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Logbook entries.

Question:

I can’t for the life of me figure out where in CFI training people get told they must fit it all on one line. I used to fill up as many as necessary with my students, logbooks are cheap! Besides, when you’re 85 and want to look back on it all, you won’t be able to read it! As training progresses the entries usually get smaller anyway!

85!  I was much younger when I started flight training and even then I couldn’t read much of what they put on one line.  Even with a magnifying glass, much of it was undecipherable. Any more, I log the necessities.  I.E.  Currency, Biennual, VOR checks,  but I do it in a little notebook in the glove compartment….  At a glance I know what I need to know. Yes, I still keep a log, but it is based strictly on tac time.  I put it on the computer which calculates  a number of items such as TT, Time in make and model, time in regular, time in high performance/complex, approaches, time in actual….Landings (day and night).  Then I do write it in a log book as it’s actually easier to take a couple of lines and write in comments…. Writting in a couple of extra lines in an Excel spreadsheet which has formulas in a number of cells means entering place holders (zeros in most instances) — Roger (K8RI EN73) WWW.RogerHalstead.com N833R, World’s Oldest Debonair? S#CD-2 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Regards Russ Longdon I insisted we needed to log everything we did during the lesson, even if we had to use two lines (which he thought would look "messy") I tried to loan my CFI a pen once, but he declined and went to get the one out of his kneeboard.  His explanation:  the only way he could fit 3-4 lines of text in a single standard Jepp logbook flight description box was with an ultra-fine point ballpoint!  He usually stuck to 3, but he managed 4 at least once.  He did have to sign it and put his CFI# over in the user-defined hour columns a few times. — Ben Jackson http://www.ben.com/

Response:

I just started my instrument training, and after my first lesson my instructor wanted to put in my log book " Jepp lesson number 1".  I insisted we needed to log everything we did during the lesson, even if we had to use two lines (which he thought would look "messy").  Well he did as I wanted, but I figured I would post and ask if anyone knew if it was allowable to just write the syllabus lesson completed.  At any rate, I’m going to log exactly what is done during the lesson whether he likes it or not.

Response:

Ask him if he has ever participated in a deposition, with an attorney questioning every mark in the log unless it was spelled out in excruciating detail. There is no such thing as too much information in a logbook. My approach to logging, as well as other aviation-related decisions, became "how will this look/sound at the inquest?" as I became more experienced. Bob Gardner

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just started my instrument training, and after my first lesson my instructor wanted to put in my log book " Jepp lesson number 1".  I insisted we needed to log everything we did during the lesson, even if we had to use two lines (which he thought would look "messy").  Well he did as I wanted, but I figured I would post and ask if anyone knew if it was allowable to just write the syllabus lesson completed.  At any rate, I’m going to log exactly what is done during the lesson whether he likes it or not.

Response:

I just started my instrument training, and after my first lesson my instructor wanted to put in my log book " Jepp lesson number 1".  I insisted we needed to log everything we did during the lesson, even if we had to use two lines (which he thought would look "messy").

I can’t think of any regulation which says what you should or shouldn’t put in the Remarks column of a logbook entry.  Pretty much all you’re required to do is keep a "reliable record", and log things that you need to prove currency or requirements for ratings.  Beyond that, you’re on your own. At any rate, I’m going to log exactly what is done during the lesson whether he likes it or not.

Absolutely.  It’s your logbook, not your instructor’s.  Feel free to log as much or as little detail as you want.  As long as you’re not making stuff up, your instructor should have no reason to object. — Roy Smith, CFI-ASE-IA

Response:

I insisted we needed to log everything we did during the lesson, even if we had to use two lines (which he thought would look "messy")

I tried to loan my CFI a pen once, but he declined and went to get the one out of his kneeboard.  His explanation:  the only way he could fit 3-4 lines of text in a single standard Jepp logbook flight description box was with an ultra-fine point ballpoint!  He usually stuck to 3, but he managed 4 at least once.  He did have to sign it and put his CFI# over in the user-defined hour columns a few times. — Ben Jackson http://www.ben.com/

Response:

You need to demonstrate that the ground and flight instruction requirements of 14CFR61 have been met.  "Jepp 1", while legal, may not be too informative in a couple of years when the Jepp curriculum changes.  Is this a 141 school, by any chance? I usually write 3 lines in the little box, sign my name somewhere convenient in the same row, and log ground instruction somewhere in the back of the logbook, too. Jim Wolper ATP/PhD/CFII/CA Author, Understanding Mathematics for Aircraft Navigation – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just started my instrument training, and after my first lesson my instructor wanted to put in my log book " Jepp lesson number 1".  I insisted we needed to log everything [...]

Response:

It’s a Part 61, but we’re following the Jepp syllabus.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You need to demonstrate that the ground and flight instruction requirements of 14CFR61 have been met.  "Jepp 1", while legal, may not be too informative in a couple of years when the Jepp curriculum changes.  Is this a 141 school, by any chance? I usually write 3 lines in the little box, sign my name somewhere convenient in the same row, and log ground instruction somewhere in the back of the logbook, too. Jim Wolper ATP/PhD/CFII/CA Author, Understanding Mathematics for Aircraft Navigation I just started my instrument training, and after my first lesson my instructor wanted to put in my log book " Jepp lesson number 1".  I insisted we needed to log everything [...]

Response:

Your instructor has no dominion over your logbook and has no business whatsoever in how you describe what you log. The instructor need only sign for the dual given, and anything else is not his business., – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just started my instrument training, and after my first lesson my instructor wanted to put in my log book " Jepp lesson number 1".  I insisted we needed to log everything we did during the lesson, even if we had to use two lines (which he thought would look "messy").  Well he did as I wanted, but I figured I would post and ask if anyone knew if it was allowable to just write the syllabus lesson completed.  At any rate, I’m going to log exactly what is done during the lesson whether he likes it or not.

Response:

I can’t for the life of me figure out where in CFI training people get told they must fit it all on one line. I used to fill up as many as necessary with my students, logbooks are cheap! Besides, when you’re 85 and want to look back on it all, you won’t be able to read it! As training progresses the entries usually get smaller anyway! Regards Russ Longdon – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I insisted we needed to log everything we did during the lesson, even if we had to use two lines (which he thought would look "messy") I tried to loan my CFI a pen once, but he declined and went to get the one out of his kneeboard.  His explanation:  the only way he could fit 3-4 lines of text in a single standard Jepp logbook flight description box was with an ultra-fine point ballpoint!  He usually stuck to 3, but he managed 4 at least once.  He did have to sign it and put his CFI# over in the user-defined hour columns a few times. — Ben Jackson http://www.ben.com/

Response:

My CFII often use 2 or 3 lines… If you are not happy with what your CFII has written add to her remarks. Make sure that your explanation covers the relevant areas of training covered as required by the FARs for the IR. That is what the examiner will look for before the test ride. Ben

I just started my instrument training, and after my first lesson my instructor wanted to put in my log book " Jepp lesson number 1".  I insisted we needed to log everything we did during the lesson, even if we had to use two lines (which he thought would look "messy").  Well he did as I wanted, but I figured I would post and ask if anyone knew if it was allowable to just write the syllabus lesson completed.  At any rate, I’m going to log exactly what is done during the lesson whether he likes it or not.

— Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

My instructor for my Private Pilot entered "Jepp Lesson 1complete" and my Instrument Instructor enters "Jepp …" and a brief description of the lesson.  I have now stored my Jepp Private Pilot Syllabus in a safe place (along with a copy of my log book) so I can refer back to it at a later. Also, even with the description written, I will hold onto my Instrument syllabus. As people stated, its your log book …do what works for you.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just started my instrument training, and after my first lesson my instructor wanted to put in my log book " Jepp lesson number 1".  I insisted we needed to log everything we did during the lesson, even if we had to use two lines (which he thought would look "messy").  Well he did as I wanted, but I figured I would post and ask if anyone knew if it was allowable to just write the syllabus lesson completed.  At any rate, I’m going to log exactly what is done during the lesson whether he likes it or not.

Response:

It’s fairly common (hardly the majority) to do this (Jepp Lesson #). There’s nothing in the FAR that says that the description cannot refer to some document outside the logbook itself. Good idea to keep the document, though. – Mark Kolber APA, Denver, Colorado www.midlifeflight.com       email? replace "spamaway" with "mkolber

Response:

My approach to logging, as well as other aviation-related decisions, became "how will this look/sound at the inquest?" as I became more experienced.

No doubt there are many reasons to keep a detailed log… but to establish a legal defense?   I wonder what percentage of people on this group have ever been deposed related to a flight. In particular I wonder who was ever deposed related to a flight which was already logged (i.e. a flight with no incident where one filled out the log thereafter).  If you are talking about proving legal currency, that does not take lots of detail to do. About the only main exception to this I can think of would be a pilot acting as a flight instructor.   But even there, how many examples can you give of pilots who were sued as a result of their instructional activity other than with an actual incident while the instructor is on-board?   Among other things, the very low cost of flight instruction insurance is a good indicator that this sort of lawsuit is very rare, definitely not something to get neurotic about. Document because it helps a student in some way, not because of legal paranoia.  And if you do get into an accident/incident, then you will be sued no matter what you documented and the outcome will no doubt have more to do with your net worth than with what you documented in your logs. — Richard Kaplan, CFII www.umprc.com/p210

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My approach to logging, as well as other aviation-related decisions, became "how will this look/sound at the inquest?" as I became more experienced. No doubt there are many reasons to keep a detailed log… but to establish a legal defense?   I wonder what percentage of people on this group have ever been deposed related to a flight. In particular I wonder who was ever deposed related to a flight which was already logged (i.e. a flight with no incident where one filled out the log thereafter).  If you are talking about proving legal currency, that does not take lots of detail to do. About the only main exception to this I can think of would be a pilot acting as a flight instructor.   But even there, how many examples can you give of pilots who were sued as a result of their instructional activity other than with an actual incident while the instructor is on-board?   Among other things, the very low cost of flight instruction insurance is a good indicator that this sort of lawsuit is very rare, definitely not something to get neurotic about. Document because it helps a student in some way, not because of legal paranoia.  And if you do get into an accident/incident, then you will be sued no matter what you documented and the outcome will no doubt have more to do with your net worth than with what you documented in your logs.

Not I, but after reading this one, http://www.avweb.com/articles/faavsair.html I’m planning on being extra paranoid.  Though, as Mr. Busch put it so succinctly, if the FAA wants your certificate, they will get it. — Mike O’Malley –==[o]==–/ school: (xxx)390-4142 AIM id omalmi "You can land anywhere…  ONCE" "You can only TIE the record for flying low"

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