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Logging PIC vs Acting PIC explained

Question:

It all seems clear to me now. But the funny thing is, I phoned the local FSDO office to clarify these, and the guy said the complete opposite of all these. He did not understand the difference between logging and acting as PIC. He said that I may not log PIC if I am not qualified to fly under those conditions. Very strange, since after reading the relevant FAR parts over and over again I am convinced I am right.

Most FSDO’s truly want to be helpful, but with today’s cutbacks most of them spend their time on Part 131/121 policy matters and probably have never read most of the FAR’s that affect us.  [When's the last time *you* boarded an American 747 and noticed that the captain was under the hood?" <G]   Unfortunately, that means that many of them don’t even know what they don’t know.  In any event, an answer from a FSDO on a question like this is like the IRS helpline.  It *might* be helpful, but if it is wrong the FAA will not stand behind it.  To get an answer that is legally binding you have to write to the Chief Counsel’s office in DC.                                         jmk

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It all seems clear to me now. But the funny thing is, I phoned the local FSDO office to clarify these, and the guy said the complete opposite of all these. He did not understand the difference between logging and acting as PIC. He said that I may not log PIC if I am not qualified to fly under those conditions. Very strange, since after reading the relevant FAR parts over and over again I am convinced I am right. Most FSDO’s truly want to be helpful, but with today’s cutbacks most of them spend their time on Part 131/121 policy matters and probably have never read most of the FAR’s that affect us.  [When's the last time *you* boarded an American 747 and noticed that the captain was under the hood?" <G] Unfortunately, that means that many of them don’t even know what they don’t know.  In any event, an answer from a FSDO on a question like this is like the IRS helpline.  It *might* be helpful, but if it is wrong the FAA will not stand behind it.  To get an answer that is legally binding you have to write to the Chief Counsel’s office in DC.                                         jmk

I think the simplest way to resolve your debate is to read the FARs and not try to interpret them to what makes sense. There is a difference in the civil community between logging PIC time and being the actual PIC. Matt Dossey

Response:

as i said in other posts and I think thats what the FSDO was trying to say.That  a person that has a, and I quote, "NIGHT FLYING PROHIBITED" LIMITATION, that persons PPL is limited to day flight and  not valid at night. Therefore the person is not a "recreational, private, or commercial pilot" as required by 61.51at night.61.51 so since he is not a private pilot at night he cannot log it as PIC. acting or sole manipulator. the point is not acting vs sole manipulator of the controls its that the person has not met the requirments of the PTS and regs for night flight, therefore  their pilot certificate is only valid for day flight. At night they are not a private pilot.

So what are they ? Since they don’t have a Student Pilot certificate they can’t be a student either! Also, all VFR pilots have a "IFR Flying Prohibited" implied in their license. Yet they can log PIC on a IFR dual flight. I don’t see any difference between this and the night flying situation. Actually the person I spoke to at the FSDO said that I cannot even log PIC on an IFR flight because I am not rated for IFR. What a load of crock! We all know that is not true. If you read 61.51(c) carefully, you will see that it says that "a Private Pilot or Commercial Pilot may log PIC when he is the sole manipulator of the controls in an aircraft for which he is rated". It does not say that he has to be rated for the conditions of the flight (IFR, Night). It does not even mention anything about restrictions.

Response:

as i said in other posts and I think thats what the FSDO was trying to say.That  a person that has a, and I quote, "NIGHT FLYING PROHIBITED" LIMITATION, that persons PPL is limited to day flight and  not valid at night. Therefore the person is not a "recreational, private, or commercial pilot" as required by 61.51at night.61.51 so since he is not a private pilot at night he cannot log it as PIC. acting or sole manipulator.

A Private Pilot is someone who holds a Private Pilot’s License. The only thing that will make you no longer a Private Pilot is if you have your Private Pilot License rescinded. A limitation (whether on the certificate, or in the regulations) is just that. It says when you may or may not act as Pilot In Command. It says nothing about anything else.

Response:

I phoned the local FSDO office to clarify these, and the guy said the complete opposite of all these.  He did not understand the difference between logging and acting as PIC.

What’s so strange?  You spoke to a government employee who didn’t understand the regulations whose job it is to enforce, but was perfectly willing to answer your question without worrying if the answer was correct or not.  And you find that strange?  You obviously havn’t been around government workers long enough :-) — New York University School of Medicine Copyright 1997 Roy Smith For-profit redistribution prohibited

Response:

as i said in other posts and I think thats what the FSDO was trying to say.That  a person that has a, and I quote, "NIGHT FLYING PROHIBITED" LIMITATION, that persons PPL is limited to day flight and  not valid at night. Therefore the person is not a "recreational, private, or commercial pilot" as required by 61.51at night.61.51 so since he is not a private pilot at night he cannot log it as PIC. acting or sole manipulator. the point is not acting vs sole manipulator of the controls its that the person has not met the requirments of the PTS and regs for night flight, therefore  their pilot certificate is only valid for day flight. At night they are not a private pilot. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I posted a query earlier on if a private pilot not rated for night flying can log PIC on night dual instruction flights. The overwhelming response was, yes the pilot may log that as PIC. This is what the FAR 61.51 has to say: "A private or commercial pilot may log as pilot-in-command time that flight time when the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated". The above interpretation is based on the following important concepts: (1) *Logging* PIC time is difference from *acting* as PIC. (2) A Private Pilot may *log* PIC time under all conditions if he is rated     for that aircraft category and type. For example, if his certificate     says "Airplane Single Engine Land" then he may *log* as PIC for all     flights done in a single engine land airplane. Note that there is no     mention of the conditions under which the flight is conducted, ie, IMC,     night, hood, BFR etc.. However, he may not *act* as PIC if he is not     qualified to fly under these conditions.     For example, a VFR pilot can fly with an instructor under IMC and still     *log* that time as PIC, while the instructor *acts* as PIC. In another     example, say that my BFR has expired. That prevents me from *acting* as     PIC, but does not prevent me from *logging* as PIC during the BFR ride.     Look at what FAR 61.57 says (and the mention of the word "act"): "no person may act as pilot in command of an aircraft unless, since the beginning of the 24th calendar month before the month in which that pilot acts as pilot in command, that person has accomplished a flight review"     So, while 61.51 allows me to *log* PIC on my BFR ride, 61.57 prevents     me from *acting* as PIC during my BFR ride.     The same hold true for night flying. If my pilots certificate restricts     night flying, I may fly with an instructor and still *log* that as PIC,     but you I not *act* as PIC unless I have that restriction removed. It all seems clear to me now. But the funny thing is, I phoned the local FSDO office to clarify these, and the guy said the complete opposite of all these. He did not understand the difference between logging and acting as PIC. He said that I may not log PIC if I am not qualified to fly under those conditions. Very strange, since after reading the relevant FAR parts over and over again I am convinced I am right.

Response:

I posted a query earlier on if a private pilot not rated for night flying can log PIC on night dual instruction flights. The overwhelming response was, yes the pilot may log that as PIC. This is what the FAR 61.51 has to say: "A private or commercial pilot may log as pilot-in-command time that flight time when the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated". The above interpretation is based on the following important concepts: (1) *Logging* PIC time is difference from *acting* as PIC. (2) A Private Pilot may *log* PIC time under all conditions if he is rated     for that aircraft category and type. For example, if his certificate     says "Airplane Single Engine Land" then he may *log* as PIC for all     flights done in a single engine land airplane. Note that there is no     mention of the conditions under which the flight is conducted, ie, IMC,     night, hood, BFR etc.. However, he may not *act* as PIC if he is not     qualified to fly under these conditions.     For example, a VFR pilot can fly with an instructor under IMC and still     *log* that time as PIC, while the instructor *acts* as PIC. In another     example, say that my BFR has expired. That prevents me from *acting* as     PIC, but does not prevent me from *logging* as PIC during the BFR ride.     Look at what FAR 61.57 says (and the mention of the word "act"): "no person may act as pilot in command of an aircraft unless, since the beginning of the 24th calendar month before the month in which that pilot acts as pilot in command, that person has accomplished a flight review"     So, while 61.51 allows me to *log* PIC on my BFR ride, 61.57 prevents     me from *acting* as PIC during my BFR ride.     The same hold true for night flying. If my pilots certificate restricts     night flying, I may fly with an instructor and still *log* that as PIC,     but you I not *act* as PIC unless I have that restriction removed. It all seems clear to me now. But the funny thing is, I phoned the local FSDO office to clarify these, and the guy said the complete opposite of all these. He did not understand the difference between logging and acting as PIC. He said that I may not log PIC if I am not qualified to fly under those conditions. Very strange, since after reading the relevant FAR parts over and over again I am convinced I am right.

Response:

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