Act Acting » Acting School » OT humor for Abdi:Trouble in Paradise

OT humor for Abdi:Trouble in Paradise

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "> PARADISE-Sources inside Paradise are confirming reports that recruitment > > of virgins to reward mujihadeen fighting against the American infidels is > > in serious trouble.  At issue is the refusal of virgins to be seen with > > dirty stupid jerks who smell like dog vomit and cannot stop talking about > > how holy they are because they blew up a couple Iraqi school children. > > Also, too many virgins are getting wind of the rumors about mujihadeen > > pre-martyrdom sexual practices.  This problem coupled with the sheer > > numbers of martyrs entering Paradise lately threatens to derail the Jihad > > against the American Infidels. > > "I don’t want to be deflowered by some guy who’s last sexual act was with > > a boar hog," said one would-be reward virgin who spoke on condition of > > anonymity.  "Besides, everyone knows how boring these guys are in Paradise > > with their ‘I killed X-many babies’ and ‘oh you should have seen the look > > on that old woman’s face when she died’ all the time.  We all know > > ninety-nine point nine percent of them were just idiots who shot at US > > soldiers and marines." > > In an emergency move, Paradise officials are considering drafting crack > > whores and farm animals if they cannot come up with seventy-two actual > > virgins for each martyr. > > Developing…

Response:

You listen to Rush Limbaugh to much, he is just a druggie. Check this and you will be educated http://www.strike-the-root.com/4/hambidge/hambidge2.html try this http://www.google.com/search?q=cognitive+dissonance Just say no to druggies. "CW" <c…@optonline.net> wrote in message

news:x2Cjc.13609$Gd3.3380660@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > "> PARADISE-Sources inside Paradise are confirming reports that > recruitment > > > of virgins to reward mujihadeen fighting against the American infidels > is > > > in serious trouble.  At issue is the refusal of virgins to be seen with > > > dirty stupid jerks who smell like dog vomit and cannot stop talking > about > > > how holy they are because they blew up a couple Iraqi school children. > > > Also, too many virgins are getting wind of the rumors about mujihadeen > > > pre-martyrdom sexual practices.  This problem coupled with the sheer > > > numbers of martyrs entering Paradise lately threatens to derail the > Jihad > > > against the American Infidels. > > > "I don’t want to be deflowered by some guy who’s last sexual act was > with > > > a boar hog," said one would-be reward virgin who spoke on condition of > > > anonymity.  "Besides, everyone knows how boring these guys are in > Paradise > > > with their ‘I killed X-many babies’ and ‘oh you should have seen the > look > > > on that old woman’s face when she died’ all the time.  We all know > > > ninety-nine point nine percent of them were just idiots who shot at US > > > soldiers and marines." > > > In an emergency move, Paradise officials are considering drafting crack > > > whores and farm animals if they cannot come up with seventy-two actual > > > virgins for each martyr. > > > Developing…

Response:

Abdi, The links that you posted in your reply show cognitive dissonance.  They are completely irrelevant to anything in my post.  Moreover, you responded with an ad hominem remark.  Lighten up. May your virgins all look like Yasser Arafat. CW "abdi" <a…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:K_Vjc.38412$X14.17588@twister.nyroc.rr.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> You listen to Rush Limbaugh to much, he is just a druggie. > Check this and you will be educated > http://www.strike-the-root.com/4/hambidge/hambidge2.html > try this > http://www.google.com/search?q=cognitive+dissonance > Just say no to druggies. > "CW" <c…@optonline.net> wrote in message > news:x2Cjc.13609$Gd3.3380660@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net… > > > "> PARADISE-Sources inside Paradise are confirming reports that > > recruitment > > > > of virgins to reward mujihadeen fighting against the American infidels > > is > > > > in serious trouble.  At issue is the refusal of virgins to be seen > with > > > > dirty stupid jerks who smell like dog vomit and cannot stop talking > > about > > > > how holy they are because they blew up a couple Iraqi school children. > > > > Also, too many virgins are getting wind of the rumors about mujihadeen > > > > pre-martyrdom sexual practices.  This problem coupled with the sheer > > > > numbers of martyrs entering Paradise lately threatens to derail the > > Jihad > > > > against the American Infidels. > > > > "I don’t want to be deflowered by some guy who’s last sexual act was > > with > > > > a boar hog," said one would-be reward virgin who spoke on condition of > > > > anonymity.  "Besides, everyone knows how boring these guys are in > > Paradise > > > > with their ‘I killed X-many babies’ and ‘oh you should have seen the > > look > > > > on that old woman’s face when she died’ all the time.  We all know > > > > ninety-nine point nine percent of them were just idiots who shot at US > > > > soldiers and marines." > > > > In an emergency move, Paradise officials are considering drafting > crack > > > > whores and farm animals if they cannot come up with seventy-two actual > > > > virgins for each martyr. > > > > Developing…

Response:

You seem like a sophisticated redneck how about this article? Pat Tillman is not a hero: He got what was coming to him By Rene Gonzalez April 28, 2004 When the death of Pat Tillman occurred, I turned to my friend who was watching the news with me and said, "How much you want to bet they start talking about him as a ‘hero’ in about two hours?" Of course, my friend did not want to make that bet. He’d lose. In this self-critical incapable nation, nothing but a knee-jerk "He’s a hero" response is to be expected. I’ve been mystified at the absolute nonsense of being in "awe" of Tillman’s "sacrifice" that has been the American response. Mystified, but not surprised. True, it’s not everyday that you forgo a $3.6 million contract for joining the military. And, not just the regular army, but the elite Army Rangers. You know he was a real Rambo, who wanted to be in the "real" thick of things. I could tell he was that type of macho guy, from his scowling, beefy face on the CNN pictures. Well, he got his wish. Even Rambo got shot in the third movie, but in real life, you die as a result of being shot. They should call Pat Tillman’s army life "Rambo 4: Rambo Attempts to Strike Back at His Former Rambo 3 Taliban Friends, and Gets Killed." But, does that make him a hero? I guess it’s a matter of perspective. For people in the United States, who seem to be unable to admit the stupidity of both the Afghanistan and Iraqi wars, such a trade-off in life standards (if not expectancy) is nothing short of heroic. Obviously, the man must be made of "stronger stuff" to have had decided to "serve" his country rather than take from it. It’s the old JFK exhortation to citizen service to the nation, and it seems to strike an emotional chord. So, it’s understandable why Americans automatically knee-jerk into hero worship. However, in my neighborhood in Puerto Rico, Tillman would have been called a "pendejo," an idiot. Tillman, in the absurd belief that he was defending or serving his all-powerful country from a seventh-rate, Third World nation devastated by the previous conflicts it had endured, decided to give up a comfortable life to place himself in a combat situation that cost him his life. This was not "Ramon or Tyrone," who joined the military out of financial necessity, or to have a chance at education. This was a "G.I. Joe" guy who got what was coming to him. That was not heroism, it was prophetic idiocy. Tillman, probably acting out his nationalist-patriotic fantasies forged in years of exposure to Clint Eastwood and Rambo movies, decided to insert himself into a conflict he didn’t need to insert himself into. It wasn’t like he was defending the East coast from an invasion of a foreign power. THAT would have been heroic and laudable. What he did was make himself useful to a foreign invading army, and he paid for it. It’s hard to say I have any sympathy for his death because I don’t feel like his "service" was necessary. He wasn’t defending me, nor was he defending the Afghani people. He was acting out his macho, patriotic crap and I guess someone with a bigger gun did him in. Perhaps it’s the old, dreamy American thought process that forces them to put sports greats and "larger than life" sacrificial lambs on the pedestal of heroism, no matter what they’ve done. After all, the American nation has no other role to play but to be the cheerleaders of the home team; a sad role to have to play during conflicts that suffer from severe legitimacy and credibility problems. Matters are a little clearer for those living outside the American borders. Tillman got himself killed in a country other than his own without having been forced to go over to that country to kill its people. After all, whether we like them or not, the Taliban is more Afghani than we are. Their resistance is more legitimate than our invasion, regardless of the fact that our social values are probably more enlightened than theirs. For that, he shouldn’t be hailed as a hero, he should be used as a poster boy for the dangerous consequences of too much "America is #1," frat boy, propaganda bull. It might just make a regular man irrationally drop $3.6 million to go fight in a conflict that was anything but "self-defense." The same could be said of the unusual belief of 50 percent of the American nation that thinks Saddam Hussein was behind Sept. 11. One must indeed stand in awe of the amazing success of the American propaganda machine. It works wonders. Al-Qaeda won’t be defeated in Afghanistan, even if we did kill all their operatives there. Only through careful and logical changing of the underlying conditions that allow for the ideology to foster will Al-Qaeda be defeated. Ask the Israelis if 50 years of blunt force have eradicated the Palestinian resistance. For that reason, Tillman’s service, along with that of thousands of American soldiers, has been wrongly utilized. He did die in vain, because in the years to come, we will realize the irrationality of the War on Terror and the American reaction to Sept. 11. The sad part is that we won’t realize it before we send more people like Pat Tillman over to their deaths. Rene Gonzalez is a UMass graduate student. This morning, it was removed…. April 29, 2004 In yesterday’s Editorial/Opinion section of The Massachusetts Daily Collegian, a column titled "Pat Tillman is not a hero: he got what was coming to him" appeared. In the piece, graduate student Rene Gonzalez wrote about the death of former NFL player and Army Ranger Pat Tillman, who was killed during a skirmish in Afghanistan last Friday. A flood of feedback has poured in, nearly all of which is harsh criticism of either Gonzalez’s words or of The Collegian’s decision to run the column. In fact, reader response has been so great that we would like to take this opportunity to respond to our readers. Rene Gonzalez is a graduate student at the University of Massachusetts who occasionally submits columns to The Collegian. While his views in no way reflect the opinion of our editorial board or staff, we base our decisions not on whether we agree with the opinion of students submitting opinion pieces, but on the backbone of journalism: The First Amendment. As a news organization, The Collegian lists the First Amendment as its most important value and asset. We do not hold back from printing news stories, columns or editorials that may upset our readership – instead, we seek to both inform and stir debate through our publication. Our decision to publish Gonzalez’s column – an opinion piece written by a member of our campus community – is the only way for us to live up to this ideal. One of the most important points that we at The Collegian want to stress to our readers is the nature of the Editorial/Opinion page. Not one columnist or student’s opinion printed on our page represents that of the paper at large. Gonzalez’s opinion is his own, and it runs under our pages as a single voice on our campus. The Editorial/Opinion page is designed to give a wide variety of students a chance to speak through a large-scale medium. With that comes the possibility of discourse and disagreement, and that is an accepted reality for us. We would also like to draw attention to the fact that The Collegian has reported and commented on Tillman’s death, and life, on a number of occasions in the last few days. Two columns written by editors on our staff have been published in praise of Tillman’s life and his willingness to sacrifice it for what he believed in, including one column that ran on the page next to Gonzalez’s. This was done intentionally, to display to our readers that we do not publish any opinion piece with more favor than any other – instead, we adhered to one of our missions: to create discussion, with dialogue on the merits of each argument. The opinion of Gonzalez, though it dissented from that of the other two columns, deserved its space within the debate. Through the Web site feedback, phone calls and e-mails we have received, it has become very obvious to us at The Collegian that Gonzalez’s opinion has caused a lot of controversy and frustration. We cannot, however, compromise the mission of our publication for the sake of ensuring the constant happiness of our readership. Gonzalez has just as much right to the opinion he presented as anyone else does, and we at The Collegian hope that this incident will foster a relationship with our readers that shows we are open to all opinions, not only the ones many people agree with. We welcome all feedback on the issue, and hope that this represents growth in our relationship with you, the readers. Sincerely, The Massachusetts Daily Collegian Editorial Board "CW" <c…@optonline.net> wrote in message

news:x2Cjc.13609$Gd3.3380660@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > "> PARADISE-Sources inside Paradise are confirming reports that > recruitment > > > of virgins to reward mujihadeen fighting against the American infidels > is > > > in serious trouble.  At issue is the refusal of virgins to be seen with > > > dirty stupid jerks who smell like dog vomit and cannot stop talking > about > > > how holy they are because they blew up a couple Iraqi school children. > > > Also, too many virgins are getting wind of the rumors about mujihadeen > > > pre-martyrdom sexual practices.  This problem coupled with the sheer > > > numbers of martyrs entering Paradise lately threatens to derail the > Jihad > > > against the American Infidels. > > > "I don’t want to be deflowered by some guy who’s last sexual act was > with > > > a boar hog," said one would-be reward virgin who spoke on condition of > > > anonymity.  "Besides, everyone knows how boring these guys are in > Paradise > > > with their ‘I killed X-many babies’ and ‘oh you should have seen the > look > > > on that old woman’s face when she died’ all the time.  We all know > > > ninety-nine point nine percent of them were just idiots who shot at US > > > soldiers

… read more »

Response:

Surely a sophisticated red neck will not listen to 60 minutes, Rush will be disappointed :-( 60 Minutes II  (CBS) April 28, 2004 Court Martial In Iraq Last month, the U.S. Army announced 17 soldiers in Iraq, including a brigadier general, had been removed from duty after charges of mistreating Iraqi prisoners. But the details of what happened have been kept secret, until now. It turns out photographs surfaced showing American soldiers abusing and humiliating Iraqis being held at a prison near Baghdad. The Army investigated, and issued a scathing report. Now, an Army general and her command staff may face the end of long military careers. And six soldiers are facing court martial in Iraq — and possible prison time. Correspondent Dan Rather talks to one of those soldiers. And, for the first time, 60 Minutes II will show some of the pictures that led to the Army investigation. According to the U.S. Army, one Iraqi prisoner was told to stand on a box with his head covered, wires attached to his hands. He was told that if he fell off the box, he would be electrocuted. It was this picture, and dozens of others, that prompted an investigation by the U.S. Army. On Tuesday, 60 Minutes II asked Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, deputy director of coalition operations in Iraq, what went wrong. "Frankly, I think all of us are disappointed by the actions of the few," says Kimmitt. "Every day, we love our soldiers, but frankly, some days we’re not always proud of our soldiers." For decades under Saddam Hussein, many prisoners who were taken to the Abu Ghraib prison never came out. It was the centerpiece of Saddam’s empire of fear, and those prisoners who did make it out told nightmarish tales of torture beyond imagining – and executions without reason. 60 Minutes II talked about the prison and shared pictures of what Americans did there with two men who have extensive interrogation experience: Former Marine Lt. Col. Bill Cowan and former CIA Bureau Chief Bob Baer. "I visited Abu Ghraib a couple of days after it was liberated. It was the most awful sight I’ve ever seen. I said, ‘If there’s ever a reason to get rid of Saddam Hussein, it’s because of Abu Ghraib,’" says Baer. "There were bodies that were eaten by dogs, torture. You know, electrodes coming out of the walls. It was an awful place." "We went into Iraq to stop things like this from happening, and indeed, here they are happening under our tutelage," says Cowan. It was American soldiers serving as military police at Abu Ghraib who took these pictures. The investigation started when one soldier got them from a friend, and gave them to his commanders. 60 Minutes II has a dozen of these pictures, and there are many more – pictures that show Americans, men and women in military uniforms, posing with naked Iraqi prisoners. There are shots of the prisoners stacked in a pyramid, one with a slur written on his skin in English. In some, the male prisoners are positioned to simulate sex with each other. And in most of the pictures, the Americans are laughing, posing, pointing, or giving the camera a thumbs-up. 60 Minutes II was only able to contact one of the soldiers facing charges. But the Army says they are all in Iraq, awaiting court martial. "What can the Army say specifically to Iraqis and others who are going to see this and take it personally," Rather asked Kimmitt, in an interview conducted by satellite from Baghdad. "The first thing I’d say is we’re appalled as well. These are our fellow soldiers. These are the people we work with every day, and they represent us. They wear the same uniform as us, and they let their fellow soldiers down," says Kimmitt. "Our soldiers could be taken prisoner as well. And we expect our soldiers to be treated well by the adversary, by the enemy. And if we can’t hold ourselves up as an example of how to treat people with dignity and respect . We can’t ask that other nations to that to our soldiers as well." "So what would I tell the people of Iraq? This is wrong. This is reprehensible. But this is not representative of the 150,000 soldiers that are over here," adds Kimmitt. "I’d say the same thing to the American people… Don’t judge your army based on the actions of a few." One of the soldiers facing court martial is Army Reserve Staff Sgt. Chip Frederick. Frederick is charged with maltreatment for allegedly participating in and setting up a photo, and for posing in a photograph by sitting on top of a detainee. He is charged with an indecent act for observing one scene. He is also charged with assault for allegedly striking detainees – and ordering detainees to strike each other. 60 Minutes II talked with him by phone from Baghdad, where he is awaiting court martial. Frederick told us he will plead not guilty, claiming the way the Army was running the prison led to the abuse of prisoners. "We had no support, no training whatsoever. And I kept asking my chain of command for certain things…like rules and regulations," says Frederick. "And it just wasn’t happening." Six months before he faced a court martial, Frederick sent home a video diary of his trip across the country. Frederick, a reservist, said he was proud to serve in Iraq. He seemed particularly well-suited for the job at Abu Ghraib. He’s a corrections officer at a Virginia prison, whose warden described Frederick to us as "one of the best." Frederick says Americans came into the prison: "We had military intelligence, we had all kinds of other government agencies, FBI, CIA … All those that I didn’t even know or recognize." Frederick’s letters and email messages home also offer clues to problems at the prison. He wrote that he was helping the interrogators: "Military intelligence has encouraged and told us ‘Great job.’ " "They usually don’t allow others to watch them interrogate. But since they like the way I run the prison, they have made an exception." "We help getting them to talk with the way we handle them. … We’ve had a very high rate with our style of getting them to break. They usually end up breaking within hours." According to the Army’s own investigation, that’s what was happening. The Army found that interrogators asked reservists working in the prison to prepare the Iraqi detainees, physically and mentally, for questioning. "What, if any actions, are being taken against the interrogators? "I hope the investigation is including not only the people who committed the crimes, but some of the people that might have encouraged these crimes as well," says Kimmitt. "Because they certainly share some level of responsibility as well." But so far, none of the interrogators at Abu Ghraib are facing criminal charges. In fact, a number of them are civilians, and military law doesn’t apply to them. One of the civilian interrogators at Abu Ghraib was questioned by the Army, and he told investigators he had "broken several tables during interrogations, unintentionally," while trying to "fear up" prisoners. He denied hurting anyone. In our phone conversation, 60 Minutes II asked Frederick whether he had seen any prisoners beaten. "I saw things. We had to use force sometimes to get the inmates to cooperate, just like our rules of engagement said," says Frederick. "We learned a little bit of Arabic, basic commands. And they didn’t want to listen, so sometimes, you would just give them a little nudge or something like that just to get them to cooperate so we could get the mission accomplished." Attorney Gary Myers and a judge advocate in Iraq are defending Frederick. They say he should never have been charged, because of the failure of his commanders to provide proper training and standards. "The elixir of power, the elixir of believing that you’re helping the CIA, for God’s sake, when you’re from a small town in Virginia, that’s intoxicating," says Myers. "And so, good guys sometimes do things believing that they are being of assistance and helping a just cause. … And helping people they view as important." Frederick says he didn’t see a copy of the Geneva Convention rules for handling prisoners of war until after he was charged. The Army investigation confirms that soldiers at Abu Ghraib were not trained at all in Geneva Convention rules. And most were reservists, part-time soldiers who didn’t get the kind of specialized prisoner of war training given to regular Army members. Frederick also says there were far too few soldiers there for the number of prisoners: "There was, when I left, there was over 900. And there was only five soldiers, plus two non-commissioned officers, in charge for those 900 — over 900 inmates." Rather asked Kimmitt about understaffing. "That doesn’t condone individual acts of criminal behavior no matter how tired we are. No matter how stretched we are, that doesn’t give us license and it doesn’t give us the authority to break the law," says Kimmitt. "That may have been a contributing factor, but at the end of the day, this is probably more about leadership, supervision, setting standards, abiding by the Army values and understanding what’s right, and having the guts to say what’s right." Brig. Gen. Janice Karpinsky ran Abu Ghraib for the Army. She was also in charge of three other Army prison facilities that housed thousands of Iraqi inmates. The Army investigation determined that her lack of leadership and clear standards led to problems system wide. Karpinski talked with 60 Minutes’ Steve Kroft last October at Abu Ghraib, before any of this came out. "This is international standards," said Karpinski. "It’s the best care available in a prison facility." But the Army investigation found serious problems behind the scenes. The Army has photographs that show a detainee with wires attached to his genitals. Another shows a dog attacking an Iraqi prisoner. Frederick said that dogs were "used for intimidation factors." Part of the Army’s own investigation is a statement from an Iraqi detainee who charges a … read more »

Response:

Groovy. Ilsa the She Wolf Does Baghdad.  :-( ((U))   M In <news:cHikc.133889$e17.21752@twister.nyroc.rr.com>, abdi said: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Surely a sophisticated red neck will not listen to 60 minutes, Rush > will be disappointed :-( > 60 Minutes II  (CBS) > April 28, 2004 > Court Martial In Iraq > Last month, the U.S. Army announced 17 soldiers in Iraq, including a > brigadier general, had been removed from duty after charges of > mistreating Iraqi prisoners. > But the details of what happened have been kept secret, until now. > It turns out photographs surfaced showing American soldiers abusing > and humiliating Iraqis being held at a prison near Baghdad. The Army > investigated, and issued a scathing report. > Now, an Army general and her command staff may face the end of long > military careers. And six soldiers are facing court martial in Iraq > — and possible prison time. > Correspondent Dan Rather talks to one of those soldiers. And, for the > first time, 60 Minutes II will show some of the pictures that led to > the Army investigation. > According to the U.S. Army, one Iraqi prisoner was told to stand on a > box with his head covered, wires attached to his hands. He was told > that if he fell off the box, he would be electrocuted. > It was this picture, and dozens of others, that prompted an > investigation by the U.S. Army. On Tuesday, 60 Minutes II asked Brig. > Gen. Mark Kimmitt, deputy director of coalition operations in Iraq, > what went wrong. > "Frankly, I think all of us are disappointed by the actions of the > few," says Kimmitt. "Every day, we love our soldiers, but frankly, > some days we’re not always proud of our soldiers." > For decades under Saddam Hussein, many prisoners who were taken to > the Abu Ghraib prison never came out. It was the centerpiece of > Saddam’s empire of fear, and those prisoners who did make it out told > nightmarish tales of torture beyond imagining – and executions > without reason. > 60 Minutes II talked about the prison and shared pictures of what > Americans did there with two men who have extensive interrogation > experience: Former Marine Lt. Col. Bill Cowan and former CIA Bureau > Chief Bob Baer. > "I visited Abu Ghraib a couple of days after it was liberated. It was > the most awful sight I’ve ever seen. I said, ‘If there’s ever a > reason to get rid of Saddam Hussein, it’s because of Abu Ghraib,’" > says Baer. "There were bodies that were eaten by dogs, torture. You > know, electrodes coming out of the walls. It was an awful place." > "We went into Iraq to stop things like this from happening, and > indeed, here they are happening under our tutelage," says Cowan. > It was American soldiers serving as military police at Abu Ghraib who > took these pictures. The investigation started when one soldier got > them from a friend, and gave them to his commanders. 60 Minutes II > has a dozen of these pictures, and there are many more – pictures > that show Americans, men and women in military uniforms, posing with > naked Iraqi prisoners. > There are shots of the prisoners stacked in a pyramid, one with a slur > written on his skin in English. > In some, the male prisoners are positioned to simulate sex with each > other. And in most of the pictures, the Americans are laughing, > posing, pointing, or giving the camera a thumbs-up. > 60 Minutes II was only able to contact one of the soldiers facing > charges. But the Army says they are all in Iraq, awaiting court > martial. > "What can the Army say specifically to Iraqis and others who are > going to see this and take it personally," Rather asked Kimmitt, in > an interview conducted by satellite from Baghdad. > "The first thing I’d say is we’re appalled as well. These are our > fellow soldiers. These are the people we work with every day, and > they represent us. They wear the same uniform as us, and they let > their fellow soldiers down," says Kimmitt. > "Our soldiers could be taken prisoner as well. And we expect our > soldiers to be treated well by the adversary, by the enemy. And if we > can’t hold ourselves up as an example of how to treat people with > dignity and respect . We can’t ask that other nations to that to our > soldiers as well." > "So what would I tell the people of Iraq? This is wrong. This is > reprehensible. But this is not representative of the 150,000 soldiers > that are over here," adds Kimmitt. "I’d say the same thing to the > American people… Don’t judge your army based on the actions of a > few." > One of the soldiers facing court martial is Army Reserve Staff Sgt. > Chip Frederick. > Frederick is charged with maltreatment for allegedly participating in > and setting up a photo, and for posing in a photograph by sitting on > top of a detainee. He is charged with an indecent act for observing > one scene. He is also charged with assault for allegedly striking > detainees – and ordering detainees to strike each other. > 60 Minutes II talked with him by phone from Baghdad, where he is > awaiting court martial. > Frederick told us he will plead not guilty, claiming the way the Army > was running the prison led to the abuse of prisoners. > "We had no support, no training whatsoever. And I kept asking my > chain of command for certain things…like rules and regulations," > says Frederick. "And it just wasn’t happening." > Six months before he faced a court martial, Frederick sent home a > video diary of his trip across the country. Frederick, a reservist, > said he was proud to serve in Iraq. He seemed particularly > well-suited for the job at Abu Ghraib. He’s a corrections officer at > a Virginia prison, whose warden described Frederick to us as "one of > the best." > Frederick says Americans came into the prison: "We had military > intelligence, we had all kinds of other government agencies, FBI, CIA > … All those that I didn’t even know or recognize." > Frederick’s letters and email messages home also offer clues to > problems at the prison. He wrote that he was helping the > interrogators: > "Military intelligence has encouraged and told us ‘Great job.’ " > "They usually don’t allow others to watch them interrogate. But since > they like the way I run the prison, they have made an exception." > "We help getting them to talk with the way we handle them. … We’ve > had a very high rate with our style of getting them to break. They > usually end up breaking within hours." > According to the Army’s own investigation, that’s what was happening. > The Army found that interrogators asked reservists working in the > prison to prepare the Iraqi detainees, physically and mentally, for > questioning. > "What, if any actions, are being taken against the interrogators? > "I hope the investigation is including not only the people who > committed the crimes, but some of the people that might have > encouraged these crimes as well," says Kimmitt. "Because they > certainly share some level of responsibility as well." > But so far, none of the interrogators at Abu Ghraib are facing > criminal charges. In fact, a number of them are civilians, and > military law doesn’t apply to them. > One of the civilian interrogators at Abu Ghraib was questioned by the > Army, and he told investigators he had "broken several tables during > interrogations, unintentionally," while trying to "fear up" > prisoners. He denied hurting anyone. > In our phone conversation, 60 Minutes II asked Frederick whether he > had seen any prisoners beaten. > "I saw things. We had to use force sometimes to get the inmates to > cooperate, just like our rules of engagement said," says Frederick. > "We learned a little bit of Arabic, basic commands. And they didn’t > want to listen, so sometimes, you would just give them a little nudge > or something like that just to get them to cooperate so we could get > the mission accomplished." > Attorney Gary Myers and a judge advocate in Iraq are defending > Frederick. They say he should never have been charged, because of the > failure of his commanders to provide proper training and standards. > "The elixir of power, the elixir of believing that you’re helping the > CIA, for God’s sake, when you’re from a small town in Virginia, that’s > intoxicating," says Myers. "And so, good guys sometimes do things > believing that they are being of assistance and helping a just cause. > … And helping people they view as important." > Frederick says he didn’t see a copy of the Geneva Convention rules for > handling prisoners of war until after he was charged. > The Army investigation confirms that soldiers at Abu Ghraib were not > trained at all in Geneva Convention rules. And most were reservists, > part-time soldiers who didn’t get the kind of specialized prisoner of > war training given to regular Army members. > Frederick also says there were far too few soldiers there for the > number of prisoners: "There was, when I left, there was over 900. And > there was only five soldiers, plus two non-commissioned officers, in > charge for those 900 — over 900 inmates." > Rather asked Kimmitt about understaffing. "That doesn’t condone > individual acts of criminal behavior no matter how tired we are. No > matter how stretched we are, that doesn’t give us license and it > doesn’t give us the authority to break the law," says Kimmitt. > "That may have been a contributing factor, but at the end of the day, > this is probably more about leadership, supervision, setting > standards, abiding by the Army values and understanding what’s right, > and having the guts to say what’s right." > Brig. Gen. Janice Karpinsky ran Abu Ghraib for the Army. She was also > in charge of three other Army prison facilities that housed thousands > of Iraqi inmates. > The Army investigation determined that her lack of leadership and > clear standards led to problems system wide. Karpinski talked with 60 > Minutes’ Steve Kroft last October at Abu

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Response:

Kelly,     You are a hero too for marrying a Hispanic too. "Kelly" <kbranc…@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:1e606e8f.0404300727.5229c028@posting.google.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> How nice to see that in the Land of the Free we can still accuse our > neighbors of being "glory-hungry rednecks".  You can take the > following remarks as coming from a white gal who is married to a > Hispanic from Northern New Mexico and has three Hispanic children by > him.  Our cousin’s husband was recently shipped to Iraq.  He is a > National Guardsman who certainly didn’t expect to end up in Iraq but > always knew deployment was a possibility.  We have a good friend whose > son just returned from Iraq this week.  Thank God that he wasn’t one > who had to stay longer since Bush lied to them about the length of > their deployment.  His parents had to pay to fly him home as the > military only got him as far as US soil.  My son is leaving for the > Naval Academy in June and will serve 5 years in the military for the > opportunity to attend the Academy.  I don’t have a lot of experience > with the military or military families except for this. > Considering the low numbers in our military service today, I would > have to say God bless people like Tillman who voluntarily joined and > now serve, keeping Bush from initiating the draft and sending 18 year > olds to fight guerrillas.  Gonzales is not writing this as a > standpoint against current Bush foreign policy, he has made it an > attack of the poor, underprivileged minority against the affluent > white man.  As someone who lives in "Ramon and Tyrone’s" neighborhood, > I take offense to Mr. Gonzales’ attitude that those young men are more > possibly more deserving.  Actually, I think he would consider them > more pitiful and pathetic in their deaths than he would be of Tillman. >  Did he write an article about the Navajo woman who died, serving in > the military because of the opportunity it granted her for a better > life for her and her daughter; of how sad it was that her only way out > of oppression was to join?  In my neck of the woods, this is a > reality!  Many of our grandfathers and great-grandfathers in New > Mexico walked the Bataan Death March, we know what the consequences of > military service are, and still choose to serve. > Pat Tillman had no way of knowing that he would be shipped to > Afghanistan upon joining the service.  I’m sure he might have > intentionally chosen a career in the service that was bound to get him > there if he so desired.  Mr. Gonzales talks about his Puerto Rico > neighborhood and being outside of America while he sits in his cushy > little UMass hidey hole spouting this crap.  How nice to be able to > pick and choose when to be an American.  That’s part of the glory of > being free, I guess.  But if somebody pretending to be an American > wants to assassinate American (to be read, "Bush") policy, is it right > to do it on the back of someone who has died pursuing their belief of > what America stands for?  Mr. Gonzales has the right to have this > article in the paper because of people like Tillman and he should be > thanking him for that, not degrading his rationale for serving. > Abdi, my husband’s neck is red because he works his ass off all day > long, not because he is a narrow-minded pathetic piece of shit who has > nothing better to do all day than judge others based on their wealth > and color of their skin.  We work hard to do the best we can for our > children.  Some of us can send our kids to UMass, some of us have to > help our children do their best in school so they can obtain a > scholarship.  New Mexico has a scholarship program to put all of it’s > graduates through school so that fewer of them have to join the > military for that opportunity.  Hopefully, they will still remember > the value of service to their country even though they don’t have to > spend 5 years obligated to serve after college. > Kelly > "abdi" <a…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

<news:4cikc.133876$e17.28555@twister.nyroc.rr.com>… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > You seem like a sophisticated redneck how about this article? > > Pat Tillman is not a hero: He got what was coming to him > > By Rene Gonzalez > > April 28, 2004 > > When the death of Pat Tillman occurred, I turned to my friend who was > > watching the news with me and said, "How much you want to bet they start > > talking about him as a ‘hero’ in about two hours?" Of course, my friend did > > not want to make that bet. He’d lose. In this self-critical incapable > > nation, nothing but a knee-jerk "He’s a hero" response is to be expected. > > I’ve been mystified at the absolute nonsense of being in "awe" of Tillman’s > > "sacrifice" that has been the American response. Mystified, but not > > surprised. True, it’s not everyday that you forgo a $3.6 million contract > > for joining the military. And, not just the regular army, but the elite Army > > Rangers. You know he was a real Rambo, who wanted to be in the "real" thick > > of things. I could tell he was that type of macho guy, from his scowling, > > beefy face on the CNN pictures. Well, he got his wish. Even Rambo got shot > > in the third movie, but in real life, you die as a result of being shot. > > They should call Pat Tillman’s army life "Rambo 4: Rambo Attempts to Strike > > Back at His Former Rambo 3 Taliban Friends, and Gets Killed." > > But, does that make him a hero? I guess it’s a matter of perspective. For > > people in the United States, who seem to be unable to admit the stupidity of > > both the Afghanistan and Iraqi wars, such a trade-off in life standards (if > > not expectancy) is nothing short of heroic. Obviously, the man must be made > > of "stronger stuff" to have had decided to "serve" his country rather than > > take from it. It’s the old JFK exhortation to citizen service to the nation, > > and it seems to strike an emotional chord. So, it’s understandable why > > Americans automatically knee-jerk into hero worship. > > However, in my neighborhood in Puerto Rico, Tillman would have been called a > > "pendejo," an idiot. Tillman, in the absurd belief that he was defending or > > serving his all-powerful country from a seventh-rate, Third World nation > > devastated by the previous conflicts it had endured, decided to give up a > > comfortable life to place himself in a combat situation that cost him his > > life. This was not "Ramon or Tyrone," who joined the military out of > > financial necessity, or to have a chance at education. This was a "G.I. Joe" > > guy who got what was coming to him. That was not heroism, it was prophetic > > idiocy. > > Tillman, probably acting out his nationalist-patriotic fantasies forged in > > years of exposure to Clint Eastwood and Rambo movies, decided to insert > > himself into a conflict he didn’t need to insert himself into. It wasn’t > > like he was defending the East coast from an invasion of a foreign power. > > THAT would have been heroic and laudable. What he did was make himself > > useful to a foreign invading army, and he paid for it. It’s hard to say I > > have any sympathy for his death because I don’t feel like his "service" was > > necessary. He wasn’t defending me, nor was he defending the Afghani people. > > He was acting out his macho, patriotic crap and I guess someone with a > > bigger gun did him in. > > Perhaps it’s the old, dreamy American thought process that forces them to > > put sports greats and "larger than life" sacrificial lambs on the pedestal > > of heroism, no matter what they’ve done. After all, the American nation has > > no other role to play but to be the cheerleaders of the home team; a sad > > role to have to play during conflicts that suffer from severe legitimacy and > > credibility problems. > > Matters are a little clearer for those living outside the American borders. > > Tillman got himself killed in a country other than his own without having > > been forced to go over to that country to kill its people. After all, > > whether we like them or not, the Taliban is more Afghani than we are. Their > > resistance is more legitimate than our invasion, regardless of the fact that > > our social values are probably more enlightened than theirs. For that, he > > shouldn’t be hailed as a hero, he should be used as a poster boy for the > > dangerous consequences of too much "America is #1," frat boy, propaganda > > bull. It might just make a regular man irrationally drop $3.6 million to go > > fight in a conflict that was anything but "self-defense." The same could be > > said of the unusual belief of 50 percent of the American nation that thinks > > Saddam Hussein was behind Sept. 11. One must indeed stand in awe of the > > amazing success of the American propaganda machine. It works wonders. > > Al-Qaeda won’t be defeated in Afghanistan, even if we did kill all their > > operatives there. Only through careful and logical changing of the > > underlying conditions that allow for the ideology to foster will Al-Qaeda be > > defeated. Ask the Israelis if 50 years of blunt force have eradicated the > > Palestinian resistance. For that reason, Tillman’s service, along with that > > of thousands of American soldiers, has been wrongly utilized. He did die in > > vain, because in the years to come, we will realize the irrationality of the > > War on Terror and the American reaction to Sept. 11. The sad part is that we > > won’t realize it before we send more people like Pat Tillman over to their > > deaths. > > Rene Gonzalez is a UMass graduate student. > > This morning, it was removed…. > > April 29, 2004 > > In yesterday’s Editorial/Opinion section of The Massachusetts Daily > > Collegian, a column titled "Pat Tillman is not a hero: he got what was > > coming to him" appeared. In the piece, graduate student Rene Gonzalez wrote > > about the death of former NFL player and Army Ranger Pat Tillman, who

was … read more »

Response:

How nice to see that in the Land of the Free we can still accuse our neighbors of being "glory-hungry rednecks".  You can take the following remarks as coming from a white gal who is married to a Hispanic from Northern New Mexico and has three Hispanic children by him.  Our cousin’s husband was recently shipped to Iraq.  He is a National Guardsman who certainly didn’t expect to end up in Iraq but always knew deployment was a possibility.  We have a good friend whose son just returned from Iraq this week.  Thank God that he wasn’t one who had to stay longer since Bush lied to them about the length of their deployment.  His parents had to pay to fly him home as the military only got him as far as US soil.  My son is leaving for the Naval Academy in June and will serve 5 years in the military for the opportunity to attend the Academy.  I don’t have a lot of experience with the military or military families except for this. Considering the low numbers in our military service today, I would have to say God bless people like Tillman who voluntarily joined and now serve, keeping Bush from initiating the draft and sending 18 year olds to fight guerrillas.  Gonzales is not writing this as a standpoint against current Bush foreign policy, he has made it an attack of the poor, underprivileged minority against the affluent white man.  As someone who lives in "Ramon and Tyrone’s" neighborhood, I take offense to Mr. Gonzales’ attitude that those young men are more possibly more deserving.  Actually, I think he would consider them more pitiful and pathetic in their deaths than he would be of Tillman.  Did he write an article about the Navajo woman who died, serving in the military because of the opportunity it granted her for a better life for her and her daughter; of how sad it was that her only way out of oppression was to join?  In my neck of the woods, this is a reality!  Many of our grandfathers and great-grandfathers in New Mexico walked the Bataan Death March, we know what the consequences of military service are, and still choose to serve. Pat Tillman had no way of knowing that he would be shipped to Afghanistan upon joining the service.  I’m sure he might have intentionally chosen a career in the service that was bound to get him there if he so desired.  Mr. Gonzales talks about his Puerto Rico neighborhood and being outside of America while he sits in his cushy little UMass hidey hole spouting this crap.  How nice to be able to pick and choose when to be an American.  That’s part of the glory of being free, I guess.  But if somebody pretending to be an American wants to assassinate American (to be read, "Bush") policy, is it right to do it on the back of someone who has died pursuing their belief of what America stands for?  Mr. Gonzales has the right to have this article in the paper because of people like Tillman and he should be thanking him for that, not degrading his rationale for serving. Abdi, my husband’s neck is red because he works his ass off all day long, not because he is a narrow-minded pathetic piece of shit who has nothing better to do all day than judge others based on their wealth and color of their skin.  We work hard to do the best we can for our children.  Some of us can send our kids to UMass, some of us have to help our children do their best in school so they can obtain a scholarship.  New Mexico has a scholarship program to put all of it’s graduates through school so that fewer of them have to join the military for that opportunity.  Hopefully, they will still remember the value of service to their country even though they don’t have to spend 5 years obligated to serve after college. Kelly – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"abdi" <a…@yahoo.com> wrote in message <news:4cikc.133876$e17.28555@twister.nyroc.rr.com>… > You seem like a sophisticated redneck how about this article? > Pat Tillman is not a hero: He got what was coming to him > By Rene Gonzalez > April 28, 2004 > When the death of Pat Tillman occurred, I turned to my friend who was > watching the news with me and said, "How much you want to bet they start > talking about him as a ‘hero’ in about two hours?" Of course, my friend did > not want to make that bet. He’d lose. In this self-critical incapable > nation, nothing but a knee-jerk "He’s a hero" response is to be expected. > I’ve been mystified at the absolute nonsense of being in "awe" of Tillman’s > "sacrifice" that has been the American response. Mystified, but not > surprised. True, it’s not everyday that you forgo a $3.6 million contract > for joining the military. And, not just the regular army, but the elite Army > Rangers. You know he was a real Rambo, who wanted to be in the "real" thick > of things. I could tell he was that type of macho guy, from his scowling, > beefy face on the CNN pictures. Well, he got his wish. Even Rambo got shot > in the third movie, but in real life, you die as a result of being shot. > They should call Pat Tillman’s army life "Rambo 4: Rambo Attempts to Strike > Back at His Former Rambo 3 Taliban Friends, and Gets Killed." > But, does that make him a hero? I guess it’s a matter of perspective. For > people in the United States, who seem to be unable to admit the stupidity of > both the Afghanistan and Iraqi wars, such a trade-off in life standards (if > not expectancy) is nothing short of heroic. Obviously, the man must be made > of "stronger stuff" to have had decided to "serve" his country rather than > take from it. It’s the old JFK exhortation to citizen service to the nation, > and it seems to strike an emotional chord. So, it’s understandable why > Americans automatically knee-jerk into hero worship. > However, in my neighborhood in Puerto Rico, Tillman would have been called a > "pendejo," an idiot. Tillman, in the absurd belief that he was defending or > serving his all-powerful country from a seventh-rate, Third World nation > devastated by the previous conflicts it had endured, decided to give up a > comfortable life to place himself in a combat situation that cost him his > life. This was not "Ramon or Tyrone," who joined the military out of > financial necessity, or to have a chance at education. This was a "G.I. Joe" > guy who got what was coming to him. That was not heroism, it was prophetic > idiocy. > Tillman, probably acting out his nationalist-patriotic fantasies forged in > years of exposure to Clint Eastwood and Rambo movies, decided to insert > himself into a conflict he didn’t need to insert himself into. It wasn’t > like he was defending the East coast from an invasion of a foreign power. > THAT would have been heroic and laudable. What he did was make himself > useful to a foreign invading army, and he paid for it. It’s hard to say I > have any sympathy for his death because I don’t feel like his "service" was > necessary. He wasn’t defending me, nor was he defending the Afghani people. > He was acting out his macho, patriotic crap and I guess someone with a > bigger gun did him in. > Perhaps it’s the old, dreamy American thought process that forces them to > put sports greats and "larger than life" sacrificial lambs on the pedestal > of heroism, no matter what they’ve done. After all, the American nation has > no other role to play but to be the cheerleaders of the home team; a sad > role to have to play during conflicts that suffer from severe legitimacy and > credibility problems. > Matters are a little clearer for those living outside the American borders. > Tillman got himself killed in a country other than his own without having > been forced to go over to that country to kill its people. After all, > whether we like them or not, the Taliban is more Afghani than we are. Their > resistance is more legitimate than our invasion, regardless of the fact that > our social values are probably more enlightened than theirs. For that, he > shouldn’t be hailed as a hero, he should be used as a poster boy for the > dangerous consequences of too much "America is #1," frat boy, propaganda > bull. It might just make a regular man irrationally drop $3.6 million to go > fight in a conflict that was anything but "self-defense." The same could be > said of the unusual belief of 50 percent of the American nation that thinks > Saddam Hussein was behind Sept. 11. One must indeed stand in awe of the > amazing success of the American propaganda machine. It works wonders. > Al-Qaeda won’t be defeated in Afghanistan, even if we did kill all their > operatives there. Only through careful and logical changing of the > underlying conditions that allow for the ideology to foster will Al-Qaeda be > defeated. Ask the Israelis if 50 years of blunt force have eradicated the > Palestinian resistance. For that reason, Tillman’s service, along with that > of thousands of American soldiers, has been wrongly utilized. He did die in > vain, because in the years to come, we will realize the irrationality of the > War on Terror and the American reaction to Sept. 11. The sad part is that we > won’t realize it before we send more people like Pat Tillman over to their > deaths. > Rene Gonzalez is a UMass graduate student. > This morning, it was removed…. > April 29, 2004 > In yesterday’s Editorial/Opinion section of The Massachusetts Daily > Collegian, a column titled "Pat Tillman is not a hero: he got what was > coming to him" appeared. In the piece, graduate student Rene Gonzalez wrote > about the death of former NFL player and Army Ranger Pat Tillman, who was > killed during a skirmish in Afghanistan last Friday. > A flood of feedback has poured in, nearly all of which is harsh criticism of > either Gonzalez’s words or of The Collegian’s decision to run the column. In > fact, reader response has been so great that we would like to take this > opportunity to respond to our readers. > Rene Gonzalez is a graduate student at the University of Massachusetts who > occasionally submits columns to The Collegian. While his

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