Act Acting » Acting School » Making Lantus – no beef involved

Making Lantus – no beef involved

Question:

WillBill, It will be apparent to even a casual observer that you have an abundant interest in the E. coli in insulin manufacturing issue. Sorry you take things so personally.

geez doc, this sly answer is more like what i’ve come to expect from you.  :( iow, i doubt that you are "sorry" I finally got a definitive answer from a company, and I posted it.

geez doc, *no* *one* has suggested that beef product is used in producing Lantus.   **NO** **ONE** i thought that that was laid to rest 12 months ago! Case closed.

right.  :( how convenient for you.  you did another sly put- down of beef insulin, and now it’s "case closed"  :(  :(  :(  :(  :( William C Biggs MD

ya know doc, in that thread 12 months ago, you made a promise to me (see p.s. below) i’d like you to *keep* *that* *promise* thank you.  :) bill t1 since ‘57, ex 8-yr pumper, beef-L 1x, simple MDI p.s. here are the revised questions that i’d like you to ask Lilly: 1. how *recently* did Lilly switch away from    feeding the e-coli with beef product? 2. did the FDA play a part in this switch?  iow,    did the FDA take the initiative in forcing    Lilly to make the change? ====== using www.google.com/advanced_group_search?hl=en for the 21 posts in the Apr 2001 thread "BMJ Article Today on nvCJD and BSE" i posted this to doc biggs on Apr 9, 2001   << "doc,    have you ever point-blank asked Lilly?    with all due respect, Lilly isn’t going to    advertise that they feed the e-coli with beef    broth.  after all, it goes against the "high tech"    image that they want to present about their rDNA    synthetic insulin.  fwiw, i’ve also never seen    them use the word synthetic.    and don’t get them in a lather by asking about    mad cow.    keep the question as broad and straight-arrow    as possible.  just ask them this:    "do you (i.e. Lilly) use *any* beef product    in producing your Humulin insulins?"        " and that same evening of Apr 9, 2001, doc biggs responded with these initial words:   << "OK, I’ll ask them,  …"

Response:

Enough is enough. Into the killfile with you. <PLONK

Response:

WillBill, It will be apparent to even a casual observer that you have an abundant interest in the E. coli in insulin manufacturing issue. Sorry you take things so personally. I finally got a definitive answer from a company, and I posted it. Case closed. William C Biggs MD

Response:

If you or Doc Biggs said it was Tofu, I’d believe you salesmen more, than if it were the the ‘pablum’ explanation of ‘glucose solution’. Let’s face it, he talked down to us. He talked in language that a lay person could understand.  

actually, the doc *slyly* **lied** to us, both directly and indirectly directly coz no one (this includes *me*) has suggested that beef product is used in producing Lantus insulin indirectly coz why did he feel the need to do yet another "beef" putdown? at least that’s exactly what it looks like to me. either the doc’s losin’ it or his baiting skills are tarnished <snip He said pretty much the same thing that Bill V.A. said:.

<snip let’s stay on the general topic of beef product being used *recently* for rDNA insulin(s) by Lilly (see next comments, below) Are you saying that this is not the best media?  If so, what is?   And where did this information about "beef broth" originate?

several different sources.  enough to very strongly suggest that Lilly was using beef until very recently the most recent source (12 months ago) was van antwerp himself in thread: "BMJ Article Today on nvCJD and BSE" as an aside, it’s mildly humorous to compare van antwerp’s current/cautious posting (in this thread) with his more up-front 2 posts on 4/11 & 4/12/2001 (see p.s. below) biggs posted 6x in that thread, so chances are he saw van antwerp’s 2 posts to me.  but don’t take my word, pull it up on: www.google.com/advanced_group_search?hl=en so nas hit the nail on the head: 1. biggs talked down to us 2. big pharma isn’t going to share shit with us    *or* with *biggs*, other than the normal sales b.s.    for their new product(s).  you know, stuff like    Lantus and Rezulin it doesn’t puzzle me that the diabetics on this newgroup are inclined to jump at playing guinea pig for big pharma as they finish their field testing of new products that’s a given coz i expect most diabetics here to be very hi-tech oriented and firm believers in "new(er) = better" what i find puzzling is that older docs, like biggs, tend to keep conveniently being so surprised when a new drug like Rezulin comes up short with problems after being out on the open market for a small amount of time to my view, the gung ho diabetics here will do plenty of cheerful posting on the new stuff without us needing any wacko crusader stuff from a professional.  :) bill t1 since ‘57, ex 8-yr pumper, beef-L 1x, simple MDI p.s. in Apr/2001 thread "BMJ Article Today on nvCJD and BSE" willbill wrote (to doc biggs): isn’t it true that Lilly uses beef product in producing their synthetic insulins? bill p.s. if you talk to Lilly/Novo, i suggest you keep it to this simple question: Q: Do you (Lilly/Novo) use any beef product in producing    your synthetic insulin? I am a little surprised to see that I have disappeared, but I was traveling extensively for a while and I guess that now I am back.  As far as I know, Lilly used to use beef derived glycerin in their insulin products, however they do not use it anymore, precisely because of the BSE issues.   [ in Apr/2001 thread "BMJ Article Today on nvCJD and BSE" [ [ [ thank you for the straight answer. [ [ i’ll stop saying that Lilly’s rDNA may have some [ mad cow risk. [ [ do you know some of the specifics on this change? [ [ e.g. how much of a "reapproval" did Lilly have to go thru [ in order to switch away from the beef derived glycerin? [ [ am i safe in assuming that it cost Lilly some big buck$ [ to do this? [ [ [ bill t1 since ‘57, ex 8-yr pumper, beef-L 1x, simple MDI [ [ [ I know that in our formulations for insulin (pre-filled [ cartridges, now in clinical trials) we use synthetic [ glycerin and we use no beef or pork derived products. [ [ I certainly don’t know the answers to the regulatory pain, [ but probably they had to re-validate the chemical stability [ of the insulin formulations (there are a lot of them).   [ Synthetic glycerin is comparably priced to natural derived [ glycerin of comparable purity, I have no direct experience [ of course, our insulin formulations fortunately started out [ with the synthetic material.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – WilliBill, Can you provide some documentation on FDA required changes in culture media, or are you propagating a rumor?   It’s impossible to tell from what you’ve provided so far. Sorry that you’re taking these comments personally. I thought you & the group would be interested in the outcome of my inquiry. Cheers, William C Biggs, MD Doc, the question to ask is:   how *recently* did the FDA weasels force   those even lower Lilly weasels to finally   switch away from feeding the e-coli (i.e.   rDNA Humulin insulin) with beef product? bill

Dr. Briggs, There are lots of us who appreciate both your efforts and information, but don’t take the time to respond to every fringe message. If some folks believe that there is a conspiracy under every rock, that is their privilege. Others of us look at what the history of a poster is, and base our ‘rating’ acceptance upon that history. Yours is very high in my book. LES UNGERLEIDER

Response:

If you or Doc Biggs said it was Tofu, I’d believe you salesmen more, than if it were the the ‘pablum’ explanation of ‘glucose solution’. Let’s face it, he talked down to us.

He talked in language that a lay person could understand.  Not everyone has your vast knowledge of microbiology.   (Maybe you would be kind enough to refresh everyone’s memory as to what your credentials are.) He said pretty much the same thing that Bill V.A. said:."one of the best media to grow e-coli in is minimal essential media (See U.S. patent 5,268,453 ) where the e-coli are grown in broth that contains only free amino acids, lots of glucose and some salts." Are you saying that this is not the best media?  If so, what is?  And where did this information about "beef broth" originate? — Marilyn

Response:

WilliBill, Can you provide some documentation on FDA required changes in culture media, or are you propagating a rumor?   It’s impossible to tell from what you’ve provided so far. Sorry that you’re taking these comments personally. I thought you & the group would be interested in the outcome of my inquiry. Cheers, William C Biggs, MD

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Doc, the question to ask is:   how *recently* did the FDA weasels force   those even lower Lilly weasels to finally   switch away from feeding the e-coli (i.e.   rDNA Humulin insulin) with beef product? bill

Response:

  is not your right. Actually Guy, I’d say it WAS his right to have (or come up with) strong opinions, even if they affect others people. Don’t people have a right to know what goes into the stuff they use? Isn’t this the place to discover and discuss these points? Beav Should have said–preconceived opinions derived without facts.

Opinions are rarley basecd on fact though. When it’s a proven fact, it no longer IS an opinion in fact. Opinions are ok if they are properly qualified.  Not represented as dogmatic facts

Ahh, but we’ve just seen a guy posting articles on here which were BLATENT representations of "fact" du to the fact that he didn’t qualify (or comment) on the posted material. Seems I was the only one who noticed that though.  I am afraid I might induce someone to do something that would do harm.

What, like eating rice bran to lower blood sugars. That sort of thing? I dind’t see anyone jumping up and down saying what bullcrap THAT was. Facts on this NG are few and far between and only used when it suits. How do you establish the real fact?  We try very hard.  Many processes are restricted so as not supply competitors with help. IN the business where  I worked, some of the data was worth many millions.  You try to let your competition pay for the same mistakes. Not let them learn free from you.

In this business, mistakes cost many LIVES and the end user of "the competitions product" (which you could be using) could well be yourself. A little "sharing" might help reduce some of the complications and lengthen some of the lives. Beav

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The preconceived ideas which we all have are of no benefit to the treatment of disease. You’re right Guy, we need to investigate and question ALL aspects of this disease and its treatments. Even at my age I am able to accept valid data when it is presented in good faith. We need some real familiarity with the processes involved in the production of our favorite product. I find that a strange comment given what you say further down Guy. I have found by running exact unbiased test that some things presented so often are just to try to win an argument. This not the method os scientific investigation. I know of several people that are adamant that the world is flat. If you prefer Beef insulin it is your right. To come up with strong opinions that might effect other people is not your right. Actually Guy, I’d say it WAS his right to have (or come up with) strong opinions, even if they affect others people. Don’t people have a right to know what goes into the stuff they use? Isn’t this the place to discover and discuss these points? Beav

Should have said–preconceived opinions derived without facts. Opinions are ok if they are properly qualified.  Not represented as dogmatic facts  I am afraid I might induce someone to do something that would do harm. How do you establish the real fact?  We try very hard.  Many processes are restricted so as not supply competitors with help. IN the business where  I worked, some of the data was worth many millions.  You try to let your competition pay for the same mistakes. Not let them learn free from you.                                                     Guy

Response:

The preconceived ideas which we all have are of no benefit to the treatment of disease.

You’re right Guy, we need to investigate and question ALL aspects of this disease and its treatments. Even at my age I am able to accept valid data when it is presented in good faith. We need some real familiarity with the processes involved in the production of our favorite product.

I find that a strange comment given what you say further down Guy. I have found by running exact unbiased test that some things presented so often are just to try to win an argument. This not the method os scientific investigation. I know of several people that are adamant that the world is flat. If you prefer Beef insulin it is your right. To come up with strong opinions that might effect other people is not your right.

Actually Guy, I’d say it WAS his right to have (or come up with) strong opinions, even if they affect others people. Don’t people have a right to know what goes into the stuff they use? Isn’t this the place to discover and discuss these points? Beav

Response:

What is the big deal?  Use animal insulin if you want. Lilly will make the products they want. Any one who twists the facts to suit their own beliefs is making a mistake. I quit using Beef insulin because it gave me the "flu". That was years ago. I can’t and don’t want to use it. Some people here think it solves  their problems.  There are immunity factors  that may be an issue here. No need to trash Lantus unless you have real facts. I will watch Lantus because it is new. But I sure like the lower blood sugars and a night’s sleep. Recently i discarded a couple of bottles of Ultra Lente.  I regarded it as crap but that only my opinion.  You may find it to be very good. Live and let live. With my elementary knowledge I don’t know how this relates to Mad Cow disease. In the past I have worked with some of the scientist and they are not idiots.  They are very aware of these issues and dealing with them.

Response:

I didn’t start this. I made no assertion about beef or whatever protein media is used in this brew. Glucose is not a media for e-coli or any bacteria.  This is a gene-spliced bacterial product, that does not have a human amino acid count for protein. Doc gave us a bunch of pablum. We deserve better, and I don’t for a second believe that Aventis or any piece of Big Pharma, would share shit with us about their process. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have to plead ignorance with respect to the previous biochemical assessments.   On the other hand, I am tremendously impressed and helped by Lantus, and don’t want to rock the "Lantus boat" unless there is a compelling reason to do so, and I’ve heard none.  I suggest we all profit by abandoning this thread and diverting our attention to matters over which we might have some control or impact. Charles Evans

Response:

Marilyn, I did ask the Lilly people too.  And I initially got the same type of response, something like "surely you are kidding".

Unfortunately I haven’t heard back from them yet. <snip …told me immediately that "we don’t think   that beef is used in any way" but they weren’t absolutely sure because nobody had ever asked before.

So I asked them to be absolutely sure. I’ll bet it isn’t a top priority to investigate, because some wacky doc in Texas happened to ask.

Doc, Have you been able to confirm that beef "broth" is used in the manufacturing of Humulin?

<snip doc, while i’d not argue against you being a wacko crusader ( ;) ), fact is, i think you must be pretty gullible, huh?   (see underlines, above) you bored out there in the ‘rillo flats?  ;) can’t be as bad as cabin fever.  :) btw doc, both you and ms mar have asked the wrong question the question to ask is:   how *recently* did the FDA weasels force   those even lower Lilly weasels to finally   switch away from feeding the e-coli (i.e.   rDNA Humulin insulin) with beef product? bill p.s. when you were in Indy for that guided tour, maybe you got distracted by all the shiny, hi-tech, stainless steel stuff? tsk, tsk, tsk…

Response:

It’s still protein, isn’t it?  21 amino acids for human protein, unlike Lantus. If you or Doc Biggs said it was Tofu, I’d believe you salesmen more, than if it were the the ‘pablum’ explanation of ‘glucose solution’. Let’s face it, he talked down to us.

I have to plead ignorance with respect to the previous biochemical assessments.   On the other hand, I am tremendously impressed and helped by Lantus, and don’t want to rock the "Lantus boat" unless there is a compelling reason to do so, and I’ve heard none.  I suggest we all profit by abandoning this thread and diverting our attention to matters over which we might have some control or impact. Charles Evans

Response:

It’s still protein, isn’t it?  21 amino acids for human protein, unlike Lantus. If you or Doc Biggs said it was Tofu, I’d believe you salesmen more, than if it were the the ‘pablum’ explanation of ‘glucose solution’. Let’s face it, he talked down to us. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Huh, what did I say about gelatin and beef?  I thought I said that one of the reasons that there was a reformulation of some insulin was due to glycerin (being in most insulin formulations) was originally made from beef sources, but now it is all synthetic.  As for beef heart or brain infusion being necessary for e-coli to grow, I don’t believe that it is required. For example, one of the best media to grow e-coli in is minimal essential media (See U.S. patent 5,268,453 ) where the e-coli are grown in broth that contains only free amino acids, lots of glucose and some salts.  No animal components at all. I don’t know how Lilly grows their e-coli for insulin production but certainly you can grow them in many types of media that contain no beef products at all. Bill

Response:

I just can’t believe that a physician can come out with baby talk to reassure this group.  This is as good as Van Antwerp saying it’s not beef but gelatin. If you have had a number of deep correspondences, come up with some better details. Microbioligists don’t culture bacteria in glucose. The colon will digest insulin. Urine is sterile.

Huh, what did I say about gelatin and beef?  I thought I said that one of the reasons that there was a reformulation of some insulin was due to glycerin (being in most insulin formulations) was originally made from beef sources, but now it is all synthetic.  As for beef heart or brain infusion being necessary for e-coli to grow, I don’t believe that it is required. For example, one of the best media to grow e-coli in is minimal essential media (See U.S. patent 5,268,453 ) where the e-coli are grown in broth that contains only free amino acids, lots of glucose and some salts.  No animal components at all. I don’t know how Lilly grows their e-coli for insulin production but certainly you can grow them in many types of media that contain no beef products at all. Bill

Response:

I just can’t believe that a physician can come out with baby talk to reassure this group.  This is as good as Van Antwerp saying it’s not beef but gelatin. If you have had a number of deep correspondences, come up with some better details. Microbioligists don’t culture bacteria in glucose. The colon will digest insulin. Urine is sterile. Like I said PABLUM! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – BNF, I’m just the messenger in this one. Don’t shoot me. It appears that neither beef, nor brains, are required for E. coli to grow. If you don’t believe me, ask your colon. And to think that E. coli will propagate in urine is a testament to it’s survival skills. Cheers, William C Biggs, MD

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ya know Doc Biggs you must think we’re going to believe this imaginative piece of pablum? You just told us that bacteria will propagate in glucose solution INSTEAD OF BRAIN HEART AGAR. Add a bit of scare tactic about nvCJD. Dr. Texas Sunshine needs to go back to the school of ’spits and shits’ (microbiology).

The preconceived ideas which we all have are of no benefit to the treatment of disease. Even at my age I am able to accept valid data when it is presented in good faith. We need some real familiarity with the processes involved in the production of our favorite product. I have found by running exact unbiased test that some things presented so often are just to try to win an argument. This not the method os scientific investigation. I know of several people that are adamant that the world is flat. If you prefer Beef insulin it is your right. To come up with strong opinions that might effect other people is not your right. I do support you right to use beef insulin provided you can afford to pay for it. Now how many enemies did I make. The stupid old bum again.                               Guy Williams

Response:

BNF, I’m just the messenger in this one. Don’t shoot me. It appears that neither beef, nor brains, are required for E. coli to grow. If you don’t believe me, ask your colon. And to think that E. coli will propagate in urine is a testament to it’s survival skills. Cheers, William C Biggs, MD – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ya know Doc Biggs you must think we’re going to believe this imaginative piece of pablum? You just told us that bacteria will propagate in glucose solution INSTEAD OF BRAIN HEART AGAR. Add a bit of scare tactic about nvCJD. Dr. Texas Sunshine needs to go back to the school of ’spits and shits’ (microbiology).

Response:

Marilyn, I did ask the Lilly people too.  And I initially got the same type of response , something like "surely you are kidding". Unfortunately I haven’t heard back from them yet. Both places told me immediately that "we don’t think that beef is used in any way" but they weren’t absolutely sure because nobody had ever asked before. So I asked them to be absolutely sure. I’ll bet it isn’t a top priority to investigate, because some wacky doc in Texas happened to ask. Aventis got back to me first, and that took about 9 – 10 months. I’ll keep asking the people at Lilly. I have a few contacts that I might run into at the AACE meetings in a couple weeks in Chicago. Cheers, William C Biggs MD

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – They use a solution that consists, ironically, mostly of glucose. There are no animal products used in the broth. BTW, the Lantus sold in the USA is made in the USA. So we can now sleep at night knowing that there is no chance of getting mad cow disease from Lantus. Doc, Have you been able to confirm that beef "broth" is used in the manufacturing of Humulin?  This information seems to have come from one source which is not quite the most trustworthy. Marilyn

Response:

Ya know Doc Biggs you must think we’re going to believe this imaginative piece of pablum?

However did you leak out of my killfile, Big Nascar Fan? Off to the digital dungeon with ye! PLONK!

Response:

Ya know Doc Biggs you must think we’re going to believe this imaginative piece of pablum? You just told us that bacteria will propagate in glucose solution INSTEAD OF BRAIN HEART AGAR. Add a bit of scare tactic about nvCJD. Dr. Texas Sunshine needs to go back to the school of ’spits and shits’ (microbiology). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To WillBill and the group: WillBill had questioned many months ago whether Lantus’ manufacturing process involved any beef products. This was part of a debate on the merits of long acting beef insulin made in England (with concern about mad cow disease) vs. analog insulins such as Lantus. WillBill had indicated that he thought the E. coli used to make Lantus insulin might be fed with beef broth, so there was some risk there too. I promised to ask the Aventis people, and I did.   They honestly thought I was a nut case at first, but I told them this was an valid question, and they promised me that they would look into it. A series of emails ensued, with some detours because of some personnel changes, but I finally got the answer today. They use a solution that consists, ironically, mostly of glucose. There are no animal products used in the broth. BTW, the Lantus sold in the USA is made in the USA. So we can now sleep at night knowing that there is no chance of getting mad cow disease from Lantus. Cheers, William C Biggs, MD

Response:

They use a solution that consists, ironically, mostly of glucose. There are no animal products used in the broth. BTW, the Lantus sold in the USA is made in the USA. So we can now sleep at night knowing that there is no chance of getting mad cow disease from Lantus.

Doc, Have you been able to confirm that beef "broth" is used in the manufacturing of Humulin?  This information seems to have come from one source which is not quite the most trustworthy. Marilyn

Response:

thanks for getting to the bottom of this…. good to know….. love the irony though — kate – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To WillBill and the group: WillBill had questioned many months ago whether Lantus’ manufacturing process involved any beef products. This was part of a debate on the merits of long acting beef insulin made in England (with concern about mad cow disease) vs. analog insulins such as Lantus. WillBill had indicated that he thought the E. coli used to make Lantus insulin might be fed with beef broth, so there was some risk there too. I promised to ask the Aventis people, and I did.   They honestly thought I was a nut case at first, but I told them this was an valid question, and they promised me that they would look into it. A series of emails ensued, with some detours because of some personnel changes, but I finally got the answer today. They use a solution that consists, ironically, mostly of glucose. There are no animal products used in the broth. BTW, the Lantus sold in the USA is made in the USA. So we can now sleep at night knowing that there is no chance of getting mad cow disease from Lantus. Cheers, William C Biggs, MD

Response:

To WillBill and the group: WillBill had questioned many months ago whether Lantus’ manufacturing process involved any beef products. This was part of a debate on the merits of long acting beef insulin made in England (with concern about mad cow disease) vs. analog insulins such as Lantus. WillBill had indicated that he thought the E. coli used to make Lantus insulin might be fed with beef broth, so there was some risk there too. I promised to ask the Aventis people, and I did.   They honestly thought I was a nut case at first, but I told them this was an valid question, and they promised me that they would look into it. A series of emails ensued, with some detours because of some personnel changes, but I finally got the answer today. They use a solution that consists, ironically, mostly of glucose. There are no animal products used in the broth. BTW, the Lantus sold in the USA is made in the USA. So we can now sleep at night knowing that there is no chance of getting mad cow disease from Lantus. Cheers, William C Biggs, MD

Response:

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