Act Acting » Acting School » about striking out in anger (WAS Re: pat)

about striking out in anger (WAS Re: pat)

Question:

I just feel like an underachiever all the time, and that was the way that I was treated when I was young, nothing was good enough. I get tired of being mad all the time, I can feel my heartbeat in my face, and my adrenaline flows all the time. When I would discuss the feeling with my therapist, all I would get is questions about what I need to be doing when these thoughts were going through my head. I didn’t feel like I was getting any real help, and I wasn’t going to find the answers that I was looking for… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Jimmy!  This is Jack of Swords. I don’t know if this is the place to dig this stuff up, but here goes…I am an abuse survivor, and I think I have gotten past the point of being ashamed , but I still carry the anger. I went to counseling for 2 years, but I felt that it had hit a point that I wasn’t getting anywhere. I try to stay alone as much as possible, I don’t know why, but I’m open to any answers that someone might have…I hate staying this angry….Thanks for your time… Jimmy, I think this is a good place to discuss the issues around abuse and it’s aftereffects.  It’s up to you whether you choose to trust people here, and whether you think that writing here will help you, but it’s helped me. For what it’s worth, the problems you’re describing aren’t at all uncommon.  You’re not unusual in feeling that way. Swords Take PROTECT out of the address for replies. Use anon-15262 at anon.twwells.com for anon email

Response:

post/cc email I just feel like an underachiever all the time, and that was the way that I was treated when I was young, nothing was good enough. I get tired of being mad all the time, I can feel my heartbeat in my face, and my adrenaline flows all the time. When I would discuss the feeling with my therapist, all I would get is questions about what I need to be doing when these thoughts were going through my head. I didn’t feel like I was getting any real help, and I wasn’t going to find the answers that I was looking for…

looks like your therapist was trying to help you find ways to deal with the symptoms, so you could start to feel better in today.  that works well for lots of people, so it’s usually the first thing a therapist tries. the therapist needed feedback that this approach wasn’t getting you anywhere–did you tell hir?  if you did, and the approach didn’t change, then that would mean that therapist wasn’t right for you and you needed to change therapists.  if you didn’t tell your therapist, then you didn’t give either yourself or your therapist a chance to get the needed work done.  therapists can’t read minds, and don’t know what you don’t tell them.             astri #AKA pink bunnies#                                                   `o’_*         cease to be amused     (:

Response:

Hi, astri! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – post/cc email I just feel like an underachiever all the time, and that was the way that I was treated when I was young, nothing was good enough. I get tired of being mad all the time, I can feel my heartbeat in my face, and my adrenaline flows all the time. When I would discuss the feeling with my therapist, all I would get is questions about what I need to be doing when these thoughts were going through my head. I didn’t feel like I was getting any real help, and I wasn’t going to find the answers that I was looking for… looks like your therapist was trying to help you find ways to deal with the symptoms, so you could start to feel better in today.  that works well for lots of people, so it’s usually the first thing a therapist tries. the therapist needed feedback that this approach wasn’t getting you anywhere–did you tell hir?  if you did, and the approach didn’t change, then that would mean that therapist wasn’t right for you and you needed to change therapists.  if you didn’t tell your therapist, then you didn’t give either yourself or your therapist a chance to get the needed work done.  therapists can’t read minds, and don’t know what you don’t tell them.

It took me the longest time to realize my position in therapy.  For years, I expected that the therapist was leading me, and sometimes they were.  It took me a while, but I finally realized that it was *my* job to lead the therapy to what I needed, not the therapists. Remember who’s paying the money, after all. Swords            astri #AKA pink bunnies#                                                  `o’_*        cease to be amused     (:

Take PROTECT out of the address for replies. Use anon-15262 at anon.twwells.com for anon email

Response:

Hi Jimmy, I just feel like an underachiever all the time, and that was the way that I was treated when I was young, nothing was good enough. I get tired of being mad all the time, I can feel my heartbeat in my face, and my adrenaline flows all the time. When I would discuss the feeling with my therapist, all I would get is questions about what I need to be doing when these thoughts were going through my head. I didn’t feel like I was getting any real help, and I wasn’t going to find the answers that I was looking for…

what kind of answers *were* you looking for?like.. to what questions? (this isn’t nearly so naive as it may sound at first glance)                      –Susan, wishing you peace..

Response:

Hello Carey, Sherri,Susan, Julia, hi (this is Julia …)

Hi Julia, c.d. here i really appreciate your thoughts and excellent analagies. It does help me understand in some ways. Read on for my comments and questions. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As I read what postings I did get, I kept thinking about how different people respond differently to abuse. For instance, although I was very emotionally abused (as well as in other ways), and that was the only modeling I had to go by, I have almost never "lashed out" in the way that my abusers did. Now I am wondering why this is. I believe, as I am thinking this through, that it is precisely because of the hurting I did from that abuse that I don’t do it to others. Because I know how it feels and I don’t want to hurt others the way I have been hurt. I felt exactly like that for a long time. Generally, that’s how I feel most of the time. I’m kind of fascinated in a morbid way by soldiers, and criminals and people who do things that are to me "unthinkable". Alot of times I wonder if I’m "too sensitive" for America (thinking of the David Bowie/Trent Resnor song "I’m afraid of Americans" because I relate). I can’t even sit through a Quentin Tarentino film without getting horribly upset.

So interesting that you mention this. I have for years been fascinated by the abborhent mind. In fact I have read some very interesting books on how the Nazi’s justified in their own minds doing the killing and torture of so many innocent people and then go home to their family and children as if they had come home from an average days work. Some of the theories on how this evolved are interesting. My husband says it is the Sociologist in me that wants to understand why people do such bad things. I do understand being afraid and lashing out though – BUT I will say again, I don’t think it’s a healthy thing to do and if someone lashes out at me my response is usually "Go calm down – I’m not your punching bag" (if – let’s all hope – I’ve not been too triggered). How can I explain lashing out … hmmm … it’s kind of like suddenly being catapulted to a strange and hidden feral state of mind. It’s like your consciousness suddenly swooshing backwards down a dark hallway for a moment and you’re suddenly a wild dog who’s had her puppies threatened. Image a mom wolf who comes back to her den and finds a young child poking at her puppies with a stick – the child doesn’t mean any harm – probably doesn’t know better – but the mom wolf runs on instinct to protect her babies, and that little boy is poking them and scaring them – so mom wolf mauls the little boy. And it’s sad … but mom wolf is not evil because of it.

I think this is a very good analagy, but there seems to be a difference in that the wolf is fearful for the LIVES of her little ones. I ,too, am a mother and am very protective of my children , so in that regard I can relate to what you are saying here. But, (Iam going out on a limb here expressing some of my political /religous beliefs) I don’t believe in the death penalty, so if my children were harmed I would want the perp captured and put away for life but not murdered. Now thank God this is a purely hypothetical situation and maybe if it really did happen I would want the perp killed. I hope I never have to challenge that. the point is , it is different when you are protecting some one else and different when it is a life threatening situation. My question is: when you feel that type of rage, regardless of the reason, does it FEEL life threatening and the moment of anger and that is why the reaction is so strong? Just wanting to understand. Luckily, as humans we (I assume all of us) have the capacity to grow beyond living life in a feral state. Some children (like me) are brought up (at least emotionally) like animals. I had nice clothes, a nice house, we had nice cars and pets and a vcr and computer before any of the other kids. But my dad would get mad and lash out – and sometimes it seemed like he would kill us. And mom would not protect him. The most she’d do is threaten me if she thought I might tell someone. So, I grew up in a house where you *fought* to stay alive. Literally. You think you might be hurt – you damned well do everything you can to avoid it or fight back. Because when your dad is beating and raping you – death is definitely an option.

I had a similar experience with my family. My father was very abusive in many ways including sexually abusive to me. I was terrified all of my growing up years and his words hurt so much so , almost worse than his actions. I used to sob at the dinner table nightly as he took turns berating each and everyone of us (5) as my mother sat there saying nothing. I, too many times thought of death and in fact tried it as a teenager, but no one got help for me. I was too scared to fight back.I just took it so he would go away as soon as possible. But the words hurt so much I have almost never been able to lash out in a deliberatly hurtful way.  So, my instincts were extremely well-tuned and I lived by them. I wake up to this day at the slightest noise. In emergencies my entire system shuts down and I become stronger/more alert/quicker until it’s over.

In an emergency I panic, blank out and can’t think straight. A big problem for me in my nursing career although I have always been able to call someone quickly who stays alert. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So, I’m 30 years old and I’ve been in therapy for almost ten years. I’ve gotten to the point where I don’t punch my boyfriends anymore just because they touched me in my sleep. I’ve worked really hard on anger management because I don’t like going into blind rages. I’ve learned that anger physically manifests (at least with me) in my body and when I get *really* angry it’s good for me to 1) leave the situation 2) do something physical to shake it out 3) make sure I’m breathing. I’ve been really successful in the last couple years at *not* losing my temper. I think the last time I really flipped out and lost my temper was in 1995 when my friend Mark (who weighs 100 lbs more than me and is a black belt in kuk sol) pushed my boundaries so hard I lost control and punched him. And I was really sorry for it. Luckily, I could never strike a person smaller than me no matter how blind of a rage I’m in. I don’t know why my mind has that control but my dad’s didn’t. So – I don’t approve of actions like that. I aspire to be any way *but* like that. But I’ve had to work SOOOO hard to not be like that. And the whole time I’ve known that rage is not productive and that I don’t want to hurt anyone. There’s a lot of different ways to hurt people other than just by yelling at them or hitting them. I guess that’s what I was trying to say

I am glad you have progressed . I think it curiously interesting Why in similar situations I would react one way and you another. Much to think  to Carey – that expressing your anger in a rage is really unhealthy. But expressing your anger in pretty words and shaming is equally unhealthy. Both are painful. But sometimes the pretty "peaceful" shaming words  are even worse because people can’t always feel like they have the right to be hurt. Because maybe they *did* deserve it, maybe they *should have known better*. Maybe all their best intentions and best efforts to be a good person were thwarted by someone who sees themself as to unable to ever make a mistake. So – I appreciate your ideas on anger and I believe we (as do I and Carey) share many of the same thoughts.

I think this is a very engaging and helpful discussion to help each of understand ourselves and others a bit better. I hope it continues. Not in a hurtful way, of course Thanks for responding, Any thoughts on my response? c.d. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Hi, Jimmy!  This is Jack of Swords. I don’t know if this is the place to dig this stuff up, but here goes…I am an abuse survivor, and I think I have gotten past the point of being ashamed , but I still carry the anger. I went to counseling for 2 years, but I felt that it had hit a point that I wasn’t getting anywhere. I try to stay alone as much as possible, I don’t know why, but I’m open to any answers that someone might have…I hate staying this angry….Thanks for your time…

Jimmy, I think this is a good place to discuss the issues around abuse and it’s aftereffects.  It’s up to you whether you choose to trust people here, and whether you think that writing here will help you, but it’s helped me. For what it’s worth, the problems you’re describing aren’t at all uncommon.  You’re not unusual in feeling that way. Swords Take PROTECT out of the address for replies. Use anon-15262 at anon.twwells.com for anon email

Response:

I don’t know if this is the place to dig this stuff up, but here goes…I am an abuse survivor, and I think I have gotten past the point of being ashamed , but I still carry the anger. I went to counseling for 2 years, but I felt that it had hit a point that I wasn’t getting anywhere. I try to stay alone as much as possible, I don’t know why, but I’m open to any answers that someone might have…I hate staying this angry….Thanks for your time… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello Carey, Sherri,Susan, Julia, I somehow missed getting some of the threads in my computer, so I am going out on a limb here responding, but, as usual I can’t keep my 2 cents to myself. As I read what postings I did get, I kept thinking about how different people respond differently to abuse. For instance, although I was very emotionally abused (as well as in other ways), and that was the only modeling I had to go by, I have almost never "lashed out" in the way that my abusers did. Now I am wondering why this is. I believe, as I am thinking this through, that it is precisely because of the hurting I did from that abuse that I don’t do it to others. Because I know how it feels and I don’t want to hurt others the way I have been hurt. So in a sense, I feel bewildered , too, sometimes with some of the flame throwing here and even expressed it when I first joined.  However, since then I have come to understand that not everybody reacts/responds the same way ,so that I believe as well as being as nonjudgemental as possible, I also have to respect that we are all in different stages of growth. If I feel someone is showing their anger at me in a hurtful way I think it is then MY responsiblity to approach them about it. As much as we want to protect one another, I believe we each have to find our own way with this. I feel the most important thing is that each person recognize his/her response to anger and   his/her ways of expressing anger. this conversation is a good for that very reason. We can each think about how we deal with anger and maybe ways in which to do it better and a way for us to recognize our progress and place in it all. I need to think about this some more, but would appreciate any thought regarding this. Strength to all, c.d.

Response:

Hi Julia, c.d. here

hi :) i really appreciate your thoughts and excellent analagies. It does help me understand in some ways. Read on for my comments and questions. So interesting that you mention this. I have for years been fascinated by the abborhent mind. In fact I have read some very interesting books on how the Nazi’s justified in their own minds doing the killing and torture of so many innocent people and then go home to their family and children as if they had come home from an average days work. Some of the theories on how this evolved are interesting. My husband says it is the Sociologist in me that wants to understand why people do such bad things.

I think I have an "inner-sociologist" too :) Yes – Nazi’s baffle me. And my father – abusive as he was at home – was still human in my eyes – just horribly fucked up and cruel. But then I just get completely lost when I image him on the front lines in the Korean war? He has killed people …? I have such a hard time grasping that he has actually *killed* people –  even though it was in a socially acceptable way. I don’t know why it is that for me it is totally *unheard of* that one human kill another (unless it’s on accident or total self-defense). Most of my friends don’t agree with me. I strongly oppose the death penalty, I would not kill someone for stealing my tv, I wouldn’t kill someone unless we were in a direct attack situation where I had to to survive. And I wonder why I feel so strongly this way? Literally most of the people I know don’t feel so strongly. If nothing else they believe Saddam Hussein should be killed. I just think he should be stopped, for some reason I just don’t think any human has a right to take another’s life. I wonder why I feel so strongly that way? I think this is a very good analagy, but there seems to be a difference in that the wolf is fearful for the LIVES of her little ones. I ,too, am a mother and am very protective of my children , so in that regard I can relate to what you are saying here. But, (Iam going out on a limb here expressing some of my political /religous beliefs) I don’t believe in the death penalty, so if my children were harmed I would want the perp captured and put away for life but not murdered. Now thank God this is a purely hypothetical situation and maybe if it really did happen I would want the perp killed. I hope I never have to challenge that. the point is , it is different when you are protecting some one else and different when it is a life threatening situation. My question is: when you feel that type of rage, regardless of the reason, does it FEEL life threatening and the moment of anger and that is why the reaction is so strong? Just wanting to understand.

It depends on the situation – very little makes me lash out anymore. Usually I just feel *really* annoyed and say something along the lines of "I’m not going to play" because the most common scenario I find myself angry in is when someone is trying to pick a fight and *trying* to find triggers. I think a good example of a time somewhat recently I "lost it" was walking in Belltown with a good friend of mine who was pregnant, and we were crossing a street (at a crosswalk) and some stupid yuppy guy came screeching around the corner at a good 40 mph (in heavy pedasterian downtown area) and I had to push Star out of the way so he wouldn’t hit her. And she feel down and the guy didn’t stop and I started running towards the car screaming, "I’ll show you how to drive motherfucker!"   After about a half block I regained my composure but was still seething. So, it’s usually something like that where the person may not be doing something intentionally destructive (but is just STUPID) but almost hurts me or someone I love. I had a similar experience with my family. My father was very abusive in many ways including sexually abusive to me. I was terrified all of my growing up years and his words hurt so much so , almost worse than his actions. I used to sob at the dinner table nightly as he took turns berating each and everyone of us (5) as my mother sat there saying nothing. I, too many times thought of death and in fact tried it as a teenager, but no one got help for me. I was too scared to fight back.I just took it so he would go away as soon as possible. But the words hurt so much I have almost never been able to lash out in a deliberatly hurtful way.

Hmmm … I think I feel exactly like you in that I couldn’t just be mean to someone just because I was annoyed or feeling bad about myself (I think that was my dad’s biggest motivation was it made him feel strong  when he abused us – yuck!) And if I do end up losing my temper I feel *awful* afterwards. I guess what I’m trying to relay is I *do* know how bad it feels for someone to even verbally lash out – I know it wo the depth of my soul. But when I’m suddenly in a "danger! danger!" situation it has become a blind reaction. Another good example is once at work this kind of crazy person called and wanted to talk to my boss who had *specificaly* requested no calls. So the person started yelling at me and calling me a "bitch" and telling me she’d get me fired. I *almost* lost my temper because if she *did* get me fired I couldn’t pay my rent and I don’t have anyone to borrow money from and I would be screwed – and I’d done nothing to her to justify such an action on her part. Luckily, I have never lost my temper at work so I didn’t. But that’s a good example – someone loudly threatening my security. In an emergency I panic, blank out and can’t think straight. A big problem for me in my nursing career although I have always been able to call someone quickly who stays alert.

It sounds like you think straight well enough! (ie: you call for help) :) I don’t know why we react so differently to similar abuse …??? Do you have panic attacks by any chance? I used to kind of live in a state of "perpetual crisis" (I grew up functioning the most efficient and well in emergencies) and when things calmed down I would have *horrible* panic attacks. I think it’s just how our brains decided to cope with things. I just want people to know that I wouldn’t hurt a fly in my heart. That’s why I work so hard to manage my temper so I *won’t* hurt people. I’ve never hurt my pets. No matter what they do. It has to be something *really* awful and threatening to hurt me or my friends to make me lose my temper. If someone hurt my dog there’s a good chance I’d lose my temper. But I have a big blanket rule – don’t yell or hit the dog!!! So – I’m not the same as my father. I never did anything to my father to threaten his life or his safety – except want to tell on him for raping me. And you know – if I did something as horrible as that, I would hate myself so much I’d just turn myself in! I really see losing one’s temper and lashing out (ie: yelling, not physical lashing out) as often just a symptom of being very very scared. I don’t put up with people doing it to me – but I don’t see them as as cruel and insensitive as people who just randomly abuse and do cold, calculating things because they feel so bad about themselves they have to have "power over" someone. I guess that’s why I don’t feel like an abuser – because the times I’ve lost my temper have had nothing to do with having power over or wanting to hurt somoene – it’s had to do with "You threatened me and I am scared and want you to back off!" That’s probably why I could never hurt a child. When I worked at the school for homeless kids some of the little kids were pretty aggressive and violent. And some of the older kids (the 6th graders) were prone to getting in physical fights. But they all had the "teacher respect" for me because I was "recess teacher" and none of them were capable of being so violent as to have weapons or something that *could* harm someone. And I *never* lost my temper with them. One little girl, J., *hated* authority and the more you told her what to do, the more she’d scream at the top of her lungs. And I totally understood that (for some reason) and I could see in her that that behavior was based mostly on fear. D., one of the little boys really liked to push "authority" to see how pissed he could get them, but he was so harmless – just a little 1st grade boy. Even the 6th graders were just children, I could never actually get angry with them because of that – they’re just children. They *can’t* hurt me enough to lose my temper. But a  drunk 36 year old 6′3" man who keep grabbing at my breasts and calling me a "stuck-up bitch" – he could hurt me. And that *has* put me on the edge of losing my temper. I am glad you have progressed . I think it curiously interesting Why in similar situations I would react one way and you another. Much to think

I know. That baffles me. It’s a big question I’d like answered. Kind of in the same vein of why did my dad become an abuser after his traumatic childhood – and my brother and I spend so much time *hypersensitive* for the rest of the world and fearing we hurt people just be breathing? I’d like to keep going with this discussion … if we ever find the answer you know we could make millions on the book! :) Julia Julia * http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tankgrrl "Oh God, Mulder, it smells like… I think it’s bile." "Is there any way I can get it off my fingers quickly  without betraying my cool exterior?"

Response:

*Susan dons firefighting gear momentarily* Hi Carey :)     From where I sit (waaaaaaaay over here :) , it looked to me like in your wanting to help folks see how destructive some of their anger came across to you as being, but in your not wanting to name names specifically, you ended up writing something that sounded as though you were telling *everyone* here that we (all) use anger destructively.  Go back to your original, and check out the "we" and "us" ’s that found their way into the anger part.  I know when I read it, I was thinking "wait a min, but *I* (right now, anyhow ;) dont (try not to) handle anger like that, why is she including *me* in what she’s writing?"  I think that might have been what Sherri was reacting to.  (I’m deliberately abstaining judgement on what Sherri wrote, as my intent here isn’t to get into the mass of claws and fangs scurrying round the group atm.  And I don’t mean Silver Tiger’s :)      I dont mean this as a flame (at all) — more of a possible explanation (not "fault") of what happened.  I haven’t generally seen you post stuff in the us/we tense before, so it did strike me as kind of odd when I read your note.  Is anything in particular going on?  Or is it more the feelings that can get stirred up when seeing folks using one another as target practice..? :P             *hugs*                 –Susan

Response:

Hey Carey :)     I probably shouldn’t be writing this, but *g*.. that I am speaks more to my view of you as someone strong who can take a bunch of feedback at once, more than anything else.  Kind of like the thread I had with Julia a while back. Carey wrote in small part: Further, must we always stand by silence and watch people hurt each other? What is so damaging about saying "I am really unhappy this is happening With our aggregate experience, shouldn’t we be able to find a better way?" Why is that any less acceptable than someone telling some else to ‘just fuck off’?

imho, it’s not the "I am really unhappy this is happening" bit that’s getting you into trouble here.. it’s the second part, where you switch to a more global incorporate-everyone line, that folks are biting at.  It’s hard, cause I know what you’re trying to say. *thinks* maybe.. "I am really unhappy this is happening.. all this fighting reminds me an awful lot of what it was like when my parents used to fight.. there’s *got* to be some less-hurtful way of working this out!  (insert suggestion here)"  (the reminding me part is my own response to this, btw) I dont like being around lots of people yelling.  It’s too freaken much like what I was caught between *all* the time growing up.  I’ve stayed quiet, though, cause I tend to go by the "if I dont say anything, then maybe they’ll stop quicker" (I think that’s an only-child type response ;) .. where as you being the middle one would probably be more prone to jump in and try to fix everything in an active way. Fighting scares me.  I think I’m going to go back off for a bit now.                  –Susan

Response:

On Thu, 18 Dec 1997, it was written: I didn’t say folks couldn’t be where they are at, I said I was bewildered by it.  IMO, there is somewhat of a difference.  Am I not entitled to my feelings/thoughts and to express them?

You’re absolutely entitled to your opinions – and to expressing them. As am I. I think we’re in agreement there. Now if I had said to a particular individual:  "You are a real jerk, you know that?  You go around hurting all these people and you just don’t give a shit, do you? Why don’t you grow up?"  I could more clearly see your point.  But that isn’t what I said.

No. You used pretty language – but you basically said, "Shame on you – you should know better!" And well … that’s not helpful or loving, no matter how sweet the tone is it’s said in. And, ironically, Julia, this_is_where_I_am_at…   I hurt when I see people I care about hurting each other.  So now what do we do?  

It *is* where you are at. And I am definitely judgemental. Ask anyone here – it’s not a pretty trait, but it’s one I try to change and to find a balance with. Further, must we always stand by silence and watch people hurt each other? What is so damaging about saying "I am really unhappy this is happening   With our aggregate experience, shouldn’t we be able to find a better way?" Why is that any less acceptable than someone telling some else to ‘just fuck off’?

I don’t think it’s particularly healthy to tell someone to "fuck off" – and I do think your first sentence of the paragraph is a healthy way to view things and I think most of us feel that way. In the heat of the moment few of us can keep that behavior 100% – that’s why we’re here. To learn from one another. Otherwise … I’d probably have no interest in this newsgroup because I wouldn’t need it. I guess the difference between the first sentence you mention here, and your previous post I responded to was this – the above sentence *is* caring. Your previous post – though well spoken – was shaming. I appreciate your time/energy/effort in this post.  

Thanks. I appreciate your taking time to respond – and doing it in a way that we can still have a discussion. Believe me – that *is* a trait that I greatly appreciate. I hope you know that. Julia Julia * http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tankgrrl "Oh God, Mulder, it smells like… I think it’s bile." "Is there any way I can get it off my fingers quickly  without betraying my cool exterior?"

Response:

Hello Carey, Sherri,Susan, Julia,

hi (this is Julia …) As I read what postings I did get, I kept thinking about how different people respond differently to abuse. For instance, although I was very emotionally abused (as well as in other ways), and that was the only modeling I had to go by, I have almost never "lashed out" in the way that my abusers did. Now I am wondering why this is. I believe, as I am thinking this through, that it is precisely because of the hurting I did from that abuse that I don’t do it to others. Because I know how it feels and I don’t want to hurt others the way I have been hurt.

I felt exactly like that for a long time. Generally, that’s how I feel most of the time. I’m kind of fascinated in a morbid way by soldiers, and criminals and people who do things that are to me "unthinkable". Alot of times I wonder if I’m "too sensitive" for America (thinking of the David Bowie/Trent Resnor song "I’m afraid of Americans" because I relate). I can’t even sit through a Quentin Tarentino film without getting horribly upset. I do understand being afraid and lashing out though – BUT I will say again, I don’t think it’s a healthy thing to do and if someone lashes out at me my response is usually "Go calm down – I’m not your punching bag" (if – let’s all hope – I’ve not been too triggered). How can I explain lashing out … hmmm … it’s kind of like suddenly being catapulted to a strange and hidden feral state of mind. It’s like your consciousness suddenly swooshing backwards down a dark hallway for a moment and you’re suddenly a wild dog who’s had her puppies threatened. Image a mom wolf who comes back to her den and finds a young child poking at her puppies with a stick – the child doesn’t mean any harm – probably doesn’t know better – but the mom wolf runs on instinct to protect her babies, and that little boy is poking them and scaring them – so mom wolf mauls the little boy. And it’s sad … but mom wolf is not evil because of it. Luckily, as humans we (I assume all of us) have the capacity to grow beyond living life in a feral state. Some children (like me) are brought up (at least emotionally) like animals. I had nice clothes, a nice house, we had nice cars and pets and a vcr and computer before any of the other kids. But my dad would get mad and lash out – and sometimes it seemed like he would kill us. And mom would not protect him. The most she’d do is threaten me if she thought I might tell someone. So, I grew up in a house where you *fought* to stay alive. Literally. You think you might be hurt – you damned well do everything you can to avoid it or fight back. Because when your dad is beating and raping you – death is definitely an option. So, my instincts were extremely well-tuned and I lived by them. I wake up to this day at the slightest noise. In emergencies my entire system shuts down and I become stronger/more alert/quicker until it’s over. So, I’m 30 years old and I’ve been in therapy for almost ten years. I’ve gotten to the point where I don’t punch my boyfriends anymore just because they touched me in my sleep. I’ve worked really hard on anger management because I don’t like going into blind rages. I’ve learned that anger physically manifests (at least with me) in my body and when I get *really* angry it’s good for me to 1) leave the situation 2) do something physical to shake it out 3) make sure I’m breathing. I’ve been really successful in the last couple years at *not* losing my temper. I think the last time I really flipped out and lost my temper was in 1995 when my friend Mark (who weighs 100 lbs more than me and is a black belt in kuk sol) pushed my boundaries so hard I lost control and punched him. And I was really sorry for it. Luckily, I could never strike a person smaller than me no matter how blind of a rage I’m in. I don’t know why my mind has that control but my dad’s didn’t. So – I don’t approve of actions like that. I aspire to be any way *but* like that. But I’ve had to work SOOOO hard to not be like that. And the whole time I’ve known that rage is not productive and that I don’t want to hurt anyone. There’s a lot of different ways to hurt people other than just by yelling at them or hitting them. I guess that’s what I was trying to say to Carey – that expressing your anger in a rage is really unhealthy. But expressing your anger in pretty words and shaming is equally unhealthy. Both are painful. But sometimes the pretty "peaceful" shaming words  are even worse because people can’t always feel like they have the right to be hurt. Because maybe they *did* deserve it, maybe they *should have known better*. Maybe all their best intentions and best efforts to be a good person were thwarted by someone who sees themself as to unable to ever make a mistake. So – I appreciate your ideas on anger and I believe we (as do I and Carey) share many of the same thoughts. I just am wary because I’ve heard things from her which strike me as "she is above those that may have a negative feeling or do something which is not politically correct". And I am far to marred to be in the company of perfect niceties. Julia – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – However, since then I have come to understand that not everybody reacts/responds the same way ,so that I believe as well as being as nonjudgemental as possible, I also have to respect that we are all in different stages of growth. If I feel someone is showing their anger at me in a hurtful way I think it is then MY responsiblity to approach them about it. As much as we want to protect one another, I believe we each have to find our own way with this. I feel the most important thing is that each person recognize his/her response to anger and   his/her ways of expressing anger. this conversation is a good for that very reason. We can each think about how we deal with anger and maybe ways in which to do it better and a way for us to recognize our progress and place in it all. I need to think about this some more, but would appreciate any thought regarding this. Strength to all, c.d.

Julia * http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tankgrrl "Oh God, Mulder, it smells like… I think it’s bile." "Is there any way I can get it off my fingers quickly  without betraying my cool exterior?"

Response:

Okay, Sherri again, hoping I now have enough open time to answer this at greater length.  I’ll admit at the front that some of what I’m writing here is pasted in (slightly edited) from a post I wrote very late in October.  Because in a lot of ways, I feel like I’m trying to make the same point in a different dialogue, and I like some of the ways I said it last time.  So if y’all feel a touch of the deja vu, it’s entirely apropos.

: Hi Sherri, : It’s me, Carey : Subject line changed for just a short bit of theorizing in the abstract. : : : Hi rosee and everyone else who may read this, : : : It is me, Carey : : : This is partially in response to what you have written and partially : : just an expression of my feelings/thoughts. : : : To start with, this is not directed *at* anyone.  It is not meant as an : : accusation.  The words herein stand on their own merit, they are not : : hinting at anything else or any one person.  I they speak to you, so be : : it.  If they speak about you…that is strictly coincidence. : : Understood, but still, I have to admit this is another post where your : position is striking me (oops, no pun intended) as a touch judgemental. : And I’d be lying if I said that didn’t leave me a bit annoyed with : you.  Not so much because I’m feeling attacked, but because I get : a bit annoyed at all sorts of people here when I see them taking : what I think are unfairly judgemental postures….. : What does judgmental mean to you?  How is my language materially different : than your own?  Are you being ‘fairly’ judgmental of me?  How does this : work Sherri?   Hopefully, I was clear enough about this in my shorter post, so I’ll skip down a touch… : : It is very clear to me that just because many of us are survivors that : : we have *not* given up our humanity.  We are capable of being reasonable : : and unreasonable, emotional and stoic, and etc. : : : What does bewilder me though, is how we are able to engage in some of : : the very behaviors which, IMO, give rise to much of the very abuse : : we claim to have survived. In passing (since I’m trying to both reread your original post and respond to your later one), this phrasing "we claim to have survived" makes me neck a little tense.  I don’t know what’s up with that, but hopefully I’ll be able to sort it out later…. : Depends on if we were ever modelled healthier alternatives.  If from : your infancy onward, all you were ever shown is people acting with : cruelty, then you might begin to believe that your only two options : are 1) to exist and imitate the behaviors you were taught or 2) to : not exist at all. : : Clearly, this isn’t the *only* way for a child to interpret the world : around her, but it’s certainly a possible and understandable one. : Yes it is, but I can still be bewildered by the aspect that  we have the : ability to model the very things that we were the victims of.  I can : acknowledge that it happens, I don’t have to be happy about it, in myself : or others.  And can it not be this unhappiness that encourages change? Now my question here stems from a seemingly circular moment in the conversation so far.  You initially said bewildered by this ability to strike out cruelly.  I thought I was providing an explanation for how that might sometimes happen: cruelty is all a child is taught, it’s her only known model of what anger looks like, so it’s the only model she knows to follow.  You then stated you’re still bewildered by this. So my question is: could you more precisely articulate what your confusion is, what ways my explanation didn’t do enough to help you understand, what more I can tell you to help you be less bewildered? By the by, stating this is something you’re bewildered by (first post) and stating it’s something that makes you unhappy (second post) are two different conversations. : And if I am not challenged in my  thinking and behavior, am I not more : likely to get stuck where I am?   Well, yes and no.  There’s *nothing* more powerful, in my eyes than telling a friend that you accept the whole of them, that you love them, care for them as a whole, entire person.  Trying to help someone on the road to self-improvement is a tricky thing: at what point does "challeneging someone’s behavior" turn into shaming? And for me at least, the idea of shaming takes me right back to remembering my family’s treatement of my uniqueness.  And so someone who tells me, in effect "shame on you, you should know better"….  Well, that’s not gonna make me want to change. And your first post read to me as a long prettily packaged "shame on you, you should know better."  Later posts from you in this thread (including the one I’m replying to now) have taken a slightly different tack that is easier for me to take. : : And this is one of them: : : : The ability/willingness to blindly strike out at another person with : : what appears to be nothing more than an attempt to hurt because we : : have been hurt.   : <<snipped rest of example to appease my newsreader : : Yes it is very human.  That doesn’t make it right.  And some of us : : engaging in this know better.  All of us should. Clearly, here was a moment I found your original language hard to take— and I don’t seem to have been the only one.  It read to me as an incredibly shaming gesture. : Well, maybe we *should* know better, and maybe a bunch of us *do* know : better in our intellectual selves.  But maybe some of us haven’t learned : new behaviors yet.  I mean really, when precisely do you expect me to : have learned healthy ways to express anger?  From my father, king of : the blatantly cruel putdown?  From my mother, with her preference for the : subtly snide?  From the kids at school who teased me?  From my teachers : who scolded my emotional incapacity but didn’t give me any solutions? : (Which, incidentally, is kind of how I’m seeing your post right now) : And if all we can’t challenge each other to grow, to entertain new : perspectives, then how do we grow, Sherri?  If people don’t give me : feedback and information about how my behavior affects them, on what basis : do I make decisions about my own growth?  Am I just suppose to guess?  And : just what is the purpose of your post, Sherri?  To just put words on the : screen?  I don’t think so.  You are obviously unhappy with my post, and  I : would guess with me and you are trying to express that.  Are you doing that : strictly for your own benefit?  I doubt it.  So what is the difference, : Sherri?   Yes, but in your first post, what specifically did you say about *how* to gain these new perspectives?  Cause I still can’t find it.  I can find lots of words about how the perspective of striking out isn’t right and how we should all know better.  But I can’t find where you talk about what you’ve tried to get past that persepctive. What’s troubling me most is not that you’re hoping for growth, but a certain—I’m not sure what to call it—impatience (?) I’m seeing with where people happen to be at this point in their process.  Speaking personally from my struggles to deal with anger.  Coming into anger meant coming into *so* *much* anger that I didn’t know how to control it. Trying not to go off like a banshee, but sometimes losing control.  And yes, I value the guidance I received in how to be more measured in how I express anger (even though I still lose my cool time to time).  But that guidance was valuable to me because it was paired with *understanding.* Understanding that I was learning new ways to speak, understanding that as clumsy as I was with my anger, I was doing the best I could at that moment, and that the project of learning anger is a worthwhile one. Having that side of the feedback is what made it possible for me to accept feedback on how to modulate my ways of expressing anger. So for me, it’s essential that challenges to my dysfunctions are paired with understanding and compassion for why that dysfunction is in play. And since you are challenging dysfunction while simultaneously proclaiming your *lack* of understanding, well, clearly, this is why your post was troubling me. : When was I supposed to learn healthy anger management?  I’ve been working : on it in therapy for maybe the last couple years, mixed in with other : therapy work, of course……  Until then, I literally had not ever : been shown better ways to express anger.  It was either strike outward : and be hurtful, or take a knife to my body.  Those were literally my : only two choices. : And how did you ever learn that there were other choices?  Did the people : in your life go "Well Sherri is cutting herself again, but she came by it : honestly, so we better not say anything.  Wouldn’t want to be judgmental : and say ‘Gee that looks really painful and it hurts to watch.’ "  Sherri, I : have grown and continue to grow because, in part, some caring people took : the time and energy to challenge me, to express their distress at watching : me hurt myself and hurt others.  In their ‘judgement’  I deserved to be : healthier. See above about the pairing of challenges with understanding.  And also, I really agree with what Julia said about the difference between what you’re saying here: "It hurts to watch you behave in these self-harming ways," which joins compassion and caring and challnging all together. Versus what you said initially: "I don’t understand this and you should know better," where I don’t see any compassion or caring, just the challenge. : Now, clearly, things are different for you, and I honestly don’t recall : enough of your bio to guess what that … read more »

Response:

Hello Carey, Sherri,Susan, Julia, I somehow missed getting some of the threads in my computer, so I am going out on a limb here responding, but, as usual I can’t keep my 2 cents to myself. As I read what postings I did get, I kept thinking about how different people respond differently to abuse. For instance, although I was very emotionally abused (as well as in other ways), and that was the only modeling I had to go by, I have almost never "lashed out" in the way that my abusers did. Now I am wondering why this is. I believe, as I am thinking this through, that it is precisely because of the hurting I did from that abuse that I don’t do it to others. Because I know how it feels and I don’t want to hurt others the way I have been hurt. So in a sense, I feel bewildered , too, sometimes with some of the flame throwing here and even expressed it when I first joined.  However, since then I have come to understand that not everybody reacts/responds the same way ,so that I believe as well as being as nonjudgemental as possible, I also have to respect that we are all in different stages of growth. If I feel someone is showing their anger at me in a hurtful way I think it is then MY responsiblity to approach them about it. As much as we want to protect one another, I believe we each have to find our own way with this. I feel the most important thing is that each person recognize his/her response to anger and   his/her ways of expressing anger. this conversation is a good for that very reason. We can each think about how we deal with anger and maybe ways in which to do it better and a way for us to recognize our progress and place in it all. I need to think about this some more, but would appreciate any thought regarding this. Strength to all, c.d. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

: Hi Sherri, : It’s me, Carey Yup, I’ll be replying in pieces because I only have a couple free minutes…. : Subject line changed for just a short bit of theorizing in the abstract. : : : Hi rosee and everyone else who may read this, : : : It is me, Carey : : : This is partially in response to what you have written and partially : just : : an expression of my feelings/thoughts. : : : To start with, this is not directed *at* anyone.  It is not meant as an : : accusation.  The words herein stand on their own merit, they are not : : hinting at anything else or any one person.  I they speak to you, so be : it. : :  If they speak about you…that is strictly coincidence. : : Understood, but still, I have to admit this is another post where your : position is striking me (oops, no pun intended) as a touch judgemental. : And I’d be lying if I said that didn’t leave me a bit annoyed with : you.  Not so much because I’m feeling attacked, but because I get : a bit annoyed at all sorts of people here when I see them taking : what I think are unfairly judgemental postures….. : What does judgmental mean to you?  How is my language materially different : than your own?  Are you being ‘fairly’ judgmental of me?  How does this : work Sherri?   The material difference in language is in phrases such as I highlighted above—and yup, you’re right, I slipped up here and there below. But I’m still conceptualizing things as my perceptions.  Your words are "strinking me" in such and such a fashion, there’s something "that I think" is unfairly judgemental….  That language is intended to *immediately* highlight my own limitations and fallibilities. When you say "We should know better," yes you’ve included yourself in that, but you’re also making a *should* command to other people. *That’s* what troubles me so greatly and angers me so. Because, for all that you’re talking here in your response about "hey can’t we look for different ways?" I did not see that in your first post.  Your first post seemed to me—like I said before—-like the kind of thing where someone talks about inappropriate responses *without* taking that next step to working towards solutions. And when I write more, I’ll parse out why I got such a different impression from your words than you say you intended.  I’m betting some of it is on me and misreading; I’d also bet that not *all* of it is on me.   *shrug* Sherri

Response:

: The ability/willingness to blindly strike out at another person with what : appears to be nothing more than an attempt to hurt because we have been : hurt.   <<snipped rest of example to appease my newsreader : Yes it is very human.  That doesn’t make it right.  And some of us engaging : in this know better.  All of us should. Well, maybe we *should* know better, and maybe a bunch of us *do* know better in our intellectual selves.  But maybe some of us haven’t learned new behaviors yet.

This whole discussion struck me with kind of a basic fundamental thought – if we all knew how to "not react" and how to express anger in a healthy way, and how to not be triggered by others … why would we waste our time posting to this newsgroup? Something I often have to remember is, if I’m reading a newsgroup re: survivors of abuse, and many use it as a support network, and it’s all pretty even in that we all have our issues and there’s no therapist overseeing things – I can’t possibly expect the people here to all have their shit together. Otherwise – why would anyone be here? Fighting freaks me out. And I aspire to *not* hurt people as best I can even when I’m triggered. But I know from personal experience that when I throw stones about someone losing control and lashing out – I better be prepared if I ever do that. And not to long ago I did (can’t remember what it was about) – I ended up getting sooooo pissed off at someone I just went off on my little "fuck this/fuck that/you’re a fuckin idiot" tangent. And "I know better" and I didn’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings but for some reason that day I lost my temper. I hated it when people told me I should know better when I was a kid. If people knew better they wouldn’t do it! If everyone here was all apple-pie polite and totally p.c. – besides that it would be nauseating, it would be inhuman and I’d be concerned as to why anyone was in a ng revolving around recovering from abuse if they were so together. I think you (Carey) are a very nice person. And I know exactly what you mean by how it’s a good aspiration that we don’t hurt each other the way we’ve been abused. But I’ll ask you the same thing someone asked me not too long ago – why is it so important to you to not let the people on this ng be where they’re at? I know from experience telling whoever that they should know better will not convince them ("whoever" being a hypothetical non-person in this situation as I’m not talking about anyone in particular). The best protection in a world where people aren’t very well prepared to meet every situation in a civilized, polite manner (you and me both included) is to just keep learning about people and deciding who it is you feel you trust and what level based on exactly where they are at at the time – your aspiration of what you think they should be like aside. Anyway … this is a lot longer than I wanted it to be so I’ll stop now! Julia * http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tankgrrl "Oh God, Mulder, it smells like… I think it’s bile." "Is there any way I can get it off my fingers quickly  without betraying my cool exterior?"

Response:

hi sherri thanks for this excellent response….you expressed my feelings exactly. b – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Subject line changed for just a short bit of theorizing in the abstract. : Hi rosee and everyone else who may read this, : It is me, Carey : This is partially in response to what you have written and partially just : an expression of my feelings/thoughts. : To start with, this is not directed *at* anyone.  It is not meant as an : accusation.  The words herein stand on their own merit, they are not : hinting at anything else or any one person.  I they speak to you, so be it. :  If they speak about you…that is strictly coincidence. Understood, but still, I have to admit this is another post where your position is striking me (oops, no pun intended) as a touch judgemental. And I’d be lying if I said that didn’t leave me a bit annoyed with you.  Not so much because I’m feeling attacked, but because I get a bit annoyed at all sorts of people here when I see them taking what I think are unfairly judgemental postures….. : It is very clear to me that just because many of us are survivors that we : have *not* given up our humanity.  We are capable of being reasonable and : unreasonable, emotional and stoic, and etc. : What does bewilder me though, is how we are able to engage in some of the : very behaviors which, IMO, give rise to much of the very abuse we claim to : have survived. Depends on if we were ever modelled healthier alternatives.  If from your infancy onward, all you were ever shown is people acting with cruelty, then you might begin to believe that your only two options are 1) to exist and imitate the behaviors you were taught or 2) to not exist at all. Clearly, this isn’t the *only* way for a child to interpret the world around her, but it’s certainly a possible and understandable one. : And this is one of them: : The ability/willingness to blindly strike out at another person with what : appears to be nothing more than an attempt to hurt because we have been : hurt.   <<snipped rest of example to appease my newsreader : Yes it is very human.  That doesn’t make it right.  And some of us engaging : in this know better.  All of us should. Well, maybe we *should* know better, and maybe a bunch of us *do* know better in our intellectual selves.  But maybe some of us haven’t learned new behaviors yet.  I mean really, when precisely do you expect me to have learned healthy ways to express anger?  From my father, king of the blatantly cruel putdown?  From my mother, with her preference for the subtly snide?  From the kids at school who teased me?  From my teachers who scolded my emotional incapacity but didn’t give me any solutions? (Which, incidentally, is kind of how I’m seeing your post right now) When was I supposed to learn healthy anger management?  I’ve been working on it in therapy for maybe the last couple years, mixed in with other therapy work, of course……  Until then, I literally had not ever been shown better ways to express anger.  It was either strike outward and be hurtful, or take a knife to my body.  Those were literally my only two choices. Now, clearly, things are different for you, and I honestly don’t recall enough of your bio to guess what that difference is.  Maybe you’ve been at recovery longer, so you’ve had a chance to get to a different place with anger.  MAybe you had healthier models all during your abuse, someone in your life you could look at and say "Oh *that’s* the way people can treat each other kindly."  Maybe you’ve got a better real- life suport system—-family, spouse, a lot of really good friends. Whatever your advantage is, I’m glad you have it, and I’m glad you can have this much healthier capacity in dealing with your anger. But you know what, I’m angry at you that you can’t even fathom why people here would strike out the way they do.  I mean, how much compassion and imagination does it really take to think "okay, someone who never saw anger expressed except cruelly might not know how else to be angry herself"?  How much compassion would it take to talk about this without these judgemental catchphrases like "you all should know better"? : I am frustrated, bewildered and just a bit angry.  Still and all, I would : not go out of my way one tiny  bit to hurt any of you and if I did, I : certainly wouldn’t justify it through my love for another. Except, you see, this post is also hurtful—-its hurtful in a different way, it hurts different people.  Quite honestly, the mud that’s been flying around so far hasn’t really been hurtful to me.  I’m outside the immediate situation, and none of the core issues are triggery ones for me.  Your post was much more hurtful to me individually.  Because you seeming unwilling to accept or even imagine a position outside of your own, your judgemental language, your seeming expectation that we all just flip on "healthy anger management" like turning on a light switch (and believe me, if I could do that, I *would*) …… well, *those* are all triggery issues for me. : Flame away if you must, try to understand if you can. My question to you is: will you take the effort to *understand* what I’ve just written here?  If you met the woman I was some time ago, just learning not to direct the anger inward, just learning not to cut myself up and think I should be dead.  If, in order to learn how to direct my anger outward, if in order to learn healthy angry behavior, I had to go through a long stretch of learning. Being angry in cruel ways, the only ways I’d ever seen; trying healthier ways; backsliding into cruelty; working and trying and failing sometimes.  Would you be so hell-bent on stifling my tendencies towards cruelty that you’d stifle the entire learning curve? : …still casting bottles into the sea : Carey Sherri

Response:

Subject line changed for just a short bit of theorizing in the abstract.

: Hi rosee and everyone else who may read this, : It is me, Carey : This is partially in response to what you have written and partially just : an expression of my feelings/thoughts. : To start with, this is not directed *at* anyone.  It is not meant as an : accusation.  The words herein stand on their own merit, they are not : hinting at anything else or any one person.  I they speak to you, so be it. :  If they speak about you…that is strictly coincidence. Understood, but still, I have to admit this is another post where your position is striking me (oops, no pun intended) as a touch judgemental. And I’d be lying if I said that didn’t leave me a bit annoyed with you.  Not so much because I’m feeling attacked, but because I get a bit annoyed at all sorts of people here when I see them taking what I think are unfairly judgemental postures….. : It is very clear to me that just because many of us are survivors that we : have *not* given up our humanity.  We are capable of being reasonable and : unreasonable, emotional and stoic, and etc. : What does bewilder me though, is how we are able to engage in some of the : very behaviors which, IMO, give rise to much of the very abuse we claim to : have survived. Depends on if we were ever modelled healthier alternatives.  If from your infancy onward, all you were ever shown is people acting with cruelty, then you might begin to believe that your only two options are 1) to exist and imitate the behaviors you were taught or 2) to not exist at all. Clearly, this isn’t the *only* way for a child to interpret the world around her, but it’s certainly a possible and understandable one. : And this is one of them: : The ability/willingness to blindly strike out at another person with what : appears to be nothing more than an attempt to hurt because we have been : hurt.   <<snipped rest of example to appease my newsreader : Yes it is very human.  That doesn’t make it right.  And some of us engaging : in this know better.  All of us should. Well, maybe we *should* know better, and maybe a bunch of us *do* know better in our intellectual selves.  But maybe some of us haven’t learned new behaviors yet.  I mean really, when precisely do you expect me to have learned healthy ways to express anger?  From my father, king of the blatantly cruel putdown?  From my mother, with her preference for the subtly snide?  From the kids at school who teased me?  From my teachers who scolded my emotional incapacity but didn’t give me any solutions? (Which, incidentally, is kind of how I’m seeing your post right now) When was I supposed to learn healthy anger management?  I’ve been working on it in therapy for maybe the last couple years, mixed in with other therapy work, of course……  Until then, I literally had not ever been shown better ways to express anger.  It was either strike outward and be hurtful, or take a knife to my body.  Those were literally my only two choices. Now, clearly, things are different for you, and I honestly don’t recall enough of your bio to guess what that difference is.  Maybe you’ve been at recovery longer, so you’ve had a chance to get to a different place with anger.  MAybe you had healthier models all during your abuse, someone in your life you could look at and say "Oh *that’s* the way people can treat each other kindly."  Maybe you’ve got a better real- life suport system—-family, spouse, a lot of really good friends. Whatever your advantage is, I’m glad you have it, and I’m glad you can have this much healthier capacity in dealing with your anger. But you know what, I’m angry at you that you can’t even fathom why people here would strike out the way they do.  I mean, how much compassion and imagination does it really take to think "okay, someone who never saw anger expressed except cruelly might not know how else to be angry herself"?  How much compassion would it take to talk about this without these judgemental catchphrases like "you all should know better"? : I am frustrated, bewildered and just a bit angry.  Still and all, I would : not go out of my way one tiny  bit to hurt any of you and if I did, I : certainly wouldn’t justify it through my love for another. Except, you see, this post is also hurtful—-its hurtful in a different way, it hurts different people.  Quite honestly, the mud that’s been flying around so far hasn’t really been hurtful to me.  I’m outside the immediate situation, and none of the core issues are triggery ones for me.  Your post was much more hurtful to me individually.  Because you seeming unwilling to accept or even imagine a position outside of your own, your judgemental language, your seeming expectation that we all just flip on "healthy anger management" like turning on a light switch (and believe me, if I could do that, I *would*) …… well, *those* are all triggery issues for me. : Flame away if you must, try to understand if you can. My question to you is: will you take the effort to *understand* what I’ve just written here?  If you met the woman I was some time ago, just learning not to direct the anger inward, just learning not to cut myself up and think I should be dead.  If, in order to learn how to direct my anger outward, if in order to learn healthy angry behavior, I had to go through a long stretch of learning. Being angry in cruel ways, the only ways I’d ever seen; trying healthier ways; backsliding into cruelty; working and trying and failing sometimes.  Would you be so hell-bent on stifling my tendencies towards cruelty that you’d stifle the entire learning curve? : …still casting bottles into the sea : Carey Sherri

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