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insanity? programming?

Question:

Just as everyone here has questioned the behavior of their spouses,  everyone is looking for answers for this tragedy.  Why is it so hard to believe that there is just plain and simple EVIL in this world?  Why do we always have to believe that it’s insanity, depression, mental illness or some other reason than what it is?  It’s evil, it works hard, it walks, talks, lives and breathes and it can come in the most attractive package.

Response:

We are a lot more like those terrorists than we care to admit.

Oh, P L E A S E! That is without a doubt the most ridiculous, most preposterous, most arrogant, most insensitive thing I’ve heard in my entire life. Without a single doubt. Bar none.

Response:

Just as everyone here has questioned the behavior of their spouses,  everyone is looking for answers for this tragedy.  Why is it so hard to believe that there is just plain and simple EVIL in this world?  Why do we always have to believe that it’s insanity, depression, mental illness or some other reason than what it is?  It’s evil, it works hard, it walks, talks, lives and breathes and it can come in the most attractive package.

It would be nice if we could learn to recognize it somehow, and possibly divert it, rather than just accept it. Simply labeling it "EVIL" doesn’t help solve it or keep it from happening again. But i agree, it IS evil…

Response:

programming? It would be nice if we could learn to recognize it somehow, and possibly divert it, rather than just accept it.

I never said anything about accepting it, however, many do.  Maybe not to the degree of evil we saw on Tuesday, but if you think a little you will see where it is accepted every day of our lives by someone we know.  If you can’t recognize the evil in our society today, I can’t help you there. Simply labeling it "EVIL" doesn’t help solve it or keep it from happening again. But i agree, it IS evil…

Evil has been among us since the beginning of time.  The more we cater to it, the stronger it becomes.  The problem is, God has been driven away and society is more tolerant of it. If it doesn’t affect *us*, we turn away.  We don’t hold each other accountable.   When you have faith, not simply religion, but faith, you fear not.  (23rd Psalm).  You don’t practice evil and you don’t condone it.  There are a lot of evil doers in this world.

Response:

It is what people here did to me by choosing to believe a well-constructed set of lies about me.

maybe you should just get over yourself.

Response:

programming? It would be nice if we could learn to recognize it somehow, and possibly divert it, rather than just accept it. I never said anything about accepting it, however, many do.  Maybe not to the degree of evil we saw on Tuesday, but if you think a little you will see where it is accepted every day of our lives by someone we know.  If you can’t recognize the evil in our society today, I can’t help you there.

That’s just the problem my son is having right now… We DON’T know how to recognize it, like the classmate that suddenly started shooting… A lot of kids feel guilty now becuz they think they should have recognized it, but it wasn’t apparent to most that this boy would do such a thing… he just seemed like a regular kid, who would have thought he had such evil inside him? And then one of the other things that really disturbed my son was that nothing was really changed, once the media had done their thing. It’s hard to accept, but i don’t now what else to do about it….  it’s like we just wait for it to happen again, and feeling helpless…  that’s what he’s expressed to me, as well…

Response:

Being German and growing up in Germany and the German school system, I was faced with the "why"  and "how"questions  maybe a bit more than people from other countries. The history of my country was something that I had to come to terms with and that I had to understand.

  Thank you for sharing this.   If we go back a few more years, to 1618-1648, every western Catholic or Protestant has to ask the same question.  The 30 years war was second only to the Black Death in killing Europeans.  My point being only that it is not unique to Germany or Germans (see also the killing fields in Cambodia, among many others).   The non-uniqueness, as your story shows, is the important part. The capacity for the horrific does lie within us _all_.  Hence, for the Christians in the group, the line "Judge not, lest ye be judged." We will judge anyhow, being human.  But let us not condemn entire groups because they seem superfically similar to those who perpetrated the acts. To repeat: Well, that is my theory. Discovering my dark side made me understand a little bit more, how such cruelty is possible.

– Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links. Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

Response:

And then one of the other things that really disturbed my son was that nothing was really changed, once the media had done their thing. It’s hard to accept, but i don’t now what else to do about it….  it’s like we just wait for it to happen again, and feeling helpless…  that’s what he’s expressed to me, as well…

My experience with random violence (which is insignificant when compared to that of ML’s son or the recent tragedy) is that the violent event has changed ME.  The world is the same as it’s always been–full of mostly good people with a smattering of evil.  My brief contact with that evil didn’t change the world, but it did change how I viewed the world.  A year later, I’m still dealing with the fact that I am different.  I’m scared, when I used to be brave.  I’m suspicious–well, I was always suspicious but now I’m overboard. I’m still struggling to deal with this, and suspect that I could use some counseling.  I can only imagine how hard it would be for a teenaged child to deal with an event that was 100 times more tragic and scary. With counseling and time, hopefully he can learn that the world is what we make of it, and we can choose to focus on the pain and the fear and the evil, or we can choose to focus on the good and the love that we see in others. Lauri in WA, still obviously a work in progress. lauri522 AT earthlink DOT net

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And then one of the other things that really disturbed my son was that nothing was really changed, once the media had done their thing. It’s hard to accept, but i don’t now what else to do about it….  it’s like we just wait for it to happen again, and feeling helpless…  that’s what he’s expressed to me, as well… My experience with random violence (which is insignificant when compared to that of ML’s son or the recent tragedy) is that the violent event has changed ME.  The world is the same as it’s always been–full of mostly good people with a smattering of evil.  My brief contact with that evil didn’t change the world, but it did change how I viewed the world.  A year later, I’m still dealing with the fact that I am different.  I’m scared, when I used to be brave.  I’m suspicious–well, I was always suspicious but now I’m overboard. I’m still struggling to deal with this, and suspect that I could use some counseling.  I can only imagine how hard it would be for a teenaged child to deal with an event that was 100 times more tragic and scary. With counseling and time, hopefully he can learn that the world is what we make of it, and we can choose to focus on the pain and the fear and the evil, or we can choose to focus on the good and the love that we see in others. Lauri in WA, still obviously a work in progress.

Thanks, Lauri.  Believe me, I’ll be passing any info like this on to him… i think it helps him to understand his own feelings… It has definitely changed him, becuz when i look into his eyes i see a different person.  But he’s not bitter, just scared.  I’m hoping the scared won’t TURN to bitter (or total defeatedness).  This is a crucial time.   And he’s certainly surrounded by a lot of love…  He told me today that he was really "doing ok" about the school event, but then when last Tuesday happened, it rocked the world and brought out the terror from the first one…   Lord help us all, we don’t need any more!

Response:

he’s certainly surrounded by a lot of love…  He told me today that he was really "doing ok" about the school event, but then when last Tuesday happened, it rocked the world and brought out the terror from the first one…  

I know exactly what you mean.  A few weeks ago, there was a big party down the street that went into the night and I finally had to call the cops to quiet them down.  After the cops left and I was getting into bed (at 1 am), there was a knocking at the door.  I looked through the peephole (finally learned my lesson!!!) and sure enough, it was one of the drunks from the party.  A whole year’s healing went right down the drain and I was a crying, trembling mess as I dialed the cops again. I ended up having to go spend the night with my parents, but I only slept after bawling hysterically for an hour (for nothing, it turns out…..the drunk guy had just wanted to explain that they were having a party for someone they hadn’t seen in 4 years and they were sorry). Healing happens in stages.  We go along OK for awhile, and then when something scary or upsetting happens, it can set us back.  To me, trying to focus on all the good, positive aspects of life can make things seem less scary. I wish your son well. Lauri in WA lauri522 AT earthlink DOT net

Response:

Healing happens in stages.  We go along OK for awhile, and then when something scary or upsetting happens, it can set us back.  To me, trying to focus on all the good, positive aspects of life can make things seem less scary. I wish your son well.

and the same to you, Lauri..  It sounds like you have a good understanding of your own reaction.  That’s a good place to start.  And it’s always better safe than sorry.  Keep yourself safe..   I’m realizing that some things will just stay with us for the rest of our lives, and become a part of us in a way.  We have to accept that, i guess.

Response:

Being German and growing up in Germany and the German school system, I was faced with the "why"  and "how"questions  maybe a bit more than people from other countries. The history of my country was something that I had to come to terms with and that I had to understand. Why did this happen? How could "my"people have had so little respect for another race, for the lives of other human beings? Why is it, that even though I knew that my family and my friends were caring, compassionate people, their grandparents committed such horrific, violent and brutal acts against other human beings? Yes, I learned about all the facts, but the facts didn’t make me understand. You see, I couldn’t just blindly hate an entire country for the crimes they committed, because I was part of it, I KNEW the people personally and had seen their kind and compassionate sides. But when I was around 14, I got a glimpse of understanding. I got to see a part of others and myself, which I was never aware existed until this day. I was away with my  class on a school trip, staying in a youth hostel. None of us were prepared for what the teachers had in mind with us ( even though our parents were informed and had given their consent beforehand) It all started out as a game, a strange game we thought. Objective: for the next 2 days, the kids with the brown  eyes were in control. They  had the power to tell the kids with the blue and green eyes what to do, had the power to order and boss them around, punish them ( not physically though) if they didn’t follow their orders. For the first few hours it was just a game, the first few orders were given and taken with a giggle or a laugh. But that changed rather quickly. A solidarity emerged between the brown eyed kids, they started to enjoy their power, started to take advantage of it, not having to fear, that their unfairness would be punished. A solidarity also emerged between the blue and green eyed kids. Resentment started to surface, an unbelievable feeling for fairness and justice and revenge and a complete disbelief about the behaviour of their friends started to surface. How could the kids, who were their best friends all of a sudden turn against them, just because the colour of their eyes was different? How could they take advantage of their power and why didn’t anybody of the "grown ups" step in and make them stop? My eyes are blue, my best friends eyes are brown. She turned against me, laughed at me, when I complained about her ordering me around, seemed to get pleasure out of the fact that I was exhausted from the work she had given me, while she was having a good time with her "new brown eyed friends" How? Why? I just couldn’t understand and none of the other blue eyed kids could understand it either. By the end of the 2 days some of the feelings of resentment and anger had turned into feelings of hate. After 2 days the roles were reversed. Now the blue eyed kids were in control. Of course we could justify every misery we put on the brown eyed kids. This was revenge! They deserved it! And we enjoyed it! Boy, did we enjoy it! We could act on our evil thoughts without the fear of being punished, with the approval and praise from our new allies and with the justification that we had a right to do it, because they had done it to us. After another 2 days the game was over and we had all met our darkest side within us. What did I learn from this "game"? Yes, of course I learned and experienced how terrible it feels to be wronged, to be powerless, to be at the mercy of people who seemed to have no compassion. But that was something that I kind of knew before, something that I was able to understand even I hadn’t experienced it before. What I didn’t know before, was the fact, that I was capable of feeling such pleasure because I had power.  I didn’t know before that I could justify wrong doings so easily for myself. I didn’t know that I could have such strong feelings of hate, revenge and bitterness. I didn’t know that I could be so easily influenced by circumstances and other people. I didn’t know that my compassion could be so easily replaced by power. I didn’t know that my values and respect for other people were so vulnerable. I didn’t know about the dark side inside of me. And it scared the hell out of me! Of course our teachers spent the following 3 days talking to us,analysing what happened, discussing the events and no friendships were broken because of it, because we all realised, that each and every one of us has this dark side inside of us. But what matters is what you do with it, how you control it! Yes, there is evil in every person, but there is also a mind who can control it – AS LONG AS WE ARE AWARE OF IT! As long as we recognise the warning signs whenever we are tempted to act on it. As long as we know that the dark side exists and recognise when we are most vulnerable to let it overpower the good within us. None of us will ever forget those 4 days. It was a hard lesson, but a lesson for life. I caught myself months  after this still looking into peoples eyes to determine which group they belonged to. It took a lot of work to overcome that, to overcome the racism, which was created in the sense of an experiment. The natural instincts of survival were still in place, even though I KNEW that there is no difference in life between blue and brown eyed people. And whenever I catch myself today, judging somebody on anything else but their own behaviour, the fear inside of me creeps up again, knowing, that the dark side is still there. Knowing, that it will always be there and that I will always have to watch it and control it. It takes awareness and effort to control the dark side, especially when the temptation  and opportunity  is there to get pleasure out of acting on it. When we know that we will get approval, when we think we can justify our actions. To this day I am very grateful to the 2 teachers who showed me and made me aware of my dark side. But there are lots of people in the world who may have never seen or never even recognised their own dark side and won’t be able to fight it, in times when circumstances or other people call upon in. Another form of ignorance, but unfortunately we see it every day. People who I would have never expected, expressing their hate for a complete race right now, because of the attack on Tuesday. Kill all Islamic people! Would they have said that openly BEFORE this happened? No, they wouldn’t have, but because circumstances, feelings of revenge and justification  and the expectation of approval is making them vulnerable and because there is no guard at the door of their dark side, it is so easy for this part of them to take over all the kindness and compassion which usually rules their life. Well, that is my theory. Discovering my dark side made me understand a little bit more, how such cruelty is possible. Nena "Guenstige Winde kann nur der nutzen, der weiss, wohin er will"

Response:

Look at this newsgroup: A few "leaders" with an axe to grind "program" their followers to "hate the trolls." Some followers go over the edge. We are a lot more like those terrorists than we care to admit. The real evil is when third parties start acting out on the basis of a hatred which is not their own.  Those people are the true threats to society, because they are easily manipulated by disinformation.

Drip, drip, drip…

Response:

Bet for a living ,you weren;’t perchance 2B A player where you? At any rate ML.. It’s hard to make sence of insanity, but any one who could carry out this plan without second thought was  definatly insane. After all if bin Ladden was behind it, how insane is it to stay behind and NOT die?  (thats not to say that I don’t think he is NOT nutz)

Response:

Bet for a living ,you weren;’t perchance 2B A player where you?

Same troll.. I have hopes he reformed… mabey, mabey not… At any rate ML.. It’s hard to make sence of insanity, but any one who could carry out this plan without second thought was  definatly insane. After all if

Insanity varries, in WWII select Japaneese airmen sat in what was in essence, a flying bomb and directed it into our ships. It apperas the plane which crashed in PA was drove into the ground to stop the hijacking. Insanity or courage, mabey a little of both.   Welcome back my friends to the show that never ends Were so glad you could attend come inside come inside Emerson Lake and Palmer To Reply by e-mail remove the number 1 from

Response:

I believe this struggle to understand ‘why?’ is part of the grieving process.  It is the struggle that is important,  not whether one ever finds an answer peace BillH – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I keep wondering about something. When someone does something horrible that we don’t understand, I have this desire to try to get inside their head and see what made them do it.  That does NOT mean i condone what they did or think there’s any excuse for it.  It just means that i would like to, rather than go on, "why why why?", try to find out what THEIR perceptions were when they did whatever it was they did. To me, it seems like a possible way to try to prevent something from happening again elsewhere. Like here in ASD.  When someone goes "why why why" did their ex cheat/leave. But do they REALLY want to know what was going on in their ex’s head when he/she did this, or are they just going "why why why"?  It doesn’t JUSTIFY it, but it sure could help prevent it from happening in the future with another person, or at least point to the signs.  To at least TRY to figure out why this person felt that they had to do the bad thing that they did.  THEN punish them – after getting some valuable information first! I would like to know exactly what was in the mind of terrorists lately, too. How can a human kill other humans like this?  All i can figure is they had to have an ability to "de-humanize" all those thousands of ppl and look at them as specks, like ants, without souls, without minds, without families and friends and human LIVES….   This is really bothering me…  I had a friend many years ago who told me that in the Marine’s in boot camp they were taught to "de-humanize" this way, in preparation for killing in war…. Help me here?  This is insane.   no?

– "We either make ourselves miserable or make ourselves strong. The amount of work is the same." Don Juan – Journey to Xtlan

Response:

<snip I would like to know exactly what was in the mind of terrorists lately, too.   How can a human kill other humans like this?  All i can figure is they had to have an ability to "de-humanize" all those thousands of ppl and look at them as specks, like ants, without souls, without minds, without families and friends and human LIVES….   This is really bothering me…  I had a friend many years ago who told me that in the Marine’s in boot camp they were taught to "de-humanize" this way, in preparation for killing in war…. Help me here?  This is insane.   no?

Remember, insanity is defined by society at large… what is abnormal here might not be abnormal in another culture. From what I’ve read, the bin Laden crowd excludes people demonstrating what they consider insanity to be … they want intelligent, level-headed people who can carry out their missions.   The dancing, singing masses you see on TV do not represent the terrorists the world faces … It appears bin Laden is some kind of spiritual leader with a huge following.  It is said he does not micromanage specific operations; he is more of a figurhead.   Taking him out will not affect future threats… if anything, he will be elevated to some kind of martyr status. I do not think anyone raised with the notions of tolerance, diversity and trying to get along can ever understand people who view those ideas to be weaknesses to be exploited. It is so sad to say it but I doubt there ever can be peace between Israel and the Palenstinians … two totally different mindsets, both sides being filled with hatred for the other.   At one time I believed rational people could compromise to find common ground … I no longer think that is possible. By the way, bin Laden has declared war on everyone who does not accept his religious views … the US and Israel are not the only countries at risk. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binladen/who/interview…. Thana

Response:

Help me here?  This is insane.   no?

no.  They are inhumans programmed like robots.

Response:

It’s what I call insane but the terrorists aren’t asking me. Karen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I keep wondering about something.   When someone does something horrible that we don’t understand, I have this desire to try to get inside their head and see what made them do it.  That does NOT mean i condone what they did or think there’s any excuse for it.  It just means that i would like to, rather than go on, "why why why?", try to find out what THEIR perceptions were when they did whatever it was they did. To me, it seems like a possible way to try to prevent something from happening again elsewhere. Like here in ASD.  When someone goes "why why why" did their ex cheat/leave. But do they REALLY want to know what was going on in their ex’s head when he/she did this, or are they just going "why why why"?  It doesn’t JUSTIFY it, but it sure could help prevent it from happening in the future with another person, or at least point to the signs.  To at least TRY to figure out why this person felt that they had to do the bad thing that they did.  THEN punish them – after getting some valuable information first! I would like to know exactly what was in the mind of terrorists lately, too.   How can a human kill other humans like this?  All i can figure is they had to have an ability to "de-humanize" all those thousands of ppl and look at them as specks, like ants, without souls, without minds, without families and friends and human LIVES….   This is really bothering me…  I had a friend many years ago who told me that in the Marine’s in boot camp they were taught to "de-humanize" this way, in preparation for killing in war…. Help me here?  This is insane.   no?

Response:

I keep wondering about something.   When someone does something horrible that we don’t understand, I have this desire to try to get inside their head and see what made them do it.  That does NOT mean i condone what they did or think there’s any excuse for it.  It just means that i would like to, rather than go on, "why why why?", try to find out what THEIR perceptions were when they did whatever it was they did. To me, it seems like a possible way to try to prevent something from happening again elsewhere. Like here in ASD.  When someone goes "why why why" did their ex cheat/leave. But do they REALLY want to know what was going on in their ex’s head when he/she did this, or are they just going "why why why"?  It doesn’t JUSTIFY it, but it sure could help prevent it from happening in the future with another person, or at least point to the signs.  To at least TRY to figure out why this person felt that they had to do the bad thing that they did.  THEN punish them – after getting some valuable information first! I would like to know exactly what was in the mind of terrorists lately, too.   How can a human kill other humans like this?  All i can figure is they had to have an ability to "de-humanize" all those thousands of ppl and look at them as specks, like ants, without souls, without minds, without families and friends and human LIVES….   This is really bothering me…  I had a friend many years ago who told me that in the Marine’s in boot camp they were taught to "de-humanize" this way, in preparation for killing in war…. Help me here?  This is insane.   no?

Response:

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