to fly the plane (just be responsible for it). I could let my kids fly a whole x-country (perfectly legal, but not loggable for anyone). Margy
This is surprising. How is this possible ? Common sense tells me that if a flight took place, then someone ought to be able to log it. How can you ask a pilot to assume full responsibility for a flight, and yet not allow him to log it ? — Andrew Sarangan CP-ASEL-IA http://lights.chtm.unm.edu/~sarangan/aviation
Response:
Most aviation lawyers and the FAA would have a dim view of you claiming to be the "sole manipulator of controls" if somebody else is manipulating the controls, skilled, rated, or not.
And they would have an even dimmer view of you letting someone who is not rated in that aircraft manipulating the controls. So it is the don’t ask don’t tell thing. If he claims he flew none of the time, and that the Non-Rated individual flew the aircraft, he is then in more trouble, after all how are they going to prove he was not the Sole Man. of the Controls? Legally he has to be, now Morally and Ethically he can not, but then Morally and ethically he should not have let the other person control the A/C. So he would have 2 reasons to get his license suspended instead of just one, that is if he ever got caught. Chris
Response:
The Private Pilot was the PIC, and the Sole Manipulator of the Controls. I know what you are saying, but if anyone asks, he has to say, he was the sole manipulator of the controls. Unless you know of a FAR that says a PAX can legal manipulate the controls of an Aircraft of which he is not rated.
The FAR do not prohibit a non-pilot from manipulating the controls. All it says is that you have to be a pilot to act as PIC or be a required crewmember. Why is this need for misrepresentation ? If an FAA guy asks, why not tell the truth ? He can’t bust you if you haven’t done anything wrong. Even if the passenger crashes the airplane while trying to land, it makes no difference. You were the PIC, so you have to assume total responsibility. This is what is surprising to me. The pilot has to assume responsibility for all outcome, yet he can’t log that flight. Very strange. — Andrew Sarangan CP-ASEL-IA http://lights.chtm.unm.edu/~sarangan/aviation
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well then technically the flight is illegal and both would lose their privileges. The certified pilot IS the Pilot in Command. If anything happens to that aircraft He/She is responsible, they are the Pilot in COMMAND of the aircraft. As far as the FAA would be concerned, the student (or any PAX) should not touch the controls. Of course people may do it all the time, but that does not make it legal. The private pilot in this situation would log the time, the student would log nothing, he is only a PAX. So when you take your beloved family member up for a ride and you let them fly the plane will you log that time? Of course you will. Will you tell the FAA guy at the airport what you did? Probably not, but then why would he ask. Unless you let your PAX try to land and they nosed the prop into the runway, but then who’s fault is it and what are you going to tell the FAA guy then? And that incident that would have been a just a report now involves you losing that piece of paper you spent so much time and money on. Oh then the owner of the A/C and their insurance! The Private Pilot was the PIC, and the Sole Manipulator of the Controls. I know what you are saying, but if anyone asks, he has to say, he was the sole manipulator of the controls. Unless you know of a FAR that says a PAX can legal manipulate the controls of an Aircraft of which he is not rated.
Chris, from what I have learned about aviation so far, I have to agree with you completely. You ask if you know of a FAR that says a PAX can legally manipulate the controls… I don’t know of any. But do you know of any FAR that says that a PAX CAN’T manipulate the controls? I looked for one, but couldn’t find a FAR that ruled one way or the other. Mystral
Response:
[... non-rated pax/student "manipultates" controls but acting PIC can't log any of that flight time...] [...] The PIC doesn’t have to fly the plane (just be responsible for it). I could let my kids fly a whole x-country (perfectly legal, but not loggable for anyone). This is surprising. How is this possible ? Common sense tells me that if a flight took place, then someone ought to be able to log it. How can you ask a pilot to assume full responsibility for a flight, and yet not allow him to log it ?
Suprising? Perhaps. Curious? To me, most definitely! 
Extending this a little, does that mean a "pilot" cannot log the time that s/he is not manipulating the controls when the autopilot is doing the flying? Or does monitoring the autopilot constitute "manipulating" of a control (the autopilot)? Is it because a pax is not a "control" that monitoring him/her is not considered "manipulation", although the PIC is responsible for the operation of the flight? I would think the spirit of the FARs would allow the PIC to log the time, but strict interpretation seems to prevent it. Barney
Response:
Why doesn’t someone start rec.aviation.logging!!! J. Neteler – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Cant log PIC since a student cant take passengers (and is not rated), and cant log solo since there is someone else in the airplane, so the student cant log squat. This is a nit, but a student can log solo time if it’s in an airship that requires more than one crewmember. I’m guessing that’s not the case here. If it was, then it would have to be in the area endorsed for solo, otherwise, you’re not "soloing." In this example the right-seat Private pilot is obviously acting as PIC. However, this brings up an interesting issue: assuming that this is not a aircraft requiring two crewmembers, it appears that the Private pilot cannot log the time as PIC, either — he/she is not the sole manipulator of the controls, nor is he/she alone in the aircraft (obviously). (Forgive me for continuing to beat this dead horse…) – David Scott N20870 Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.
Response:
I disagree — right seat is ACTING as PIC, but can’t log it due to the fact that he/she is not the sole manipulator of the controls and two pilots are not required for this operation.
Are you saying that you actually DEDUCT the time your wife, kid, brother, friend, etc might be manipulating the controls? That’s silly! The student is NOT a pilot … yet. The right seat is definitely PIC … you can’t leave home without one … g! Dennis PP-ASEL (4B8) "I still know just enough to know that I don’t know enough"
Response:
Student logs NOTHING, the right seat pilot logs PIC. Refer to student pilots operations and the carrying of passengers. If the right seater isn’t PIC, then he’s a passenger, and that’s not allowed.
If he isn’t the sole manipulator of the controls, he can’t log anything either.
Response:
At http://www.beapilot.com I found the following information: "Student pilots cannot carry passengers when flying solo. Friends or family may ride along on dual lessons (when your instructor is in the plane) however, and it’s a good idea to discuss this with your CFI in advance." I haven’t looked this up in the FARs to see If this is true, but if it is, the scenario questioned below is illegal. Mystral – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Scenario : A post-solo student in the left seat with a non-CFI, appropriately rated private pilot in the right seat. Student does all the flying. Who can log what? Does it matter if the flight occurs outside of the area the the student was endorsed to solo in? — | Home: | Office: | | 7928 Westbury Ave. | Southwest Fisheries Science Center | | San Diego, CA 92126 | P.O. Box 271 | | 858-695-3552 | La Jolla, CA 92038 | | | 858-546-7072, 7003 (FAX) | | "Marine Biologist?!…I didn’t even know that WAS a job!" | | – George Costanza | | | | "Get off the cross, we need the wood." | | – Tori Amos |
Response:
<html <appoligies for html Are you saying that you actually DEDUCT the time your wife, kid, brother, friend, etc might be manipulating the controls?
With respect to maniuplating the controls, again, check a current copy of the FAR’s. In order to log PIC time, you must be rated in the airplane and the <b<i sole manipulator of controls. </i</b Most aviation lawyers and the FAA would have a dim view of you claiming to be the "sole manipulator of controls" if somebody else is manipulating the controls, skilled, rated, or not. </html </appologies
Response:
I disagree — right seat is ACTING as PIC, but can’t log it due to the fact that he/she is not the sole manipulator of the controls and two pilots are not required for this operation. Are you saying that you actually DEDUCT the time your wife, kid, brother, friend, etc might be manipulating the controls? That’s silly! The student is NOT a pilot … yet. The right seat is definitely PIC … you can’t leave home without one … g!
That may be silly but it is exactly what the F.A. Regulations explicitly say. Bottom line: If you (a rated private pilot or better, save cfi) go flying with a student pilot who is flying the plane, You are the ACTING PIC, but NEITHER of you may LOG PIC. Check with your FAR’s or your local FSDO if you don’t understand this.
Response:
FAR Sec. 61.89 General limitations. (a) A student pilot may not act as pilot in command of an aircraft: (1) That is carrying a passenger; I was unable to locate anything in the FARs that refers to what a non-CFI Private Pilot is allowed to let his or her passenger do (e.g. takeoffs and landings and everything in between). Can anyone show where in the FARs is says whether or not it is legal for a Private Pilot to let someone else control the aircraft? Mystral – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – At http://www.beapilot.com I found the following information: "Student pilots cannot carry passengers when flying solo. Friends or family may ride along on dual lessons (when your instructor is in the plane) however, and it’s a good idea to discuss this with your CFI in advance." I haven’t looked this up in the FARs to see If this is true, but if it is, the scenario questioned below is illegal. Mystral Scenario : A post-solo student in the left seat with a non-CFI, appropriately rated private pilot in the right seat. Student does all the flying. Who can log what? Does it matter if the flight occurs outside of the area the the student was endorsed to solo in? — | Home: | Office: | | 7928 Westbury Ave. | Southwest Fisheries Science Center | | San Diego, CA 92126 | P.O. Box 271 | | 858-695-3552 | La Jolla, CA 92038 | | | 858-546-7072, 7003 (FAX) | | "Marine Biologist?!…I didn’t even know that WAS a job!" | | – George Costanza | | | | "Get off the cross, we need the wood." | | – Tori Amos |
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – At http://www.beapilot.com I found the following information: "Student pilots cannot carry passengers when flying solo. Friends or family may ride along on dual lessons (when your instructor is in the plane) however, and it’s a good idea to discuss this with your CFI in advance." I haven’t looked this up in the FARs to see If this is true, but if it is, the scenario questioned below is illegal. Mystral Scenario : A post-solo student in the left seat with a non-CFI, appropriately rated private pilot in the right seat. Student does all the flying. Who can log what? Does it matter if the flight occurs outside of the area the the student was endorsed to solo in?
BOTH scenarios are completely legal. If a CFI is giving a lesson to a student, she is the PIC and she may have passengers (one of which is the student). The student may log dual received, but NOT PIC. In this scenario it doesn’t matter if the student has soloed or even has a student certificate. The student certificate privileges only apply when there are not passengers in the plane (+ everything else such as type endorsement) In the second scenario, the private pilot pilot is the ACTING PIC. He may not log the time in which he is not the "sole manipulator of controls." The student pilot may not log time because there is a passenger in the plane, which disqualifies him for being rated in the plane. Hence, in this scenario, NOBODY LOGS PIC time. If a CFI gives instruction to a private pilot, current BFR, rated in the airplane, then BOTH pilots may LOG PIC. Private gets PIC + DUAL Received, CFI gets PIC + DUAL given.
Response:
At http://www.beapilot.com I found the following information: "Student pilots cannot carry passengers when flying solo. Friends or family may ride along on dual lessons (when your instructor is in the plane) however, and it’s a good idea to discuss this with your CFI in advance." I haven’t looked this up in the FARs to see If this is true, but if it is, the scenario questioned below is illegal.
No, it’s legal, but you can’t log it. The PIC doesn’t have to be in the left seat (as a matter of fact, traffic pilots fly right and the reporter sits left). The PIC doesn’t have to fly the plane (just be responsible for it). I could let my kids fly a whole x-country (perfectly legal, but not loggable for anyone). Margy
Response:
Well then technically the flight is illegal and both would lose their privileges. The certified pilot IS the Pilot in Command. If anything happens to that aircraft He/She is responsible, they are the Pilot in COMMAND of the aircraft. As far as the FAA would be concerned, the student (or any PAX) should not touch the controls. Of course people may do it all the time, but that does not make it legal. The private pilot in this situation would log the time, the student would log nothing, he is only a PAX. So when you take your beloved family member up for a ride and you let them fly the plane will you log that time? Of course you will. Will you tell the FAA guy at the airport what you did? Probably not, but then why would he ask. Unless you let your PAX try to land and they nosed the prop into the runway, but then who’s fault is it and what are you going to tell the FAA guy then? And that incident that would have been a just a report now involves you losing that piece of paper you spent so much time and money on. Oh then the owner of the A/C and their insurance! The Private Pilot was the PIC, and the Sole Manipulator of the Controls. I know what you are saying, but if anyone asks, he has to say, he was the sole manipulator of the controls. Unless you know of a FAR that says a PAX can legal manipulate the controls of an Aircraft of which he is not rated. Chris
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Student logs NOTHING, the right seat pilot logs PIC. Refer to student pilots operations and the carrying of passengers. If the right seater isn’t PIC, then he’s a passenger, and that’s not allowed. If he isn’t the sole manipulator of the controls, he can’t log anything either.
Response:
Scenario : A post-solo student in the left seat with a non-CFI, appropriately rated private pilot in the right seat. Student does all the flying. Who can log what? Does it matter if the flight occurs outside of the area the the student was endorsed to solo in?
Student logs NOTHING, the right seat pilot logs PIC. Refer to student pilots operations and the carrying of passengers. If the right seater isn’t PIC, then he’s a passenger, and that’s not allowed. The only special exception is a designated examiner during the checkride. Dennis (4B8) PP-ASEL
Response:
Scenario : A post-solo student in the left seat with a non-CFI, appropriately rated private pilot in the right seat. Student does all the flying. Who can log what? Does it matter if the flight occurs outside of the area the the student was endorsed to solo in? Student logs NOTHING, the right seat pilot logs PIC. Refer to student pilots operations and the carrying of passengers. If the right seater isn’t PIC, then he’s a passenger, and that’s not allowed. The only special exception is a designated examiner during the checkride.
I disagree — right seat is ACTING as PIC, but can’t log it due to the fact that he/she is not the sole manipulator of the controls and two pilots are not required for this operation. – David Scott N20870 Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.
Response:
If this is the case, and there is an accident or incident, the PIC takes responsibility. If neither can log PIC, who IS the PIC?
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Scenario : A post-solo student in the left seat with a non-CFI, appropriately rated private pilot in the right seat. Student does all the flying. Who can log what? Does it matter if the flight occurs outside of the area the the student was endorsed to solo in? Neither pilot can log anything. The student can’t log PIC time because he’s not solo (nor can he legally be PIC). The private pilot can not log PIC time because he was not the sole manipulator of the controls (though he legally can be pilot in command in this scenario). No other logging options are open as there is no instruction or legitimate multipilot operation happening here.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Cant log PIC since a student cant take passengers (and is not rated), and cant log solo since there is someone else in the airplane, so the student cant log squat. This is a nit, but a student can log solo time if it’s in an airship that requires more than one crewmember. I’m guessing that’s not the case here. If it was, then it would have to be in the area endorsed for solo, otherwise, you’re not "soloing." In this example the right-seat Private pilot is obviously acting as PIC. However, this brings up an interesting issue: assuming that this is not a aircraft requiring two crewmembers, it appears that the Private pilot cannot log the time as PIC, either — he/she is not the sole manipulator of the controls, nor is he/she alone in the aircraft (obviously). (Forgive me for continuing to beat this dead horse…)
I gotta say that the passenger, a licensed pilot, *is* PIC. The student is ONLY licensed to solo the plane, and that only at his own airfield and any others for which he has a specific endorsement (like the ones he may have visited or be authorised to visit on solo XC). Because the student is NOT licensed to fly with any passengers (instructor is not a "passenger"), he is not legally flying the plane. Since we can all agree that a plane in the air really ought to have a pilot, there’s only one choice: the licensed pilot. In this case, at least accoding to the FARs as I read ‘em (and the gubmint as I know it), what we have here is a non-CFI pilot (right seat) allowing a (technically) non-pilot to manipulate the controls from the left seat. While it may not be legal, I haven’t yet met the private pilot who hasn’t let pax fly the plane (at least straight and level at a few thousand feet). The licensed pilot logs time as PIC and the student doesn’t log squat. Unless he wants to talk with the nice men in the cheap suits. Cheers- m w "on my way to -A*M*EL" grossmann
Response:
Scenario : A post-solo student in the left seat with a non-CFI, appropriately rated private pilot in the right seat. Student does all the flying. Who can log what? Does it matter if the flight occurs outside of the area the the student was endorsed to solo in? — | Home: | Office: | | 7928 Westbury Ave. | Southwest Fisheries Science Center | | San Diego, CA 92126 | P.O. Box 271 | | 858-695-3552 | La Jolla, CA 92038 | | | 858-546-7072, 7003 (FAX) | | "Marine Biologist?!…I didn’t even know that WAS a job!" | | – George Costanza | | | | "Get off the cross, we need the wood." | | – Tori Amos |
Response:
Cant log PIC since a student cant take passengers (and is not rated), and cant log solo since there is someone else in the airplane, so the student cant log squat. gooch
Response:
Cant log PIC since a student cant take passengers (and is not rated), and cant log solo since there is someone else in the airplane, so the student cant log squat.
While it’s true that the student can’t log anything in this situation, a student CAN log PIC if he is the sole occupant of the aircraft (i.e. on a solo.) JKG Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.
Response:
Scenario : A post-solo student in the left seat with a non-CFI, appropriately rated private pilot in the right seat. Student does all the flying. Who can log what? Does it matter if the flight occurs outside of the area the the student was endorsed to solo in?
There is a passnger on board and your endorsement forbids flying in that area. Hence you cannot act as PIC on that flight. Therefore you cannot log that as PIC either. The only time you may log PIC while not acting as PIC is when you are the sole manipulator of the controls and have at least a Private pilot certificate, or you are a CFI giving instruction. — Andrew Sarangan CP-ASEL-IA http://lights.chtm.unm.edu/~sarangan/aviation
Response:
Cant log PIC since a student cant take passengers (and is not rated), and cant log solo since there is someone else in the airplane, so the student cant log squat.
This is a nit, but a student can log solo time if it’s in an airship that requires more than one crewmember. I’m guessing that’s not the case here. If it was, then it would have to be in the area endorsed for solo, otherwise, you’re not "soloing." In this example the right-seat Private pilot is obviously acting as PIC. However, this brings up an interesting issue: assuming that this is not a aircraft requiring two crewmembers, it appears that the Private pilot cannot log the time as PIC, either — he/she is not the sole manipulator of the controls, nor is he/she alone in the aircraft (obviously). (Forgive me for continuing to beat this dead horse…) – David Scott N20870 Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.
Response:
Scenario : A post-solo student in the left seat with a non-CFI, appropriately rated private pilot in the right seat. Student does all the flying. Who can log what? Does it matter if the flight occurs outside of the area the the student was endorsed to solo in?
Neither pilot can log anything. The student can’t log PIC time because he’s not solo (nor can he legally be PIC). The private pilot can not log PIC time because he was not the sole manipulator of the controls (though he legally can be pilot in command in this scenario). No other logging options are open as there is no instruction or legitimate multipilot operation happening here.
Response:
Related Posts
- Got ripped off-question...
- This morning's question
- OT Got such a chuckle!
- Old unsolved issues
- Have the six points of Danials 70th week been full-filled?
- Hobbies for SPers?
- If it's not Made in America,then it's not American now is it?...
- a happening(s)
- Divorce is NOT the end!!
- Good therapy story too