Act Acting » Acting School » Psych meds and other hot topics
Psych meds and other hot topics
Question:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jack: I say that antidepressants can be a godsend, and represent a giant step up from being glued to my chair, unable to get up and go to work or take care of myself. I hate being non-functional, but it has happened. NMWFB: Car comes into the shop overheating. Mechanic looks at boiling radiator, " it’s your radiator." puts water in it, you go down the road, but that was not the true source of the problem. The true source of the problem was the silicone glob that the same mechanic used last week to seal the carburetor flange gasket, that clogged up the vacumn advance unit to the distributor and caused retarded timing which ioverheats the engine. Jack: I don’t think it’s a valid analogy. Cars don’t go through emotional cycles, nor do they heal. NMWFB: It is not a valid analogy when you miss the analogy. Jack: Did not! Did not!
For the record, I don’t think Jack missed the analogy – I’m reasonably articulate and that’s a good approximation of what I would have answered. Jack was saying that, while treating the immediate symptoms may not solve the longer term problem – the fact is those symptoms need to be handled. One cannot get to the "source" of any problem while one is going down for the third time – you need to get on dry land before you can learn to swim. I was diagnosed with severe depression with mixed anxiety and mood disorders (and a dash of PSTD for good measure). I resisted drugs because I didn’t want to be changed or to be chemically fooled into thinking I was better. I wanted to get right in there and attack the underlying problems – flush out the roots, as it were. My doctor pointed me to some research sources and guess what I found out? 1. Depression is not simply an emotional response – it has origins in real physical irregularities (see neuro-transmitters) – which may or may not be the body’s response to emotional difficulty but the physical manifestation is real. Depression is both a medical and a psychological condition. 2. While depressed one’s thinking becomes irrational – sense of self-worth and self-evaluation are whacked out – things appear as if through a dark cloud of smoke – therefore perceptions, conclusions and feelings are not reliable – how can you heal yourself with faulty data? 3. It is a clinical fact that psycho-therapy (talk therapy) _can_ exacerbate depression if not conducted in a confined setting (eg: admittance to a medical facility) as the findings from one session are mulled over and distorted before the next session. Hyper reflection is a hallmark of depression. Bottom line – the "root causes" of my depression (yes, some things going back to childhood trauma) were not discernable or retrievable until I was able to get rid of the immediate and acute symptoms of depression, the disease. Until I was able to un-distort Alice’s looking glass (my phrase for depression) and see things in a more realistic fashion. We’re all so afraid of becoming a Prozac Nation that we forget there are real applications for the use of anti-depressants. The disease has biological roots – all interwoven with the emotional causes. One needs to fix the radiator, as it were, to get to the next station to get the other doo-hickey fixed. I mean, if one runs out of gas the real solution is to develop a personal system that sets up reminders and check points that help you always remember to put gas in your car – but the immediate need is to get the car moving again. Ergo – you put gas in it so you can get home and set up the reminder system. What do you do – leave your car in the middle of the street while you deal with the root cause of running out of gas? My $0.05 worth 
Catherine – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – NMWFB: The MORAL of the story is the car doctor did not diagnose the source of the problem correctly, even though he addressed and mitigated the symptoms. Jack: I know, but I still think the analogy is inherently wrong. Get a car up and running and it remains just as broken. Give a _person_ time and they may heal, at least some, even if the drugs don’t address the cause of the problem. This is especially true of emotional damage. Mitigating symptoms isn’t then end-all, but it’s an important part of making _my_ life better. NMWFB: I hope you’ll pardon a literal example: suturing a wound doesn’t heal the cut, but it stops me from bleeding to death in the meantime. Sorry about the nasty example. I think I must be in a mood. Jack: Sometimes the sources of depression are given short shrift, but sometimes, even when they aren’t, depression and other mental illnesses don’t always respond to self-exploration.
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Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I say that antidepressants can be a godsend, and represent a giant step up from being glued to my chair, unable to get up and go to work or take care of myself. I hate being non-functional, but it has happened. Car comes into the shop overheating. Mechanic looks at boiling radiator, " it’s your radiator." puts water in it, you go down the road, but that was not the true source of the problem. The true source of the problem was the silicone glob that the same mechanic used last week to seal the carburetor flange gasket, that clogged up the vacumn advance unit to the distributor and caused retarded timing which ioverheats the engine. I don’t think it’s a valid analogy. Cars don’t go through emotional cycles, nor do they heal. It is not a valid analogy when you miss the analogy.
Did not! Did not! The MORAL of the story is the car doctor did not diagnose the source of the problem correctly, even though he addressed and mitigated the symptoms.
I know, but I still think the analogy is inherently wrong. Get a car up and running and it remains just as broken. Give a _person_ time and they may heal, at least some, even if the drugs don’t address the cause of the problem. This is especially true of emotional damage. Mitigating symptoms isn’t then end-all, but it’s an important part of making _my_ life better. I hope you’ll pardon a literal example: suturing a wound doesn’t heal the cut, but it stops me from bleeding to death in the meantime. Sorry about the nasty example. I think I must be in a mood. Hey, you like swords…
True, it fits the nick. Want to see my scar? How about my tatoo? Sometimes the sources of depression are given short shrift, but sometimes, even when they aren’t, depression and other mental illnesses don’t always respond to self-exploration. Particularly with depressed therapists.
Who are we talking about here? Sounds like you skipped from the general, "everyone" focus to something more personal. That’s not bad, but it’s confusing. Now I may get into hot water here, but too bad. I bet half of all therapists, easily, are alienated from their child-vitality. They cannot bring you back to yours.
Hey, be as provocative as you like, but you just crossed over from what you know into conclusions about my life. Do you notice the difference? It’s hard for me to tell from here. You don’t know if I *have* a therapist, and I doubt you know my story, but now you’re telling me what will and won’t work for me. Did you notice that part? I don’t mind — hell, I welcome — different ideas and experiences. If you’ve seen something different or reached a new conclusion, go to it with what little solace my support provides, but don’t try to force it onto me and then act surprised at the result. Hell, even when self-knowledge can reduce depression, it can takes *years* to become effective. So use the bridge! Take the bridge! " Self-knowledge" isn’t even what it is about. Insight therapy is limited. Self knowledge, as Alan MacFarlane would ramblingly tell you, is a mind game. EXPERIENCING YOURSELF, is different. That brings you your emotional vitality. No depression in emotional vitality.
I’m thrilled that you’ve found a solution that resonates for you. I don’t mean this sarcastically. It sounds like, under this boosterism, you’ve found a solution that probably has application to lots of people, me among them. But every shout of "I’ve found the *only* TRUE answer!" rings false to me. Think about it. I already know there’s more than one way, and I also know that I’ve heard lots of people give me advise that worked for them and *didn’t* work for me. My conclusion is easy: I know any claim to a single true path is wrong from the get-go. That’s a long trip for someone who can’t function right now. I need to advance, but in the meantime I don’t want to be institutionalized, and I don’t (at least right now) want to suicide. The true source of depression, IMHO, Stop. I know it’s your opinion and all, but I think this is where you start taking flack. Are you telling me that you have your opinion about the true source of *my* depression? Good Lord, was I talking to you?
Sure. You were talking about everyone, weren’t you? Aren’t I part of everyone? How could I be rendering an opinion on *your* depression, then get pasted with " presumptuous"? I am talking about depression, the universal human feeling of flatness. Can WE get through some general statements?
Not easily. Universal conclusions apply universally, and as I mentioned before, I’m a big part of *my* universe. I’m not unique in this, either. Universal conclusions — particularly absolute conclusions — are pretty much guaranteed to draw fire around here when they aren’t actually universal. Here, lets practice: IMHO sun burns sting like a bitch. Am I talking about your sunburn?
Yes. NO! Just a little universal experience.
I don’t mean to be dismissive, but if you’re talking about the general condition of "sunburn", you’re talking about *all* sunburn, like it or not. Kind of presumptuous, don’t you think? You don’t know enough about me to tell me that. No more presumptuous than some doctor telling you your chemistry is fucked up, take a pill, pay up, bye-bye.
Stop that. Those may be your experiences, and I’ll get all indignant for you if they are, but they’re not mine. It’s an important boundary. This _is_ a boundary issue, by the way. I’m starting to infer that you aren’t seeing the boundary clearly. and far more interested in your life, your feelings, your history, your experience, your dilemmas, your moments where your vital expression was shut down in the name of good manners.
This sounds like a real experience of yours, and I’d be interested in hearing your story. Lots of people would be, I suspect. It’s a distraction, though, if I have to spend half my attention fending your conclusions off of my life. Your response here baffles me. You split my opinion in half here. Read it and give me a personal response to the BELOW.
I split your paragraph where I did on purpose. In the top part, I was questioning your original assumptions and the scope of your answer. "The true source of depression…." Do you see the absolutes in that? In the next section you’d detailed your answer. Your ideas aren’t bad, and I didn’t want to dismiss them. I violently disagreed with your implication that they were universal, but that’s all. is the alienation from our true selves that occurs as we try to meet our parents and the world’s needs as young sensitive children. We sacrifice our inner reality. Answer this honestly. When was the last time you laughed so quickly that milk sprayed out your nose?
Look, if you’re going to change subjects that quickly, warn me before I get a brain cramp. You could hurt a guy. Milk-spray patterns on the glass tube? Not recently, but only because I don’t routinely drink milk from a glass. Coffee, now, that’s another question…. NMWFB
Swords Take ".protect" out of the address for replies. Use anon-19589 at anon.twwells.com for anon email
Response:
Right – major snipping about to take place ’cause I see this thread is getting kinda long … here goes Yo Averti – wondered where you had bin hidin’ yoself.:) Whatdaya think of my new nick huh huh??? I like it a lot 8). it sounds exotic.
Shucks <grin you have such a way with words Have I been hiding?
I did not notice posts for you for quite a while although that could have just been my server again <sigh Read this today K:) Right this very now 8).
hehehe – remember this tomorrow? <giggles I like to try and keep track of the posts ’cause I might just miss something that has been said and just say the same thing or I could step on someone’s toes by misinterpreting the post ’cause of having missed out on some of them. But, I s’pose that is the perfectionist part of me rearing it’s ugly head.:) I know a LOT of people who strive to be perfect. None of them have made it yet 8).
strive strive strive Aaahhh, but many a dentist and doctor has stated that the continual use of penicillin (sp) can cause a problem with the teeth of children. This is a case of misapplication. If you sprinkle salt on your food, that’s one thing. If you eat a box of salt, it could kill you.
ugh gross brrr Setting aside the rather obvious notion that if you have a life-threatening infection, you can get along without teeth if that’s what is sacrificed in order to save the rest of you.
True – it would also probably help me with my weight – imagine sucking on a steak:-0) Also, with continual use of an antibiotic it can render itself helpless because the child’s immune system builds up a resistance against the goodness in the antibiotic. Quite true. Antibiotics are not really in the same league with the drugs we were discussing, though. There no such thing as a permanent, ongoing, therapuetic dose of penicillin.
Hokay – I saw reference in the original post to antibiotics and I thought "I know something about this. I can say something here." <big grin There’s doubt that homeopathic remedies work for some people in some cases. But what’s IN them is similar to the stuff that comes out of the big drug companies.
I know of many mothers all these years later (my son is in his teens) who still use toncilite (sp) Interesting that it is still similar to the drug companies’ stuff – I thought it was all natural stuff. Just goes to show how deceiving a name can be huh??? If you got stabbed 500 years ago, the local midwife or barber would pack the wound with moldy bread. Nobody knew WHY it worked, Now we know it worked because certain kinds of mold IS an antibitoic, and does cure infection. (Or, if it’s moldy rye bread, makes you see flying witches and saints climbing ladders 8)).
Scratching in the dirt bin for last week’s moldy bread also, we moved from one city to another and maybe the climate also had something to do with it. I am just extremely nervous of antibiotics and will only use them as a last resort.:) Again, it’s up to you. I don’t feel threatened that there is more than roster of things to try when your health needs repairing; I think it’s all to the good. I’ve had periods where I was simultaneously undergoing massage therapy, chiropractic, and acupuncture (well, not simultaneously, but concurrently serially, I guess 8)). The ”There’s Only One True Way” mindset is not for me.
I don’t condemn antibiotics either – I just would prefer to use them as a last and final resort. I suppose the saying "once bitten, twice shy" refers to me in alot of areas. Hmmmm massage therapy sounds absolutely delightful – think I’ll change my hypno for that:) I do love your words regarding granny and the barks and roots:) My actual granny was a Native Person and probably never touched a root in her 88 years 8).
LOL – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is true. It is no good being ‘doped up’ in order to cope with life. I can’t entirely agree with a sweeping statement like that. SOME doped up people–schizophrenics, for example–wouldn’t be able to LIVE a life, without meds. I suppose I based this post on my personal experiences and probably should have stated that at the beginning or somewhere in it. For me, when I used sedatives and sleeping pills, I lost a whole lot of time, I could not cope with my life ’cause I was so doped up, I could not think clearly, rationally, or otherwise. That’s not surprising. When I used to self-medicate with alcohol and morphine sulfate derivitives, _I_ lost a whole lot of time (and my lunch, usually). So THAT was not the correct’and beneficial drug therapy for me.
They were prescribed. I have since been prescribed an antidepressant by another doctor and managed to take them for about three days and then stopped. Same thing happened. Weird huh? Then when I had enough, I tried to overdose on them. But I obviously did not succeed ’cause I’m still here <grin Well, you’re over there, but I believe in ya anyway 8).
hehehe Anyway, I for one do not condemn anyone who uses meds to help them cope with their life and their abuse. I personally refuse to take anything but that is me and I don’t believe I must push my will onto someone else. I hate it when someone tries to do that with me:) We’re definitely in tune there. I don’t see anybody trying to push their will on anybody else. I see a certain amount of free-wheeling over-advocacy, though.
Yup yup (I sound like a puppy hey) <grin – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One needs to have a clear rational way of thinking in order to deal with problems. I agree even less with that 8). Why Averti? Surely one can deal with their problems when they are thinking clearly and rationally rather than being emotional and unreasonable or completely docile ’cause of the medication they are taking? How about if you are subject to fits of violence (including toward self) and wild decisions, such as many bipolars are in their manic phase? Suppose, again, our symbolic schizophrenia sufferer can’t make himself understood while unmedicated; or becomes delusional? Or forgets where he lives, or forgets to take his OTHER medication and thus dies of a stroke or a diabetic seizure? SOME people can only get into a state we call ”rational” if the hurricane that usually rages inside their mind gets tamed for a while.
Hmmm – I see your point. I never thought of it like this ie I never looked at the whole picture. Walking around with blinkers on again. Thanks Averti – you have given me some thought provoking points to dwell on. Now, don’t flame me on this, this is an honest question. Me? Flame? Shirley you jest.
names not Shirley – Tempest : T-e-m-p-e-s-t Tempest <grin some more The sedation I took was 50mg per tab and the sleeping pills were 35mg and that was strong for me and I know what it did to me. I don’t know about the other meds so maybe you will enlighten me? Pleezzzee Latch on to a copy of the Physicians Desk Reference and you will get the lowdown (and then some) on every legally prescribed drug.
Awww shucks – and I thought you were gonna help me <pout now I gotta do all the leg work myself;) Could you perhaps tell me what MS and CFS is? I still need to know what these are if you could tell me as well:) MicroSoft? That’s been driving millions of people crazy lately.
And how. Is this gonna be another thread? huh? huh?:-) Forgiveness has been over-rated of late, so it’s no wonder that the very mention of the concept bothers some people. My husband wanted to purchase some books for me. He decided against it – used his better judgment he said. They were on forgiveness. I told him it was a good thing he did’nt purchase them. Wouldn’t hurt you to READ them, at least…but that’s a personal bias of mine. I count even information that completely denies the truth as useful input.
I have been down that road Averti and am just not ready to go there again. I have too much I am dealing with right now <grin – geez my mouth is getting sore, all I do is grin:) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <averti wags finger Now, now. Don’t spend all your time looking at your friends; keep at least one eye on your enemy 8). <giggles Oh I am my friend, don’t you worry. But only a little eye – he is as much of a threat to me as I will allow him to be and I certainly don’t give him my time. Well decided. I enjoy your posts Averti. You are straight down the line – no shit – just straight talk. Wo! <turns around to see if you are addressing somebody behind me
Nope. Talking to you feller:) I have to stop myself from being intimidated by you. ??? I never set out to intimidate anybody.
I know you don’t – that does not mean I am not intimidated. This is a major area I am working on – on a daily basis – and it is hard. So don’t worry, not you at all, it is me:) Now don’t go taking advantage see?? The only form of advantage I usually take is sexual 8). And that’s more of a mutual give and take…
ooo ooo ooo – like peas in a pod <major major grin ow!! shoot!! now my mouth is really sore:) Tempest — US Voting tip: If they mention ”Family,” vote for the opponent. If they mention ”Children,” vote TWICE for the opponent.
– Tempestuous * he’s so short, you can see his * * feet on his i.d. photo *
Response:
Thanks for answering my question Rabbit now I can follow the thread with a little more knowledge Tempest – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Much depression is primarily of physical origin. What I know about in too much depth is related to MS, CFS and similar conditions. It would also appear that depression with ‘psychological’ origins can be maintained and/or reenforced by a chemical imbalance. Could you perhaps tell me what MS and CFS is? MS is Multiple Sclerosis. CFS is Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (which BTW is something quite different from chronic fatgue). These are similar nerological diseases that most commonly show up between the ages of 20 and 40. Though both can occur in childern or the elderly. Neither is well understood but there a strong suspicion that they are autoimmune disorders. For those of you in the UK CFS is known there as ME, Myalgic Encephomelitis. Which is also the name the world health organization uses.
– Tempestuous * he’s so short, you can see his * * feet on his i.d. photo *
Response:
If your only purpose is to display your arrogance and disdane for any knowledge and any view point that does not fit your preset boxes you can go play your insultingly cute word games with someone else. Your close mindedness and biggotry is on exactly the same level as the pill pushers you hate.
Response:
If your only purpose is to display your arrogance and disdane for any knowledge and any view point that does not fit your preset boxes you can go play your insultingly cute word games with someone else. Your close mindedness and biggotry is on exactly the same level as the pill pushers you hate.
I’m sorry that I pissed you off. But, really, white rabbit, if you read what I have shared with people on this topic, I do see a role for medication, have supported it as such, and have offered a place to go beyond medication, beyond the "preset boxes" you suggest I am trapped in. None of this exchange is worth the name calling here. Be careful with labels like "close-mindedness" and " bigotry" sometimes they fly around and hurt people. I am sorry. NMWFB
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am leery of our fascination with the physical mechanics of depression, we assume that they are the CAUSE of depression. Finding sources is tricky business. Within the context of this group I am leary of the veminence(sp) v-e-h-e-m-e-n-c-e with which you attack the use of psych meds, but basicly I agree with you. Doctors, therapists, profesional healers of all sorts, are very much prone to trying to force everyone into one of their predefined little boxes. And when their prefered solutuion doesn’t work they all too often blame the patient. And for the medical types it is often easier to throw pills at the problem than to take the time and effort to understand.
Someday I am going to figure out why conspiracy theories are so attractive to abuse survivors. One explanation given me years ago is that when you feel powerless, it adds some stature or meaning to your life if you can believe that vast, evil forces are conspiring to personally ruin your own personal life. Doctors putting innocent little victims into boxes and chuckling sinisterly as they plan to deliberately mistreat patients? Wooo. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey! Let’s not waste time figuring out my vehemence. It is enthusiasm. It is not nut-case *agenda time* over here. You are doing a better job of spelling out my concerns than I am. (BTW talk therapy can be just as bad or worse. Someday I’ll tell you why after 6 years I got out of the mental health field and went back to school for computer science and engineering.) Oh, I would like to hear your nightmare, for sure, and I will happily share with you, that my life was pretty much destroyed by an idiot therapist, M****** W******r, Beverly Hills, California, ( Yes, You are a Mouldy old Freudian Chicken Shit Who Poses a Clear and Present Danger to Anyone Who Wants to be Free, Please I Hope You Have Retired. I Hope You Enjoy All The Money I Threw At You To Plug Me Into Your Freudian Workbook. was this tacky? )
More typical than tacky 8). Ins’t there anybody in the english speaking world besides me whose life was NOT pretty much destroyed by some medico or other? Once again I feel depersonalized…maybe I should go to the Wizard of Oz and beg for an indignation transplant. But even given this, bridges are very important and useful things. So long as the doctor will pay enough attention to the patient and the situation so as to provide a bridge that connects where the patient is to where (s)he want to go. Of course it also helps if you build the bridge in front of, rather than on top on the person. But in a larger context I will have to strongly disagree with your assesment of depression and of psych meds. Depression can have a variety of causes and or triggers. And in some cases these are heavily and chronicly chemical. Yes, but what came first? THAT is my question. Why do we have this huge accumulation of " adult-onset" mental illness?
Do we? In the physical-damage or deficiency scenario, the person has always potentially been mentally ill, FWVO of ”ill.” Maybe the onset of puberty and the additional stresses of adult life trigger the acting out that comes from the conditions that were always there…? You can read every Psycho-pharmaceutical textbook on the planet, and it will not address the spiritual dilemma of depressed therapists " leading" depressed patients to nowhere.
If depression does not disqualify you from doing YOUR job, why should it disqualify somebody else from doing theirs? Any discipline will have faulty practitioners. Because we don’t allow that kind of talk in science! Well, I am a human being, and I will take love into account.
Me too. Not in the same ways, it appears. Now I throw you the gauntlet, white rabbit-who-has-ditched-the-profession, if you were exposed to actual instances of psychotics who walked out of insanity under their own power, how would you assimilate these instances?
Hee. I’m not the person asked, but I hasten to remind you that one of the prime traits of psychotics is the manipulation of reality–based on an interior disinterest or disregard for the ”truth.” If I were institutionalized for such a malady, I would talk my way out in short order, merely by editing what I said and did. Assuming I would WANT to walk out, of course. How would you "answer" that phenomenum? In these cases depression is not a mental illness. I will not even use that label to describe the alienation from self that diminishes expressive vitality.
If you don’t like what it does to you, if not an illness, it seems it must be a counterproductive condition. It’s not like being short of stature. That’s a deficiency that is not ”curable.” Being short of enthusiasm is. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It is a neurological illness with a mental symptom. The situations I can speak of with solid, current knowledge are CFS and MS. In both of these there are physiological changes that interfer with the production and use of serotonin and dopamine. Depending on the details of what is being affected this can cause temors or it can cause depression. In this case a SSRI such as prozac is more like using insulin. It’s also useful to note that with CFS the appropriate dosage for antidepressants is often much lower than when treating major depression. The goal isn’t to jack up one’s emotions. The goal here is to help adjust the chemical imbalance. Depression in conjunction with neurological conditions is complicated by the existance of more than one obvious cause. There are the physiological asspect I just mentioned. There may also be the emtional blow of going from being a senior engineer to being on welfare. And the chemical imbalance makes the emotional blows harder to deal with. I haven’t called you vehement or stuck in your box of belief, YET. But that sentence above has some presumptions. Those who perkily pick up the classifieds on the day they were fired, and get a job before sundown, what was their chemical ultra-balance?
You have a mean streak, Mr. Enthusiasm. If we’re supposed to take YOUR pronouncements about yourself at face value, then it would seem that it’s only decent to take another person’s pronouncements in a similar fashion. The relationship between thoughts, emotions, neurochemistry, behavior and other aspects of our health is not well understood. (To put it mildly.) Well thank-you. I am of the mind that we can learn to live with our unique chemical make ups. I have seen it happen with some ADD kids, made it happen with a couple of alleged ADD kids, and even my ossified older Thorazine doped brother, I was able to simply give him an effective tool box of strategies for dealing with his overwhelming emotions. Now he is far more vital, and better able to process his triggers.
Now we’re back at counterpremise by anecdote. We have Will, we have Cconsciousness, we can choose, we can reference, we can seek others, we have power over the ways we choose to express our emotions, AH, I JUST THREW THE PIANO OFF THE BALCONY, GOD DAMN IT anyways, we can do more with our Will than I have seen represented in the Establishment. Think about our culture as you figure these conundrums through, would the Establishment want Free Will in the citizen’s tool boxes?
The *Establishment*? Oi. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Or would it rather have people prostrate themselves to their doctors? Just as neurochemical changes can throw our emotions into a tail spin, our emotions also affect our physical processes. I’m convinced that while modern (some whould say western) medicine has been very effective in treating the most obvious threats to our health, such as infectous disease, what it has been so effect against have been the simple cases. And even with these we starting to get some backlash, such as drug resistant infections. And lithium poisoning and Prozac psychosis, and Thorazine sludge, and kidney damage, ad nauseum. Darn, this isn’t heading where I wanted to go to wrap this up. Basicly I think you have an important piece of truth but are getting so wrapped up in it that you are failing to see other pieces that are also important. Failing to see the other pieces???? I have smelled, tasted, swallowed, digested, and passed the other pieces, almost as good as Rabbit Stew.
I think the idea was that you might benefit by seeing other people’s other pieces. NMWFB Never Medicate Wily Foolish Bunnies Well, I exploded my contribution to the thread too. ; – }
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I say that antidepressants can be a godsend, and represent a giant step up from being glued to my chair, unable to get up and go to work or take care of myself. I hate being non-functional, but it has happened. Car comes into the shop overheating. Mechanic looks at boiling radiator, " it’s your radiator." puts water in it, you go down the road, but that was not the true source of the problem. The true source of the problem was the silicone glob that the same mechanic used last week to seal the carburetor flange gasket, that clogged up the vacumn advance unit to the distributor and caused retarded timing which ioverheats the engine. I don’t think it’s a valid analogy. Cars don’t go through emotional cycles, nor do they heal.
It is not a valid analogy when you miss the analogy. The MORAL of the story is the car doctor did not diagnose the source of the problem correctly, even though he addressed and mitigated the symptoms. I hope you’ll pardon a literal example: suturing a wound doesn’t heal the cut, but it stops me from bleeding to death in the meantime. Sorry about the nasty example. I think I must be in a mood.
Hey, you like swords… Sometimes the sources of depression are given short shrift, but sometimes, even when they aren’t, depression and other mental illnesses don’t always respond to self-exploration.
Particularly with depressed therapists. Now I may get into hot water here, but too bad. I bet half of all therapists, easily, are alienated from their child-vitality. They cannot bring you back to yours. Hell, even when self-knowledge can reduce depression, it can takes *years* to become effective.
So use the bridge! Take the bridge! " Self-knowledge" isn’t even what it is about. Insight therapy is limited. Self knowledge, as Alan MacFarlane would ramblingly tell you, is a mind game. EXPERIENCING YOURSELF, is different. That brings you your emotional vitality. No depression in emotional vitality. That’s a long trip for someone who can’t function right now. I need to advance, but in the meantime I don’t want to be institutionalized, and I don’t (at least right now) want to suicide. The true source of depression, IMHO, Stop. I know it’s your opinion and all, but I think this is where you start taking flack. Are you telling me that you have your opinion about the true source of *my* depression?
Good Lord, was I talking to you? How could I be rendering an opinion on *your* depression, then get pasted with " presumptuous"? I am talking about depression, the universal human feeling of flatness. Can WE get through some general statements? Here, lets practice: IMHO sun burns sting like a bitch. Am I talking about your sunburn? NO! Just a little universal experience. Kind of presumptuous, don’t you think? You don’t know enough about me to tell me that.
No more presumptuous than some doctor telling you your chemistry is fucked up, take a pill, pay up, bye-bye. and far more interested in your life, your feelings, your history, your experience, your dilemmas, your moments where your vital expression was shut down in the name of good manners. Your response here baffles me. You split my opinion in half here. Read it and give me a personal response to the BELOW. is the alienation from our true selves that occurs as we try to meet our parents and the world’s needs as young sensitive children. We sacrifice our inner reality.
Answer this honestly. When was the last time you laughed so quickly that milk sprayed out your nose? NMWFB
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I am leery of our fascination with the physical mechanics of depression, we assume that they are the CAUSE of depression. Finding sources is tricky business. Within the context of this group I am leary of the veminence(sp)
v-e-h-e-m-e-n-c-e with which you attack the use of psych meds, but basicly I agree with you. Doctors, therapists, profesional healers of all sorts, are very much prone to trying to force everyone into one of their predefined little boxes. And when their prefered solutuion doesn’t work they all too often blame the patient. And for the medical types it is often easier to throw pills at the problem than to take the time and effort to understand.
Hey! Let’s not waste time figuring out my vehemence. It is enthusiasm. It is not nut-case *agenda time* over here. You are doing a better job of spelling out my concerns than I am. (BTW talk therapy can be just as bad or worse. Someday I’ll tell you why after 6 years I got out of the mental health field and went back to school for computer science and engineering.)
Oh, I would like to hear your nightmare, for sure, and I will happily share with you, that my life was pretty much destroyed by an idiot therapist, M****** W******r, Beverly Hills, California, ( Yes, You are a Mouldy old Freudian Chicken Shit Who Poses a Clear and Present Danger to Anyone Who Wants to be Free, Please I Hope You Have Retired. I Hope You Enjoy All The Money I Threw At You To Plug Me Into Your Freudian Workbook. was this tacky? ) But even given this, bridges are very important and useful things. So long as the doctor will pay enough attention to the patient and the situation so as to provide a bridge that connects where the patient is to where (s)he want to go. Of course it also helps if you build the bridge in front of, rather than on top on the person. But in a larger context I will have to strongly disagree with your assesment of depression and of psych meds. Depression can have a variety of causes and or triggers. And in some cases these are heavily and chronicly chemical.
Yes, but what came first? THAT is my question. Why do we have this huge accumulation of " adult-onset" mental illness? You can read every Psycho-pharmaceutical textbook on the planet, and it will not address the spiritual dilemma of depressed therapists " leading" depressed patients to nowhere. Because we don’t allow that kind of talk in science! Well, I am a human being, and I will take love into account. Now I throw you the gauntlet, white rabbit-who-has-ditched-the-profession, if you were exposed to actual instances of psychotics who walked out of insanity under their own power, how would you assimilate these instances? How would you "answer" that phenomenum? In these cases depression is not a mental illness.
I will not even use that label to describe the alienation from self that diminishes expressive vitality. It is a neurological illness with a mental symptom. The situations I can speak of with solid, current knowledge are CFS and MS. In both of these there are physiological changes that interfer with the production and use of serotonin and dopamine. Depending on the details of what is being affected this can cause temors or it can cause depression. In this case a SSRI such as prozac is more like using insulin. It’s also useful to note that with CFS the appropriate dosage for antidepressants is often much lower than when treating major depression. The goal isn’t to jack up one’s emotions. The goal here is to help adjust the chemical imbalance. Depression in conjunction with neurological conditions is complicated by the existance of more than one obvious cause. There are the physiological asspect I just mentioned. There may also be the emtional blow of going from being a senior engineer to being on welfare. And the chemical imbalance makes the emotional blows harder to deal with.
I haven’t called you vehement or stuck in your box of belief, YET. But that sentence above has some presumptions. Those who perkily pick up the classifieds on the day they were fired, and get a job before sundown, what was their chemical ultra-balance? The relationship between thoughts, emotions, neurochemistry, behavior and other aspects of our health is not well understood. (To put it mildly.)
Well thank-you. I am of the mind that we can learn to live with our unique chemical make ups. I have seen it happen with some ADD kids, made it happen with a couple of alleged ADD kids, and even my ossified older Thorazine doped brother, I was able to simply give him an effective tool box of strategies for dealing with his overwhelming emotions. Now he is far more vital, and better able to process his triggers. We have Will, we have Cconsciousness, we can choose, we can reference, we can seek others, we have power over the ways we choose to express our emotions, AH, I JUST THREW THE PIANO OFF THE BALCONY, GOD DAMN IT anyways, we can do more with our Will than I have seen represented in the Establishment. Think about our culture as you figure these conundrums through, would the Establishment want Free Will in the citizen’s tool boxes? Or would it rather have people prostrate themselves to their doctors? Just as neurochemical changes can throw our emotions into a tail spin, our emotions also affect our physical processes. I’m convinced that while modern (some whould say western) medicine has been very effective in treating the most obvious threats to our health, such as infectous disease, what it has been so effect against have been the simple cases. And even with these we starting to get some backlash, such as drug resistant infections.
And lithium poisoning and Prozac psychosis, and Thorazine sludge, and kidney damage, ad nauseum. Darn, this isn’t heading where I wanted to go to wrap this up. Basicly I think you have an important piece of truth but are getting so wrapped up in it that you are failing to see other pieces that are also important.
Failing to see the other pieces???? I have smelled, tasted, swallowed, digested, and passed the other pieces, almost as good as Rabbit Stew. NMWFB Never Medicate Wily Foolish Bunnies Well, I exploded my contribution to the thread too. ; – }
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Hey I see my name in print:) Yo Averti – wondered where you had bin hidin’ yoself.:) Whatdaya think of my new nick huh huh???
I like it a lot 8). it sounds exotic. Have I been hiding? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi:) There are a few topics being discussed here that I wish I could follow but which are so wrapped up in people anger and flaming that the solid discussion is hard to keep track of. I find this sometimes too. So much said from all different points of view. It is extremely difficult to keep track. I find that it’s not necessary to keep track 8). But then I increasingly live in the moment. If you (for some strange reason) want me to read it today, say it today. If you want me to remember it tomorrow… say it again 8). Read this today K:)
Right this very now 8). I like to try and keep track of the posts ’cause I might just miss something that has been said and just say the same thing or I could step on someone’s toes by misinterpreting the post ’cause of having missed out on some of them. But, I s’pose that is the perfectionist part of me rearing it’s ugly head.:)
I know a LOT of people who strive to be perfect. None of them have made it yet 8). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One is the topic of psych meds. Someone, NNWFB I think, made a very harsh condemnation of all psych meds and touched off quite a flame war. But he (she? I think this person is male but am not sure why. Please forgive me if I’m wrong.) raises some good points. I strongly disagree with his absolutist stand but have to agree in part with some of his reasoning. One term he does not use makes me wonder how old he is. If he were my age or older I would expect these arguements to include the term ‘chemical straight jackets.’ It has been a long time since I’ve heard this term. And longer since I’ve heard it used favorably. But that is what these arguement brought to mind. Meds given, not to benefit the patient so much as for the convienence of the doctors and hospital staff. The term has gone out of style but the thought processes that lead to it are still common. I recall it well. I think in the current picture, there’s a strong difference between heavy sedation to keep people from banging their heads against the wall (or somebody elses head) and milder medications that _influence_ rather than straitjacket. Antidepressants are a common example of doctors just throwing pills at a problem they don’t understand. But the worst and most common examples of this approach to medicine have to be antibiotics. I at least have found some good doctors that don’t just prescribe for whatever reason. I have had exposure to doctors who will just write out a script when I asked for it and were not really bothered by what was ailing me. My son had toncilitis and was given antibiotic after antibiotic and I, trusting the alledged learned ones, administered them faithfully until some kind soul introduced me to homeopathic remedies. I respect your POV and your anecdote, but here you are trading something that has at least been scientifically examined, for something that granny made out of bark and roots. Aaahhh, but many a dentist and doctor has stated that the continual use of penicillin (sp) can cause a problem with the teeth of children.
This is a case of misapplication. If you sprinkle salt on your food, that’s one thing. If you eat a box of salt, it could kill you. Setting aside the rather obvious notion that if you have a life-threatening infection, you can get along without teeth if that’s what is sacrificed in order to save the rest of you. Also, with continual use of an antibiotic it can render itself helpless because the child’s immune system builds up a resistance against the goodness in the antibiotic.
Quite true. Antibiotics are not really in the same league with the drugs we were discussing, though. There no such thing as a permanent, ongoing, therapuetic dose of penicillin. Also, my son was on the penicillin (sp) for approx 4 months – the doctors did not want to remove the tonsils. And, he had one course of the homeopathic stuff and never again got toncilitis.:) Now, this might have been purely co-incidental or maybe eventually the antibiotics worked but, I prefer in my comfort zone, to believe that it was the homeopathic stuff that did the trick –
That’s certainly up to you. There’s doubt that homeopathic remedies work for some people in some cases. But what’s IN them is similar to the stuff that comes out of the big drug companies. If you got stabbed 500 years ago, the local midwife or barber would pack the wound with moldy bread. Nobody knew WHY it worked, Now we know it worked because certain kinds of mold IS an antibitoic, and does cure infection. (Or, if it’s moldy rye bread, makes you see flying witches and saints climbing ladders 8)). also, we moved from one city to another and maybe the climate also had something to do with it. I am just extremely nervous of antibiotics and will only use them as a last resort.:)
Again, it’s up to you. I don’t feel threatened that there is more than roster of things to try when your health needs repairing; I think it’s all to the good. I’ve had periods where I was simultaneously undergoing massage therapy, chiropractic, and acupuncture (well, not simultaneously, but concurrently serially, I guess 8)). The ”There’s Only One True Way” mindset is not for me. I do love your words regarding granny and the barks and roots:)
My actual granny was a Native Person and probably never touched a root in her 88 years 8). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There’s no question homeopathy helps many conditions, but that is generally because the ingredients in the ”natural” substances are like entry-level versions of the chemical compounds the scientists work up. Foxglove plant ”containing” digitalis, for example. You can use to help heart and blood pressure problems (or to kill somebody) not b/c it is a plant, but b/c it contains useful chemical substances. I have no comment on this part ’cause my knowledge of homeopathic remedies is extremely small – the only one I know about is Toncilite:) My son was on antibiotics for a good three to four months and this ‘toncilite’ (sp) sorted his problem out with one course. His teeth were of course ruined by the antibiotics. However, I consider the realization of the chemical basis for depression and other ‘psychiatric disorders’ to be a major advancement. Used properly they are a god send. But they are not cure-alls. And they do need to be matched to the patient. Used incorrectly they just mask feelings or worse. Used properly they bring feelings into balance. This is true. It is no good being ‘doped up’ in order to cope with life. I can’t entirely agree with a sweeping statement like that. SOME doped up people–schizophrenics, for example–wouldn’t be able to LIVE a life, without meds. I suppose I based this post on my personal experiences and probably should have stated that at the beginning or somewhere in it. For me, when I used sedatives and sleeping pills, I lost a whole lot of time, I could not cope with my life ’cause I was so doped up, I could not think clearly, rationally, or otherwise.
That’s not surprising. When I used to self-medicate with alcohol and morphine sulfate derivitives, _I_ lost a whole lot of time (and my lunch, usually). So THAT was not the correct’and beneficial drug therapy for me. Then when I had enough, I tried to overdose on them. But I obviously did not succeed ’cause I’m still here <grin
Well, you’re over there, but I believe in ya anyway 8). Anyway, I for one do not condemn anyone who uses meds to help them cope with their life and their abuse. I personally refuse to take anything but that is me and I don’t believe I must push my will onto someone else. I hate it when someone tries to do that with me:)
We’re definitely in tune there. I don’t see anybody trying to push their will on anybody else. I see a certain amount of free-wheeling over-advocacy, though. One needs to have a clear rational way of thinking in order to deal with problems. I agree even less with that 8). Why Averti? Surely one can deal with their problems when they are thinking clearly and rationally rather than being emotional and unreasonable or completely docile ’cause of the medication they are taking?
How about if you are subject to fits of violence (including toward self) and wild decisions, such as many bipolars are in their manic phase? Suppose, again, our symbolic schizophrenia sufferer can’t make himself understood while unmedicated; or becomes delusional? Or forgets where he lives, or forgets to take his OTHER medication and thus dies of a stroke or a diabetic seizure? SOME people can only get into a state we call ”rational” if the hurricane that usually rages inside their mind gets tamed for a while. Now, don’t flame me on this, this is an honest question.
Me? Flame? Shirley you jest. The sedation I took was 50mg per tab and the sleeping pills were 35mg and that was strong for me and I know what it did to me. I don’t know about the other meds so maybe you will enlighten me? Pleezzzee
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Much depression is primarily of physical origin. What I know about in too much depth is related to MS, CFS and similar conditions. It would also appear that depression with ‘psychological’ origins can be maintained and/or reenforced by a chemical imbalance. Could you perhaps tell me what MS and CFS is?
MS is Multiple Sclerosis. CFS is Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (which BTW is something quite different from chronic fatgue). These are similar nerological diseases that most commonly show up between the ages of 20 and 40. Though both can occur in childern or the elderly. Neither is well understood but there a strong suspicion that they are autoimmune disorders. For those of you in the UK CFS is known there as ME, Myalgic Encephomelitis. Which is also the name the world health organization uses.
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Wow! My server says your response showed up just 7 minutes after my post. That’s quick! The Net Fairies must have the night off, maybe halloween has them tuckered out. I check on IRC for you since you are on right now, but as usual there is no one except for my morning when I have to work, hate that! I wanted to apologize because it took so much away from the group and I see no progress as a result. It sure drained me emotionally and physically. This would have been no problem if HK could have heard any of it, but the evidence is to the contrary, so I think it all equals a negative and I feel bad for it as I fear I was a significant contributor. I mean if I had not called him on certain things they may have gone unnoticed and that would have been the end of it. Didn’t even get a decent apology to Celeste and the rest of the group. Didn’t even do one little bit of good. I am sad and tired. I am glad for halloween though, It seems to have picked up quite a few people around here. We need more of that. I am glad you are feeling so good, you deserve it to last for the next fifty years at least. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – James, Don’t apologise. Well you can if you want but I don’t see the need. And I read your contributions every one of them it saved me reading housekeeps which (sorry HK1) I have filtered out. So I thank you. Thats it. Sera There are a few topics being discussed here that I wish I could follow but which are so wrapped up in people anger and flaming that the solid discussion is hard to keep track of. <snip The other topic I would like to be more able to follow is on forgiveness. But this has gotten so wrapped up in anger at the comments of someone named housekeeping that I can’t follow the important stuff. Apologies for my contribution.
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Hi James, No I don’t go on IRC if it is on efnet it won’t let me log on, if anyone can help me with this, I would enjoy the odd chat. Sera. Thanks James. btw I am on ICQ are you? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wow! My server says your response showed up just 7 minutes after my post. That’s quick! The Net Fairies must have the night off, maybe halloween has them tuckered out. I check on IRC for you since you are on right now, but as usual there is no one except for my morning when I have to work, hate that! I wanted to apologize because it took so much away from the group and I see no progress as a result. It sure drained me emotionally and physically. This would have been no problem if HK could have heard any of it, but the evidence is to the contrary, so I think it all equals a negative and I feel bad for it as I fear I was a significant contributor. I mean if I had not called him on certain things they may have gone unnoticed and that would have been the end of it. Didn’t even get a decent apology to Celeste and the rest of the group. Didn’t even do one little bit of good. I am sad and tired. I am glad for halloween though, It seems to have picked up quite a few people around here. We need more of that. I am glad you are feeling so good, you deserve it to last for the next fifty years at least. James, Don’t apologise. Well you can if you want but I don’t see the need. And I read your contributions every one of them it saved me reading housekeeps which (sorry HK1) I have filtered out. So I thank you. Thats it. Sera There are a few topics being discussed here that I wish I could follow but which are so wrapped up in people anger and flaming that the solid discussion is hard to keep track of. <snip The other topic I would like to be more able to follow is on forgiveness. But this has gotten so wrapped up in anger at the comments of someone named housekeeping that I can’t follow the important stuff. Apologies for my contribution.
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Hi White Rabbit, How are you? I think you have valid points, trouble is the only way that everyone can put there opinion across here is in their words, we have no facial expression or too much background knowlege of the individuals involved. My point! Well we are a diverse bunch of people, I like that. I agreed with some of the points that Nem wrote but as I feel I need to take anti-depressants I obviously disagree with a lot too. However if I had my own personal therapist with me 24 hours a day, then I probably wouldn’t need to take them, unless the therp pissed me off! I need help and if help doesn’t come in the human form then I have to accept the little pill. Take what help I can get from stopping me falling down too far. You refer to anger, and yes I think you are right but I also believe that we are all entitled to our anger, the only way to sort things out really is to dump our feelings out for all to view. Some subjects are always going to encourage a spirited! discussion. Peoples thoughts about religion and medication for example differ to drastically that there can never be any kind of agreement. Except an agreement to disagree. I tend to try and stay away from some of those, triggers me. And you can always start a new thread like you have done here. My opinion regarding both matters you raise, is a bit useless! hehehe I don’t know myself enough let alone about other matters. Forgiveness for me is something that scares me a lot. Medication is something I need but would prefer to not take. There thats me! Big talker about nothing and little talker about the subjects you raised!!!!! Oh well. Sorry for jumping on here. Sera. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There are a few topics being discussed here that I wish I could follow but which are so wrapped up in people anger and flaming that the solid discussion is hard to keep track of. One is the topic of psych meds. Someone, NNWFB I think, made a very harsh condemnation of all psych meds and touched off quite a flame war. But he (she? I think this person is male but am not sure why. Please forgive me if I’m wrong.) raises some good points. I strongly disagree with his absolutist stand but have to agree in part with some of his reasoning. One term he does not use makes me wonder how old he is. If he were my age or older I would expect these arguements to include the term ‘chemical straight jackets.’ It has been a long time since I’ve heard this term. And longer since I’ve heard it used favorably. But that is what these arguement brought to mind. Meds given, not to benefit the patient so much as for the convienence of the doctors and hospital staff. The term has gone out of style but the thought processes that lead to it are still common. Antidepressants are a common example of doctors just throwing pills at a problem they don’t understand. But the worst and most common examples of this approach to medicine have to be antibiotics. However, I consider the realization of the chemical basis for depression and other ‘psychiatric disorders’ to be a major advancement. Used properly they are a god send. But they are not cure-alls. And they do need to be matched to the patient. Used incorrectly they just mask feelings or worse. Used properly they bring feelings into balance. Much depression is primarily of physical origin. What I know about in too much depth is related to MS, CFS and similar conditions. It would also appear that depression with ‘psychological’ origins can be maintained and/or reenforced by a chemical imbalance. So I would have to argue that this rant was aimed at the wrong target. The problem is not with psych meds, but with doctors that use them as a quick and easy cure-all. The horror stories he alludes to are real. He just mistakes the tool for the culprit. The other topic I would like to be more able to follow is on forgiveness. But this has gotten so wrapped up in anger at the comments of someone named housekeeping that I can’t follow the important stuff.
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There are a few topics being discussed here that I wish I could follow but which are so wrapped up in people anger and flaming that the solid discussion is hard to keep track of. Jump in! The water’s great! One is the topic of psych meds. Someone, NNWFB I think, made a very harsh condemnation of all psych meds and touched off quite a flame war. But he (she? I think this person is male but am not sure why. Please forgive me if I’m wrong.) raises some good points. I strongly disagree with his absolutist stand but have to agree in part with some of his reasoning. to meet you, and my absolutism is very amenable to rebuke or revision. ‘chemical straight jackets.’ strait jackets However, I consider the realization of the chemical basis for depression and other ‘psychiatric disorders’ to be a major advancement. Used properly they are a god send. But they are not cure-alls. And they do need to be matched to the patient. Used incorrectly they just mask feelings or worse. Used properly they bring feelings into balance. This is good solid thoughtful stuff. I am leery of one thing, however, and that is our fascination with the physical mechanics of depression, we assume that they are the CAUSE of depression.
Here’s where I have to ask that great question: whatcha mean "we"? I say that antidepressants can be a godsend, and represent a giant step up from being glued to my chair, unable to get up and go to work or take care of myself. I hate being non-functional, but it has happened. Now me, I don’t assume that the lack of the proper pills _caused_ my depression. I do assume that my depression was at least partly chemical in nature, given the role that chemistry had in breaking that depressive cycle, but that doesn’t make the lack of the ameliorating agent into the cause. Car comes into the shop overheating. Mechanic looks at boiling radiator, " it’s your radiator." puts water in it, you go down the road, but that was not the true source of the problem. The true source of the problem was the silicone glob that the same mechanic used last week to seal the carburetor flange gasket, that clogged up the vacumn advance unit to the distributor and caused retarded timing which ioverheats the engine.
I don’t think it’s a valid analogy. Cars don’t go through emotional cycles, nor do they heal. I hope you’ll pardon a literal example: suturing a wound doesn’t heal the cut, but it stops me from bleeding to death in the meantime. Sorry about the nasty example. I think I must be in a mood. I agree that drugs are often misused. I’ve been mis-medicated enough myself to know that, as have most people. Doesn’t mean that medication is _always_ incorrect. Finding sources is tricky business. I sincerely and non-absolutistly believe that the true sources of depression are being given short shrift by those who profit, or *cannot look within themselves deeply enough* to sense the true sources of depression. A therapist who is playing the adult game correctly and is rewarded nicely, will not know of the deep struggle across from him/her , of someone trying to reconnect with their true self.
I don’t disagree, but I do want to extend that a bit. Sometimes the sources of depression are given short shrift, but sometimes, even when they aren’t, depression and other mental illnesses don’t always respond to self-exploration. Hell, even when self-knowledge can reduce depression, it can takes *years* to become effective. That’s a long trip for someone who can’t function right now. I need to advance, but in the meantime I don’t want to be institutionalized, and I don’t (at least right now) want to suicide. My sister the shrink is a perfect example. She has been richly rewarded for her Harvard education, but I KNOW she is alienated from the little girl she was, I know she cannot truly sense the struggle in her patients to reconnect with their prior vitality. Her therapeutic method is all about "responsible, productive, adjustment," not aiming at the puddles for a bigger splash.
Sorry to hear that. The true source of depression, IMHO,
Stop. I know it’s your opinion and all, but I think this is where you start taking flack. Are you telling me that you have your opinion about the true source of *my* depression? Kind of presumptuous, don’t you think? You don’t know enough about me to tell me that. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -is the alienation from our true selves that occurs as we try to meet our parents and the world’s needs as young sensitive children. We sacrifice our inner reality. I wonder if there is a correlation between " maturity" and depression? Much depression is primarily of physical origin. What I know about in too much depth is related to MS, CFS and similar conditions. It would also appear that depression with ‘psychological’ origins can be maintained and/or reenforced by a chemical imbalance. So I would have to argue that this rant was aimed at the wrong target. The problem is not with psych meds, but with doctors that use them as a quick and easy cure-all. The horror stories he alludes to are real. He just mistakes the tool for the culprit. I will reiterate as gratingly as chalk shrieking across the blackboard, that psychotropic medications are but a bridge.
If you want to believe that, fine. I don’t, though, and stating it like a fact is… well, let me call it "provocative". Don’t be surprised that people disagree. The other topic I would like to be more able to follow is on forgiveness. But this has gotten so wrapped up in anger at the comments of someone named housekeeping that I can’t follow the important stuff. Sure you can… Here’s how: Tell your eyeballs to skip over the little testy exchanges. Follow Carey, she is good at it. NMWFB
Swords Take ".protect" out of the address for replies. Use anon-19589 at anon.twwells.com for anon email
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – snip< However, I consider the realization of the chemical basis for depression and other ‘psychiatric disorders’ to be a major advancement. Used properly they are a god send. But they are not cure-alls. And they do need to be matched to the patient. Used incorrectly they just mask feelings or worse. Used properly they bring feelings into balance. This is good solid thoughtful stuff. I am leery of one thing, however, and that is our fascination with the physical mechanics of depression, we assume that they are the CAUSE of depression. Car comes into the shop overheating. Mechanic looks at boiling radiator, " it’s your radiator." puts water in it, you go down the road, but that was not the true source of the problem. The true source of the problem was the silicone glob that the same mechanic used last week to seal the carburetor flange gasket, that clogged up the vacumn advance unit to the distributor and caused retarded timing which ioverheats the engine. Finding sources is tricky business. I sincerely and non-absolutistly believe that the true sources of depression are being given short shrift by those who profit, or *cannot look within themselves deeply enough* to sense the true sources of depression. A therapist who is playing the adult game correctly and is rewarded nicely, will not know of the deep struggle across from him/her , of someone trying to reconnect with their true self. My sister the shrink is a perfect example. She has been richly rewarded for her Harvard education, but I KNOW she is alienated from the little girl she was, I know she cannot truly sense the struggle in her patients to reconnect with their prior vitality. Her therapeutic method is all about "responsible, productive, adjustment," not aiming at the puddles for a bigger splash.The true source of depression, IMHO, is the alienation from our true selves that occurs as we try to meet our parents and the world’s needs as young sensitive children. We sacrifice our inner reality. I wonder if there is a correlation between " maturity" and depression? Much depression is primarily of physical origin. What I know about in too much depth is related to MS, CFS and similar conditions. It would also appear that depression with ‘psychological’ origins can be maintained and/or reenforced by a chemical imbalance. So I would have to argue that this rant was aimed at the wrong target. The problem is not with psych meds, but with doctors that use them as a quick and easy cure-all. The horror stories he alludes to are real. He just mistakes the tool for the culprit. I will reiterate as gratingly as chalk shrieking across the blackboard, that psychotropic medications are but a bridge.
Within the context of this group I am leary of the veminence(sp) with which you attack the use of psych meds, but basicly I agree with you. Doctors, therapists, profesional healers of all sorts, are very much prone to trying to force everyone into one of their predefined little boxes. And when their prefered solutuion doesn’t work they all too often blame the patient. And for the medical types it is often easier to throw pills at the problem than to take the time and effort to understand. And if the pills reduce symptoms the most concern the doctor, then they are considered successful and proper regardles of other conciderations. Including the objections or concerns of the patient. (BTW talk therapy can be just as bad or worse. Someday I’ll tell you why after 6 years I got out of the mental health field and went back to school for computer science and engineering.) But even given this, bridges are very important and useful things. So long as the doctor will pay enough attention to the patient and the situation so as to provide a bridge that connects where the patient is to where (s)he want to go. Of course it also helps if you build the bridge in front of, rather than on top on the person. But in a larger context I will have to strongly disagree with your assesment of depression and of psych meds. Depression can have a variety of causes and or triggers. And in some cases these are heavily and chronicly chemical. In these cases depression is not a mental illness. It is a neurological illness with a mental symptom. The situations I can speak of with solid, current knowledge are CFS and MS. In both of these there are physiological changes that interfer with the production and use of serotonin and dopamine. Depending on the details of what is being affected this can cause temors or it can cause depression. In this case a SSRI such as prozac is more like using insulin. It’s also useful to note that with CFS the appropriate dosage for antidepressants is often much lower than when treating major depression. The goal isn’t to jack up one’s emotions. The goal here is to help adjust the chemical imbalance. Depression in conjunction with neurological conditions is complicated by the existance of more than one obvious cause. There are the physiological asspect I just mentioned. There may also be the emtional blow of going from being a senior engineer to being on welfare. And the chemical imbalance makes the emotional blows harder to deal with. The relationship between thoughts, emotions, neurochemistry, behavior and other aspects of our health is not well understood. (To put it mildly.) Just as neurochemical changes can throw our emotions into a tail spin, our emotions also affect our physical processes. I’m convinced that while modern (some whould say western) medicine has been very effective in treating the most obvious threats to our health, such as infectous disease, what it has been so effect against have been the simple cases. And even with these we starting to get some backlash, such as drug resistant infections. Darn, this isn’t heading where I wanted to go to wrap this up. Basicly I think you have an important piece of truth but are getting so wrapped up in it that you are failing to see other pieces that are also important. has
Response:
I will get together a list of all EFNET Server I know of and post it. Have a very nice day. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi James, No I don’t go on IRC if it is on efnet it won’t let me log on, if anyone can help me with this, I would enjoy the odd chat. Sera. Thanks James. btw I am on ICQ are you? Wow! My server says your response showed up just 7 minutes after my post. That’s quick! The Net Fairies must have the night off, maybe halloween has them tuckered out. I check on IRC for you since you are on right now, but as usual there is no one except for my morning when I have to work, hate that! I wanted to apologize because it took so much away from the group and I see no progress as a result. It sure drained me emotionally and physically. This would have been no problem if HK could have heard any of it, but the evidence is to the contrary, so I think it all equals a negative and I feel bad for it as I fear I was a significant contributor. I mean if I had not called him on certain things they may have gone unnoticed and that would have been the end of it. Didn’t even get a decent apology to Celeste and the rest of the group. Didn’t even do one little bit of good. I am sad and tired. I am glad for halloween though, It seems to have picked up quite a few people around here. We need more of that. I am glad you are feeling so good, you deserve it to last for the next fifty years at least. James, Don’t apologise. Well you can if you want but I don’t see the need. And I read your contributions every one of them it saved me reading housekeeps which (sorry HK1) I have filtered out. So I thank you. Thats it. Sera There are a few topics being discussed here that I wish I could follow but which are so wrapped up in people anger and flaming that the solid discussion is hard to keep track of. <snip The other topic I would like to be more able to follow is on forgiveness. But this has gotten so wrapped up in anger at the comments of someone named housekeeping that I can’t follow the important stuff. Apologies for my contribution.
Response:
Hi:) There are a few topics being discussed here that I wish I could follow but which are so wrapped up in people anger and flaming that the solid discussion is hard to keep track of. I find this sometimes too. So much said from all different points of view. It is extremely difficult to keep track.
I find that it’s not necessary to keep track 8). But then I increasingly live in the moment. If you (for some strange reason) want me to read it today, say it today. If you want me to remember it tomorrow… say it again 8). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One is the topic of psych meds. Someone, NNWFB I think, made a very harsh condemnation of all psych meds and touched off quite a flame war. But he (she? I think this person is male but am not sure why. Please forgive me if I’m wrong.) raises some good points. I strongly disagree with his absolutist stand but have to agree in part with some of his reasoning. One term he does not use makes me wonder how old he is. If he were my age or older I would expect these arguements to include the term ‘chemical straight jackets.’ It has been a long time since I’ve heard this term. And longer since I’ve heard it used favorably. But that is what these arguement brought to mind. Meds given, not to benefit the patient so much as for the convienence of the doctors and hospital staff. The term has gone out of style but the thought processes that lead to it are still common.
I recall it well. I think in the current picture, there’s a strong difference between heavy sedation to keep people from banging their heads against the wall (or somebody elses head) and milder medications that _influence_ rather than straitjacket. Antidepressants are a common example of doctors just throwing pills at a problem they don’t understand. But the worst and most common examples of this approach to medicine have to be antibiotics. I at least have found some good doctors that don’t just prescribe for whatever reason. I have had exposure to doctors who will just write out a script when I asked for it and were not really bothered by what was ailing me. My son had toncilitis and was given antibiotic after antibiotic and I, trusting the alledged learned ones, administered them faithfully until some kind soul introduced me to homeopathic remedies.
I respect your POV and your anecdote, but here you are trading something that has at least been scientifically examined, for something that granny made out of bark and roots. There’s no question homeopathy helps many conditions, but that is generally because the ingredients in the ”natural” substances are like entry-level versions of the chemical compounds the scientists work up. Foxglove plant ”containing” digitalis, for example. You can use to help heart and blood pressure problems (or to kill somebody) not b/c it is a plant, but b/c it contains useful chemical substances. My son was on antibiotics for a good three to four months and this ‘toncilite’ (sp) sorted his problem out with one course. His teeth were of course ruined by the antibiotics. However, I consider the realization of the chemical basis for depression and other ‘psychiatric disorders’ to be a major advancement. Used properly they are a god send. But they are not cure-alls. And they do need to be matched to the patient. Used incorrectly they just mask feelings or worse. Used properly they bring feelings into balance. This is true. It is no good being ‘doped up’ in order to cope with life.
I can’t entirely agree with a sweeping statement like that. SOME doped up people–schizophrenics, for example–wouldn’t be able to LIVE a life, without meds. One needs to have a clear rational way of thinking in order to deal with problems.
I agree even less with that 8). If they are used correctly, antidepressents are a good thing ’cause they can bring feelings into balance as you stated above. Much depression is primarily of physical origin. What I know about in too much depth is related to MS, CFS and similar conditions. It would also appear that depression with ‘psychological’ origins can be maintained and/or reenforced by a chemical imbalance. Could you perhaps tell me what MS and CFS is? The other topic I would like to be more able to follow is on forgiveness. But this has gotten so wrapped up in anger at the comments of someone named housekeeping that I can’t follow the important stuff.
Forgiveness has been over-rated of late, so it’s no wonder that the very mention of the concept bothers some people. Can’t comment here I’m afraid ’cause I’m just as angry at his intrusion. I just ignore his comments and read the comments of those who I feel have something of significance to say.
<averti wags finger Now, now. Don’t spend all your time looking at your friends; keep at least one eye on your enemy 8). Tempest — Tempestuous storm in a tea cup? * no way hos`e – hehe *
– I’m not a _complete_ fool; I had my tonsils and appendix removed.
Response:
Hey I see my name in print:) Yo Averti – wondered where you had bin hidin’ yoself.:) Whatdaya think of my new nick huh huh??? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi:) There are a few topics being discussed here that I wish I could follow but which are so wrapped up in people anger and flaming that the solid discussion is hard to keep track of. I find this sometimes too. So much said from all different points of view. It is extremely difficult to keep track. I find that it’s not necessary to keep track 8). But then I increasingly live in the moment. If you (for some strange reason) want me to read it today, say it today. If you want me to remember it tomorrow… say it again 8).
Read this today K:) I like to try and keep track of the posts ’cause I might just miss something that has been said and just say the same thing or I could step on someone’s toes by misinterpreting the post ’cause of having missed out on some of them. But, I s’pose that is the perfectionist part of me rearing it’s ugly head.:) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One is the topic of psych meds. Someone, NNWFB I think, made a very harsh condemnation of all psych meds and touched off quite a flame war. But he (she? I think this person is male but am not sure why. Please forgive me if I’m wrong.) raises some good points. I strongly disagree with his absolutist stand but have to agree in part with some of his reasoning. One term he does not use makes me wonder how old he is. If he were my age or older I would expect these arguements to include the term ‘chemical straight jackets.’ It has been a long time since I’ve heard this term. And longer since I’ve heard it used favorably. But that is what these arguement brought to mind. Meds given, not to benefit the patient so much as for the convienence of the doctors and hospital staff. The term has gone out of style but the thought processes that lead to it are still common. I recall it well. I think in the current picture, there’s a strong difference between heavy sedation to keep people from banging their heads against the wall (or somebody elses head) and milder medications that _influence_ rather than straitjacket. Antidepressants are a common example of doctors just throwing pills at a problem they don’t understand. But the worst and most common examples of this approach to medicine have to be antibiotics. I at least have found some good doctors that don’t just prescribe for whatever reason. I have had exposure to doctors who will just write out a script when I asked for it and were not really bothered by what was ailing me. My son had toncilitis and was given antibiotic after antibiotic and I, trusting the alledged learned ones, administered them faithfully until some kind soul introduced me to homeopathic remedies. I respect your POV and your anecdote, but here you are trading something that has at least been scientifically examined, for something that granny made out of bark and roots.
Aaahhh, but many a dentist and doctor has stated that the continual use of penicillin (sp) can cause a problem with the teeth of children. Also, with continual use of an antibiotic it can render itself helpless because the child’s immune system builds up a resistance against the goodness in the antibiotic. Also, my son was on the penicillin (sp) for approx 4 months – the doctors did not want to remove the tonsils. And, he had one course of the homeopathic stuff and never again got toncilitis.:) Now, this might have been purely co-incidental or maybe eventually the antibiotics worked but, I prefer in my comfort zone, to believe that it was the homeopathic stuff that did the trick – also, we moved from one city to another and maybe the climate also had something to do with it. I am just extremely nervous of antibiotics and will only use them as a last resort.:) I do love your words regarding granny and the barks and roots:) There’s no question homeopathy helps many conditions, but that is generally because the ingredients in the ”natural” substances are like entry-level versions of the chemical compounds the scientists work up. Foxglove plant ”containing” digitalis, for example. You can use to help heart and blood pressure problems (or to kill somebody) not b/c it is a plant, but b/c it contains useful chemical substances.
I have no comment on this part ’cause my knowledge of homeopathic remedies is extremely small – the only one I know about is Toncilite:) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My son was on antibiotics for a good three to four months and this ‘toncilite’ (sp) sorted his problem out with one course. His teeth were of course ruined by the antibiotics. However, I consider the realization of the chemical basis for depression and other ‘psychiatric disorders’ to be a major advancement. Used properly they are a god send. But they are not cure-alls. And they do need to be matched to the patient. Used incorrectly they just mask feelings or worse. Used properly they bring feelings into balance. This is true. It is no good being ‘doped up’ in order to cope with life. I can’t entirely agree with a sweeping statement like that. SOME doped up people–schizophrenics, for example–wouldn’t be able to LIVE a life, without meds.
I suppose I based this post on my personal experiences and probably should have stated that at the beginning or somewhere in it. For me, when I used sedatives and sleeping pills, I lost a whole lot of time, I could not cope with my life ’cause I was so doped up, I could not think clearly, rationally, or otherwise. Then when I had enough, I tried to overdose on them. But I obviously did not succeed ’cause I’m still here <grin Anyway, I for one do not condemn anyone who uses meds to help them cope with their life and their abuse. I personally refuse to take anything but that is me and I don’t believe I must push my will onto someone else. I hate it when someone tries to do that with me:) One needs to have a clear rational way of thinking in order to deal with problems. I agree even less with that 8).
Why Averti? Surely one can deal with their problems when they are thinking clearly and rationally rather than being emotional and unreasonable or completely docile ’cause of the medication they are taking? Now, don’t flame me on this, this is an honest question. The sedation I took was 50mg per tab and the sleeping pills were 35mg and that was strong for me and I know what it did to me. I don’t know about the other meds so maybe you will enlighten me? Pleezzzee If they are used correctly, antidepressents are a good thing ’cause they can bring feelings into balance as you stated above. Much depression is primarily of physical origin. What I know about in too much depth is related to MS, CFS and similar conditions. It would also appear that depression with ‘psychological’ origins can be maintained and/or reenforced by a chemical imbalance. Could you perhaps tell me what MS and CFS is?
I still need to know what these are if you could tell me as well:) The other topic I would like to be more able to follow is on forgiveness. But this has gotten so wrapped up in anger at the comments of someone named housekeeping that I can’t follow the important stuff. Forgiveness has been over-rated of late, so it’s no wonder that the very mention of the concept bothers some people.
My husband wanted to purchase some books for me. He decided against it – used his better judgment he said. They were on forgiveness. I told him it was a good thing he did’nt purchase them. Can’t comment here I’m afraid ’cause I’m just as angry at his intrusion. I just ignore his comments and read the comments of those who I feel have something of significance to say. <averti wags finger Now, now. Don’t spend all your time looking at your friends; keep at least one eye on your enemy 8).
<giggles Oh I am my friend, don’t you worry. But only a little eye – he is as much of a threat to me as I will allow him to be and I certainly don’t give him my time. I enjoy your posts Averti. You are straight down the line – no shit – just straight talk. I have to stop myself from being intimidated by you. Now don’t go taking advantage see?? Tempest — I’m not a _complete_ fool; I had my tonsils and appendix removed.
hehehe – tonsils yes appendix – still got mine:) — Tempestuous storm in a tea cup? * no way hos`e – hehe *
Response:
There are a few topics being discussed here that I wish I could follow but which are so wrapped up in people anger and flaming that the solid discussion is hard to keep track of. One is the topic of psych meds. Someone, NNWFB I think, made a very harsh condemnation of all psych meds and touched off quite a flame war. But he (she? I think this person is male but am not sure why. Please forgive me if I’m wrong.) raises some good points. I strongly disagree with his absolutist stand but have to agree in part with some of his reasoning. One term he does not use makes me wonder how old he is. If he were my age or older I would expect these arguements to include the term ‘chemical straight jackets.’ It has been a long time since I’ve heard this term. And longer since I’ve heard it used favorably. But that is what these arguement brought to mind. Meds given, not to benefit the patient so much as for the convienence of the doctors and hospital staff. The term has gone out of style but the thought processes that lead to it are still common. Antidepressants are a common example of doctors just throwing pills at a problem they don’t understand. But the worst and most common examples of this approach to medicine have to be antibiotics. However, I consider the realization of the chemical basis for depression and other ‘psychiatric disorders’ to be a major advancement. Used properly they are a god send. But they are not cure-alls. And they do need to be matched to the patient. Used incorrectly they just mask feelings or worse. Used properly they bring feelings into balance. Much depression is primarily of physical origin. What I know about in too much depth is related to MS, CFS and similar conditions. It would also appear that depression with ‘psychological’ origins can be maintained and/or reenforced by a chemical imbalance. So I would have to argue that this rant was aimed at the wrong target. The problem is not with psych meds, but with doctors that use them as a quick and easy cure-all. The horror stories he alludes to are real. He just mistakes the tool for the culprit. The other topic I would like to be more able to follow is on forgiveness. But this has gotten so wrapped up in anger at the comments of someone named housekeeping that I can’t follow the important stuff.
Response:
James, Don’t apologise. Well you can if you want but I don’t see the need. And I read your contributions every one of them it saved me reading housekeeps which (sorry HK1) I have filtered out. So I thank you. Thats it. Sera – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There are a few topics being discussed here that I wish I could follow but which are so wrapped up in people anger and flaming that the solid discussion is hard to keep track of. <snip The other topic I would like to be more able to follow is on forgiveness. But this has gotten so wrapped up in anger at the comments of someone named housekeeping that I can’t follow the important stuff. Apologies for my contribution.
Response:
Hi:) There are a few topics being discussed here that I wish I could follow but which are so wrapped up in people anger and flaming that the solid discussion is hard to keep track of.
I find this sometimes too. So much said from all different points of view. It is extremely difficult to keep track. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One is the topic of psych meds. Someone, NNWFB I think, made a very harsh condemnation of all psych meds and touched off quite a flame war. But he (she? I think this person is male but am not sure why. Please forgive me if I’m wrong.) raises some good points. I strongly disagree with his absolutist stand but have to agree in part with some of his reasoning. One term he does not use makes me wonder how old he is. If he were my age or older I would expect these arguements to include the term ‘chemical straight jackets.’ It has been a long time since I’ve heard this term. And longer since I’ve heard it used favorably. But that is what these arguement brought to mind. Meds given, not to benefit the patient so much as for the convienence of the doctors and hospital staff. The term has gone out of style but the thought processes that lead to it are still common. Antidepressants are a common example of doctors just throwing pills at a problem they don’t understand. But the worst and most common examples of this approach to medicine have to be antibiotics.
I at least have found some good doctors that don’t just prescribe for whatever reason. I have had exposure to doctors who will just write out a script when I asked for it and were not really bothered by what was ailing me. My son had toncilitis and was given antibiotic after antibiotic and I, trusting the alledged learned ones, administered them faithfully until some kind soul introduced me to homeopathic remedies. My son was on antibiotics for a good three to four months and this ‘toncilite’ (sp) sorted his problem out with one course. His teeth were of course ruined by the antibiotics. However, I consider the realization of the chemical basis for depression and other ‘psychiatric disorders’ to be a major advancement. Used properly they are a god send. But they are not cure-alls. And they do need to be matched to the patient. Used incorrectly they just mask feelings or worse. Used properly they bring feelings into balance.
This is true. It is no good being ‘doped up’ in order to cope with life. One needs to have a clear rational way of thinking in order to deal with problems. If they are used correctly, antidepressents are a good thing ’cause they can bring feelings into balance as you stated above. Much depression is primarily of physical origin. What I know about in too much depth is related to MS, CFS and similar conditions. It would also appear that depression with ‘psychological’ origins can be maintained and/or reenforced by a chemical imbalance.
Could you perhaps tell me what MS and CFS is? The other topic I would like to be more able to follow is on forgiveness. But this has gotten so wrapped up in anger at the comments of someone named housekeeping that I can’t follow the important stuff.
Can’t comment here I’m afraid ’cause I’m just as angry at his intrusion. I just ignore his comments and read the comments of those who I feel have something of significance to say. Tempest — Tempestuous storm in a tea cup? * no way hos`e – hehe *
Response:
There are a few topics being discussed here that I wish I could follow but which are so wrapped up in people anger and flaming that the solid discussion is hard to keep track of.
Jump in! The water’s great! One is the topic of psych meds. Someone, NNWFB I think, made a very harsh condemnation of all psych meds and touched off quite a flame war. But he (she? I think this person is male but am not sure why. Please forgive me if I’m wrong.) raises some good points. I strongly disagree with his absolutist stand but have to agree in part with some of his reasoning.
to meet you, and my absolutism is very amenable to rebuke or revision. ‘chemical straight jackets.’
strait jackets However, I consider the realization of the chemical basis for depression and other ‘psychiatric disorders’ to be a major advancement. Used properly they are a god send. But they are not cure-alls. And they do need to be matched to the patient. Used incorrectly they just mask feelings or worse. Used properly they bring feelings into balance.
This is good solid thoughtful stuff. I am leery of one thing, however, and that is our fascination with the physical mechanics of depression, we assume that they are the CAUSE of depression. Car comes into the shop overheating. Mechanic looks at boiling radiator, " it’s your radiator." puts water in it, you go down the road, but that was not the true source of the problem. The true source of the problem was the silicone glob that the same mechanic used last week to seal the carburetor flange gasket, that clogged up the vacumn advance unit to the distributor and caused retarded timing which ioverheats the engine. Finding sources is tricky business. I sincerely and non-absolutistly believe that the true sources of depression are being given short shrift by those who profit, or *cannot look within themselves deeply enough* to sense the true sources of depression. A therapist who is playing the adult game correctly and is rewarded nicely, will not know of the deep struggle across from him/her , of someone trying to reconnect with their true self. My sister the shrink is a perfect example. She has been richly rewarded for her Harvard education, but I KNOW she is alienated from the little girl she was, I know she cannot truly sense the struggle in her patients to reconnect with their prior vitality. Her therapeutic method is all about "responsible, productive, adjustment," not aiming at the puddles for a bigger splash.The true source of depression, IMHO, is the alienation from our true selves that occurs as we try to meet our parents and the world’s needs as young sensitive children. We sacrifice our inner reality. I wonder if there is a correlation between " maturity" and depression? Much depression is primarily of physical origin. What I know about in too much depth is related to MS, CFS and similar conditions. It would also appear that depression with ‘psychological’ origins can be maintained and/or reenforced by a chemical imbalance. So I would have to argue that this rant was aimed at the wrong target. The problem is not with psych meds, but with doctors that use them as a quick and easy cure-all. The horror stories he alludes to are real. He just mistakes the tool for the culprit.
I will reiterate as gratingly as chalk shrieking across the blackboard, that psychotropic medications are but a bridge. The other topic I would like to be more able to follow is on forgiveness. But this has gotten so wrapped up in anger at the comments of someone named housekeeping that I can’t follow the important stuff.
Sure you can… Here’s how: Tell your eyeballs to skip over the little testy exchanges. Follow Carey, she is good at it. NMWFB
Response:
There are a few topics being discussed here that I wish I could follow but which are so wrapped up in people anger and flaming that the solid discussion is hard to keep track of. <snip The other topic I would like to be more able to follow is on forgiveness. But this has gotten so wrapped up in anger at the comments of someone named housekeeping that I can’t follow the important stuff.
Apologies for my contribution.
Response:
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