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sd's behavior-normal or not?

Question:

This is exactly what terrifies me.  Since my SD has no chores or discipline and no rules (except bedtime) at our house.  How will she act in 5 years when she’s 16? It’s terribly unfair to HER that she doesn’t have a "father figure"… >I got to a point >where I just try to think in my head "It’s his kid and his mistakes to >make", this is really hard especially when you think about how we have to >live with the repercussions of SD and DH’s choices. But on some level you >need to remove yourself. Your health/sanity is at risk! >Vic

"This time: gonna do it RIGHT!" — Bob Seger Jennaii

Response:

I agree…being the main disciplinarian has always kept me close to my SD.  I’ve never felt strange about making rules regarding her behavior, and she knows DH and I are in charge. A long time ago, DH and I discussed what would happen when SD got old enough to have a say in custody matters.  We determined never to change our house rules in favor of SD, simply to keep her happy and keep her from saying she wants to go live at BM’s. So far, we’ve kept the rules and our SD. Jennifer – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Victoria wrote: > x-no-archive: yes > Jennaii, > Oh, that feeling is soooo frustrating. When Sd came to live with us, I > had asked DH a multitude of times to set some ground rules because I > refused to live under those circumstances. He couldn’t bring himself to > do it, so I just started making rules (reasonable ones) and explaining > the consequences to her right in front of DH. And then when she broke > them I would put her in time-out or take away her privileges etc. I’m > sure it was hard for DH because he was worried that she would want to be > with her mommy and she even told me that once when I made her take a > bath. I was mad at DH that I was the one responsible for her discipline > because she was more likely to hate/dislike me in the first place much > less be disciplinarian. But after a few months, she wouldn’t leave my > side and for two years now she and I have gotten along just fine. In fact > I would even go as far as to say we have a great relationship. I am very > lucky to have this respect/understanding with SD, lots of parents > constantly battle with this. I should also say DH has come around and now > he sees she really thrives in an environment where she knows what our > expectations are. > Vic > In article <19990923192829.08203.00000…@ng-fn1.aol.com>, > jenn…@aol.com says… > > This is exactly what terrifies me.  Since my SD has no chores or discipline and > > no rules (except bedtime) at our house.  How will she act in 5 years when she’s > > 16? > > It’s terribly unfair to HER that she doesn’t have a "father figure"… > > >I got to a point > > >where I just try to think in my head "It’s his kid and his mistakes to > > >make", this is really hard especially when you think about how we have to > > >live with the repercussions of SD and DH’s choices. But on some level you > > >need to remove yourself. Your health/sanity is at risk! > > >Vic > > "This time: gonna do it RIGHT!" — Bob Seger > > Jennaii

Response:

On Thu, 23 Sep 1999 10:00:20 -0700, jane lawrence <jane…@excite.com> wrote: A very good post with lots of sound advice, as always.. I’m really disappointed that you did not reply to my "Our Weekend and Pokemon" post tho.. I was looking forward to your good advice! I’d just like to make one point here.. kind of related to my own situation.. SK is 6 and we have him two nights a fortnight.. I used to get really annoyed with SO because he always said stuff like "SK is so smart" "SK is ahead of all the kids in school" "SK knows whats going on" "SK can work things out better than…" "SK is so smart he’s a great liar" – stuff like that. Why it annoyed me I could not put my finger on really.. When we went to counselling I worked it out.. its that SO acts like his kid is the smartest kid in the world, and that is used as an excuse for any behaviour which is not great. Like if he touches something he has been asked not to "Well see he’s so curious about everything" – when he lied and made up stories "See he’s so smart he can work all that out in his head.." when he gives up on things after five minutes "Nothing holds his attention for so long because he is a genius" SO was explaining to me the other day why Nanna cannot stand to see anyone tell SK off – the rose coloured glasses syndrome, he calls it.. His theory is – when you’re a parent you try to bring your kids up to the best of your ability, when you’re a grandparent, you forget all the rules you had for your kids and spend most of your time trying to *stop* your *own* kids from using the rules they learnt from grandparent! It does make sense.. I’ve seen it with my own parents. I think all parents see their kids through rose coloured glasses in some way – heck, I think my nephew is the best kid that ever lived.. and this could be why you are having so much trouble, Marie. You don’t feel any connection with this kid, and every time you bring up the bad behaviour, SO is trying to say your kids aren’t perfect either.. which is more than likely true, but *because* of the way he is defending SD, he is *attacking* your kids – which puts you on different sides of the fence ((( This has happened with SO and I – except it isn’t my own kid, its my nephew.. I was sooo happy to have him visit a couple of months ago that I could not have cared *how* he behaved – yet I am often critical of SK’s behaviour. I had nephew for 24 hours, really he is a great kid, but the way I get him to do what I want him to do is totally different to how I act with SK. I’ve made excuses for nephew’s behaviour MYSELF on occasion.. see how it creeps into your soul and you just don’t realise you are doing it? So when you *love* and *care* about a child – like you plainly do your own, the things they do don’t bother you as much! But when you have someone in your household who, for whatever reason, you cannot stand, you *notice* the things they do a lot more and get angry and upset over them. What you need to do is sit down and figure out why you have such feelings towards SD. It seems to me like you have a real problem with her presence in your household, and until you get over that, you’re not going to go far.. Is it that you cannot be involved in disciplining her? Is it that every time you want to see her, you just want to smack the cr*p out of her? I’ve had that feeling with SK on occasion but it goes away pretty quick – its usually when he misbehaves in front of Nanna. Is it that you are on constant guard to see what she does next? Is it that you hate BM and SD is a constant reminder? I’d suggest that you and SO need to sit down and have the "what if" conversation.. you have no idea how much this can help.. you just sit down, and talk about all the things that could happen between now and age 18 – this way, you can agree on some disciplines that are not *right* now needed, but may be in the future, and maybe the two of you can agree on how you want to dsicipline *any* of the kids in the house, regardless of parentage. Ask questions like "What if a kid throws a toy through the window?" "What if she/he hits another child?" and go right up to "What if we walk in on him/her shagging on the couch?" I asked SO – What if SK comes home and says "I’m gay, Dad.." SO told me he would say "Well, thats ok with me son, you know I accept you for who you are. But – You’re telling your mother." – he reckons BM would totally lose it! If SD’s behaviour is really upsetting you, then I suggest you and SO call a family meeting, and try to set some new ground rules for *everyone* in the house that deal with the behaviours she is exhibiting. I’d also suggest that if you’re going to stick around in this situation, you need to learn to accept SD for who she is, and try to get closer to her. It’s hard, I know.. but if you don’t – the rest of the household is going to end up taking sides, and you can guess what that will do to your family. I hope that might help a bit.. I had some problems dealing with SK and have only sorted them out through counselling – thanks to Jane.. Mel

Response:

    I think being united is a really good step in the right direction. Congratulations. Merrie Victoria <victoriac…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:MPG.1253dc95988961c79896c6@news.coserv.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> x-no-archive: yes > Marie, > Been there!!! I can’t count the times I have wanted to scream from my > frustration with SD which DH couldn’t see. But since I have relinquished > a lot of SD-related duties to DH he is starting to see her manipulation. > But discipline, that is another story all together, he won’t do it at > all, it’s my job. Not because he wants me to be but because I can’t sit > back and watch her get away with crap and not get any discipline for it. > Now I am not talking about spanking, I am talking about time-outs and > lost privileges. DH and I have a new agreement, if one of us tells SD > something the other has to back them up, if they have a problem with what > was done/said it can be discussed in private. This may seem old hat to > some of you but I just got through to DH on this subject, he finally gets > it. > Anyway, I think you know this already but for sake of your sanity you > need to find a way to deal with SD better. (mentally) I got to a point > where I just try to think in my head "It’s his kid and his mistakes to > make", this is really hard especially when you think about how we have to > live with the repercussions of SD and DH’s choices. But on some level you > need to remove yourself. Your health/sanity is at risk! > Vic

Response:

marie…@my-deja.com wrote:

I have to preface this.  I understand what a wretched situation you are in.  I do not mean to attack you or tell you that you are wrong for feeling the way you do.  I’m posting this because I get the feeling that you can’t see your way out of a horrible situation.  Sometimes, conditions can be so overwhelming that you can’t think straight to figure out a solution. > hi all, having some posting problems evidently. yesterdays gripe didn’t make > it on the thread. in a nutshell, i feel back right back where i started with > the resentments etc. the three weekends that sd went with bm were blissfully > wonderful for me. SO and i reconnected, the tension in the house was minimal, > and everyone got along so much better. bummer. i feel like i can handle > anything with sd as long as she leaves on the weekends. selfish, i know. btw, > when SO and i met , she was gone with half-sibs on the weekends, which is > also no longer. we had counseling last night. the counselor mentioned all > about the subtle, devious, manipulative behavior common in kids with sds > backround. SO doesn’t see it with her-NEVER WILL!!!!

I don’t mean to sound harsh, but what the hell do you expect him to say?  You’re telling him that his kid is the Bad Seed.  Your counselor was explaining her behavior within the context of environmental factors.  If you’re in family counseling, I would expect her to discuss options that you and he have for dealing with her behavior.   You OTOH seem to think the kid is evil. If that’s the way it sounds to me, I bet that’s the way it sounds to SO. It’s clear to everyone (including you, by your own admission) that you are not objective where this kid is concerned. For you, everything she does is wrong. Granted, locking stall doors is wrong, but it’s the kind of thing kids do.  So DH can’t possibly rely on your opinion or fully trust your input.  If you want the counselor to get through to him, you’d be far better off staying home or meeting with her separately for a while.  As long as you are there, he’s just going to focus on defending SD.   > i agreed with her > emphatically and he got mad with me. i just said that her behavior was very > ‘unchildlike’ in the typical sense.

I’m confused.  You’ve mentioned this a few times.  What do you mean by "unchildlike?" To me, that implies some quality you associate with maturity and adulthood.  Is that what you mean? Is deviousness an "adult" quality for you?  I’m not sure what you’re getting at. > all he does is attack my bds behavior > which is like comparing apples and oranges. yes, she can be manipulative etc > but it still falls within the normal parameters of childhood development. sds > does not. of course, he’s not too objective when it comes to her.

But, Marie, all *you* do is attack *his* BD’s behavior!  You’re not objective when it comes to SD any more than SO is.  And your 4 yo is *not* perfect.  You are so certain that SD’s behavior does not fall within the parameters of normal childhood development.  If that’s true, maybe it’s because she isn’t having a normal childhood.  SO cannot make his child "normal" or "innocent" at this point.  The best you can even hope for is that he will figure out how to work with her and help her to grow into a happy, productive adult.  He has to accept her and love her and protect her just as she is.  And you have to either help him or get the hell out of his way. > personally, > she’s driving me up the gd wall!!!! i’m getting depressed, irritable beyond > belief, withdrawn and the lists goes on. i can’t seem to accept the fact that > she will always be around 24-7. my mom is moving down in jan, i asked SO what > he would do if mom offered to take sd on occasion and she refused, like she > always does. she misses her daddy too much to go anywhere. barf. he said he > wouldn’t make her go, fine, i said that i will get my break one way or > another.

Right!  You need a break.  You deserve a break.  You should figure out how to get one.   > i’ll go stay with my mom one day a week. can’t wait til she gets > here.

That’s right, too.  You *can’t* wait until she gets here.  What else can you do to get away?  Any chance of taking an evening class in something, going to a movie one night a week, staying with a friend?  How can you get away from the tension for a while?  You need someone to brainstorm this with.  Would it help if we all discussed what we do for relief and what has and has not worked for us?   >of course, i’d rather be in the comforts of my own home. my eye has > started twitching again, which means the stress level is out of control. i > dont’ want to leave him, i just want a solution to this.  i know that i have > to change the way i view the situation but it’s a constant struggle daily. i > have such a sick gut feeling about this kid, it haunts me. i talked this over > with one of my friends who is ever so level headed and objective. she > admitted to me that she has the same feeling about sd. something more is > wrong-above and beyond the abandonment stuff. my mom said the same thing, the > first time she met her. spooky or paranoid, i don’t know. i dont’ like > feeling this way and i’m beginning to worry about what kind of effect this > will have on my 4 yr old bd. sd is almost 7. there IS mental illness in sds > family-bms side.

This is a hot button for me.  This "bad vibes/gut feeling" stuff is not going to help.  The counselor, the school, and your SO seem to feel that she has some problems.  Your posts discuss extremely annoying and quite common behavior.  I wonder if you are dehumanizing the kid so that you can loathe her without guilt.  She’s a little girl.  She may be an insecure, manipulative, worldly-wise, devious, depressed little girl, but she’s still a little girl.  She’s not the spawn of Satan.  If you hate her guts, hate her guts.  You don’t have to love her, or like her, or even understand her.  But for heaven’s sake, admit it.  Don’t try to convince yourself that you don’t love her because no one could love her.  SO loves that little girl. He may be able to accept that she’s a wonderful girl who has some problems, but he can’t possibly ever believe that she isn’t lovable. BTW, there’s mental illness in *everyone’s* family.  You handle it like you handle any other "difference" in your kids.  If SD is mentally ill, what do you think you should do about it?  Do you need to live somewhere else with your 4 yo?  Could you can suggest to SO that SD should be seeing a psychiatrist rather than a counselor?  Would SO see her needs and help her with them more easily or quickly if you did leave him?   jane – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> of course, everyone (school,etc) thinks she is so well > behaved, polite etc. last night she locked the restroom stall doors from the > inside and crawled out from underneath-at the counselors office. of course, > she denied it but i KNOW she did it. i was the next one to go in a few > minutes later and had to crawl under myself because she was in with the > counselor. i made her go unlock them , of course. maybe if it were another > kid, i would laugh about it someday but not sd. nothing she does amuses me in > any way. thank you all for reading this, marie

Response:

In article <7sagmm$42…@nnrp1.deja.com>, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -  marie…@my-deja.com wrote: > In article <37E7D0C8.3E672…@worldnet.att.net>, >   Anne Robotti <robo…@worldnet.att.net> wrote: > > April, me either! But a couple of things do stand out. > > I had heard somewhere, a long time ago, that if children hurt > > pets or smaller children that that’s a really bad sign. So I’m > > not addressing that behavior when I say that I think what we’re > > both dealing with is some really rotten behavior by kids who > > can get away with it and do. > > SD, this weekend, had to be asked three times to vaccuum the > > rug in the living room. First she did it just where the crackers > > were. Then she did just where the paper was. Finally I *yelled* > > at her, and she said in this really sulky voice, "Well I didn’t > > know you meant the whole thing!" Same thing the next day with > > picking up the toys. It’s SOOOOOOO annoying to have to stand over > > a ten year old to make sure she does something right. I think > > that vaccuuming a rug is something a five year old should be able > > to do. > > And the lying, don’t get me started. SD lies so constantly that I > > greet every statement now with, "Okay, whatever." I don’t even > > bother to get mad anymore at the latest thing that "Mommy said" > > or "Daddy said" or "I’m allowed to…"  Part of it, I admit, is > > my new "Not my problem" attitude, but part of it is the *certain* > > knowledge that I’m going to get all hyped up about this and it’s > > going to turn out to be another stupid lie. I’ve been told that > > this is a normal behavior for a seven to eight year old, and cer- > > tainly the peak of the lying was at that point. That, I believe, was > > the year that SD told her teacher that she was molested at our > > house, told her mother’s best friend that when I go away on business > > trips Daddy makes her sleep with him, told her friends that she didn’t > > want to come here because her Dad beats her… ah, the good years. The > > fun just never stopped back then… That was also the big year of > > the "Mommy said," "Anne said" lies, when I finally got on the phone > > with BM and told her (after she bitched me out for another SD lie) that > > she could believe SD all she wanted, but SD was making a fool of her > > and if she didn’t put a stop to it, the next lies would be, "No Mom, > > I’m not smoking pot and sleeping with my boyfriend." > > The stomping, muttering, mouthing off to adults… we’ve always had > > that. SD has been so nasty to my mother on occassion that I don’t let > > her go over there anymore. And it’s not just my Mom, she’s alienated > > almost every member of DH’s family too. > > Now, as to whether this is normal kids stuff, I know kids who don’t > > behave like that. I’ve got it pretty well under control in my house, > > I think. But I guess there are also kids that do. I find that when > > SD’s with us for a week, it’s four days of riding her really hard > > about everything, followed by three days when she tows the line. It’s > > a never-ending battle. > > Anne > > apriltar…@my-deja.com wrote: > > > okay…not having a lot of experience with kids up until becoming a > > > CSM, I cant always separate intentional "bad" behavior from "normal" > > > childhood behavior. SD is 7, almost 8. She’s the one who still talks > > > like a baby and sucks her thumb, yet she prances around the house like > > > Queen of Sheba and is always wanting to be given more "grown-up" > > > priveleges, but her demands for attention(whining, deliberately teasing > > > or hurting her brother or our pets, acting helpless, etc) are nerve- > > > wracking. She has such a mouth lately, talks back to her friends, me > > > and her father, other adults(though as far as her teachers are > > > concerned, she is the most polite, sweetest, kindest little girl they > > > have ever known…talk about split personality). If asked to do > > > something, she first asks why, then pouts the entire time she is doing > > > the task, stomping and muttering under her breath. Then she will do the > > > job half-ass, and usually needs to be told 3 or 4 times to finish it > > > thouroughly. Then she stomps around and wont talk to anyone afterwards, > > > sometimes crying because we are apparently so mean to force her to do > > > such evil things (cleaning her room, picking up after herself, putting > > > away dishes, etc). Then, her lying is getting out of control again. We > > > have caught her time and time again in a lie, yet she will continue to > > > tell even more lies to get out of it, or completely deny that she > > > did/said something, even if we catch her in the act. Then of course, > > > she gets angry when we punish her. She’s also getting even more clingy > > > and huggy-kissy with me and her dad…but also the neighbors, friends, > > > store clerks,etc….it’s so embarrassing. I mean, I want her to be a > > > friendly, outgoing person, but this turns so many people, myself > > > included, away from her(and it scares me that she is this way with just > > > anybody…this could end her up in a LOT of trouble). I have been > > > really proud of myself lately for the way I have been dealing with > > > her….I havent been losing control, and I never let her know she is > > > pissing me off. When at all possible, I make sure DH witnesses this > > > behavior and I let HIM deal with it. But usually I just explain why her > > > behavior is wrong or inappropriate, give her some options that would > > > work better in whatever situation we are dealing with…and either give > > > her a warning or dole out an appropriate punishment(standing in the > > > corner or going without TV are the most effective at this point). Am I > > > doing the right thing? Anyone know of anything else that may work > > > better? > > > Today I am sending a note to school for the counselor, as she hasnt yet > > > started seeing them and I think both kids need to start going. I think > > > a lot of the problem is, of course, BM. SD has been telling these > > > outrageous stories to her friends, about how great it is at her mom’s > > > house, that her mom really wants her to go live with her cuz she loves > > > her so much, and that she will be coming for her soon. That BM takes > > > her to concerts and fancy restaurants, sends her letters and gifts all > > > the time, and calls her at least a couple times a week. I realize this > > > is just something she needs to do to rationalize her mother’s real > > > behavior, which is that she hasnt contacted the kids in any way since > > > the first week of August, leaves them with grandparents or sitters when > > > they are with her, and is too drunk most of the time to do anything but > > > scream at them. I feel sorry for her, I really do…and wish there was > > > something more I could do. I try to make the kids feel as safe, loved, > > > and comfortable as possible, but I can only imagine what it is like to > > > be abandoned by your own mother. So what I am wondering here, is if I > > > am doing the right thing….if there is anything I am doing wrong or > > > not doing at all…and if her behavior is typical of this age, or if > > > she is having some very serious emotional/mental problems. What do you > > > think? > > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > > > Share what you know. Learn what you don’t. > gees, anne, you have your hands full. ya know, i was raised by alchoholics > and never acted like this, i was abandoned by my dad and never acted like > this. i was a rebellious teen, drank, drugs the whole thing. i was never > disrespectful to anyone outside of the normal mouthiness of a teenager to her > parents. at age 6-8 , i was never like what i’m hearing described here and > what i’m living with now. now i’m not saying that i’m the model to which all > kids will follow but i do pay attention to SDs peers. she is different in the > way she acts. there’s something there that is so much less innocent. very > hard to put into words.SO asked her the other day why she is so mouthy, her > reply "daddy, it’s because i want your attention" he was very sympathetic to > this. my reply "well that’s a load of crap if i ever heard it". she is quite > verbal when she wants attention, she simply asks for it, constantly. he > obliges. naturally he feels guilty because of the situation with her mom. i, > on the other hand, don’t trust anything about her. call me paranoid. > sometimes i feel her grief episodes are genuine and sometimes they are > convenient maneuvers to get her way. i also think little girls can easily > manipulate their fathers. i’m right back where i started with my feelings > about SD. we had 3 weekends where she was with her mom, it was WONDERFUL for > us. i was blissfully happy and the stress in this house was minimal. i am > struggling so hard with my attitude. i can deal with almost any kid and any > behavior if there’s a break. even when i lock myself in my room , she’s still > here, it doesn’t work. my mom is moving down in jan. i asked SO what he would > do if mom offered to take SD for a night and she refused(like she always > does). he says he wouldn’t make her go. so, i’ll go instead. he didn’t like > that response but i’ll get that break one way or another. of course, i’d > rather have it in my own home. i’m getting really depressed over this > situation because i don’t know what to do to help myself and my attitude. i > know i overreact sometimes because he underreacts but he’ll never see what i > see going on here. instead,he’ll just point out bad behavior in my 4 yr. old. > as mean as it sounds, i have such little compassion for SDs situation when > typically i’d be heartbroken for a child in this situation. but she’s almost > an unlikable child in my eyes-my friends see the same ‘weirdness’ and lack of > innocence about her. they would tell me if i was off the beam too. there’s > been alot of

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Response:

On Tue, 21 Sep 1999 14:39:04 -0400, Anne Robotti – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<robo…@worldnet.att.net> wrote: >And the lying, don’t get me started. SD lies so constantly that I >greet every statement now with, "Okay, whatever." I don’t even >bother to get mad anymore at the latest thing that "Mommy said" >or "Daddy said" or "I’m allowed to…"  Part of it, I admit, is >my new "Not my problem" attitude, but part of it is the *certain* >knowledge that I’m going to get all hyped up about this and it’s >going to turn out to be another stupid lie. I’ve been told that >this is a normal behavior for a seven to eight year old, and cer- >tainly the peak of the lying was at that point. That, I believe, was >the year that SD told her teacher that she was molested at our >house, told her mother’s best friend that when I go away on business >trips Daddy makes her sleep with him, told her friends that she didn’t >want to come here because her Dad beats her… ah, the good years. The >fun just never stopped back then… That was also the big year of >the "Mommy said," "Anne said" lies, when I finally got on the phone >with BM and told her (after she bitched me out for another SD lie) that >she could believe SD all she wanted, but SD was making a fool of her >and if she didn’t put a stop to it, the next lies would be, "No Mom, >I’m not smoking pot and sleeping with my boyfriend."

SK often tries to get out of things by lying.. and SO and I have found a great way to get around it most of the time.. We’ll be in the car on the way home from drop off, and SO will say "You need to have a bath tonight" and SK will say "No I dont.. I had one just before tea" or "Mum said I could <insert dangerous activity or Pokemon related activity here>…. " Now what we do, is one of us grabs the mobile phone and says "Well, I’ll just ring her and check, shall I?" and immediately he backs down and admits it was a lie. I mean, the last four or so pickups, he’s still been in his school uniform.. its not like we are blind SK!! I think as he gets older, and he starts sleeping over at people’s places and stuff, knowing the kinds of lies *I* used to get away with, we will always check with the parents of the other child before allowing him to do anything.. That’s a fair enough rule, I think. Provide us with the parents phone number, we call them and check the plans, and then you can go. If not, stay at home.. Mel – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Anne

Response:

hey, Anne…..yes, I have read about children hurting other kids and small pets….it scares the living daylights out of me, too. That is why we are getting the kids back in therapy again. (My brother did lots of horrible, abusive things to animals after my parents divorced…they never got him any help and he should have had it…he is semi-okay now but you never know what could happen..)SD acts all lovey-dovey with our pets…mostly when friends or family are around….but I have caught her squeezing the hamsters and gerbils, after countless hours of showing her how to hold them….she carries the guinea pig around like a sack of potatoes…this I can most likely account for her age, being clumsy yet and all that….but she does stuff like bite the dog(not hard enough to take out a chunk, but hard enough to make him yelp..when I ask why, she shrugs and says…I dont know…or he was bugging me), and is ALWAYS screaming at him or hitting, or kicking him….then she wonders why he doesnt want to play with her when SHE wants to play(he’s only 10 months old)….she was in a major biting phase awhile back…took a chunk the size of a half dollar out of ss’s shoulder…now she is into the face-slapping. As far as I can tell, though..she only hits the dogs and other kids, usually those smaller than her…I know when she is with her mom and younger half-sister, there is a lot of physical abuse in the home, so I suppose a lot of what she does is what she sees.(though she never admits to anything bad going on in the home…she has her mom up on a pedestal like a queen and acts like BM is this loving, caring, sweet person who can do no wrong…and before anyone attacks me for that, yes, I do realize this is normal, esp. for a child this age…but it’s hard when you know what she is really going thorugh…esp. when my ss is able to verbalize all his fears and what he deals with when they are there…you’d think they are staying in two different homes..which makes it hard for us and ss to have any credibility with the social workers) She is also SO much like your sd when it comes to chores…she will only vacuum what she sees on the floor, or only wipe down HER part of the dinner table…and cleaning her room means shoving everything under the bed…last night I made her and her brother do the dishes…thought for sure they would kill each other before they got done..and if I ask her to do something…it’s like, "I didnt make the mess"..or "why should I? Mom doesnt make me do that". I just tell her, because I said so, and as long as she lives with us, everyone has chores to do. I usually ahve to keep hounding her to get things done….sometimes she surprises me and volunteers or does it w/o bitching but that’s not too often. As for the lying, God, I hope that goes away soon…I’m not even going to get started on all that. I just hope she grows out of all this soon….and hopefully therapy will help her. Thanks for the support in the meantime, though! I appreciate it! (I didnt mean for this to get so long…oh, well!) In article <37E7D0C8.3E672…@worldnet.att.net>,   Anne Robotti <robo…@worldnet.att.net> wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> April, me either! But a couple of things do stand out. > I had heard somewhere, a long time ago, that if children hurt > pets or smaller children that that’s a really bad sign. So I’m > not addressing that behavior when I say that I think what we’re > both dealing with is some really rotten behavior by kids who > can get away with it and do. > SD, this weekend, had to be asked three times to vaccuum the > rug in the living room. First she did it just where the crackers > were. Then she did just where the paper was. Finally I *yelled* > at her, and she said in this really sulky voice, "Well I didn’t > know you meant the whole thing!" Same thing the next day with > picking up the toys. It’s SOOOOOOO annoying to have to stand over > a ten year old to make sure she does something right. I think > that vaccuuming a rug is something a five year old should be able > to do. > And the lying, don’t get me started. SD lies so constantly that I > greet every statement now with, "Okay, whatever." I don’t even > bother to get mad anymore at the latest thing that "Mommy said" > or "Daddy said" or "I’m allowed to…"  Part of it, I admit, is > my new "Not my problem" attitude, but part of it is the *certain* > knowledge that I’m going to get all hyped up about this and it’s > going to turn out to be another stupid lie. I’ve been told that > this is a normal behavior for a seven to eight year old, and cer- > tainly the peak of the lying was at that point. That, I believe, was > the year that SD told her teacher that she was molested at our > house, told her mother’s best friend that when I go away on business > trips Daddy makes her sleep with him, told her friends that she didn’t > want to come here because her Dad beats her… ah, the good years. The > fun just never stopped back then… That was also the big year of > the "Mommy said," "Anne said" lies, when I finally got on the phone > with BM and told her (after she bitched me out for another SD lie) that > she could believe SD all she wanted, but SD was making a fool of her > and if she didn’t put a stop to it, the next lies would be, "No Mom, > I’m not smoking pot and sleeping with my boyfriend." > The stomping, muttering, mouthing off to adults… we’ve always had > that. SD has been so nasty to my mother on occassion that I don’t let > her go over there anymore. And it’s not just my Mom, she’s alienated > almost every member of DH’s family too. > Now, as to whether this is normal kids stuff, I know kids who don’t > behave like that. I’ve got it pretty well under control in my house, > I think. But I guess there are also kids that do. I find that when > SD’s with us for a week, it’s four days of riding her really hard > about everything, followed by three days when she tows the line. It’s > a never-ending battle. > Anne > apriltar…@my-deja.com wrote: > > okay…not having a lot of experience with kids up until becoming a > > CSM, I cant always separate intentional "bad" behavior from "normal" > > childhood behavior. SD is 7, almost 8. She’s the one who still talks > > like a baby and sucks her thumb, yet she prances around the house like > > Queen of Sheba and is always wanting to be given more "grown-up" > > priveleges, but her demands for attention(whining, deliberately teasing > > or hurting her brother or our pets, acting helpless, etc) are nerve- > > wracking. She has such a mouth lately, talks back to her friends, me > > and her father, other adults(though as far as her teachers are > > concerned, she is the most polite, sweetest, kindest little girl they > > have ever known…talk about split personality). If asked to do > > something, she first asks why, then pouts the entire time she is doing > > the task, stomping and muttering under her breath. Then she will do the > > job half-ass, and usually needs to be told 3 or 4 times to finish it > > thouroughly. Then she stomps around and wont talk to anyone afterwards, > > sometimes crying because we are apparently so mean to force her to do > > such evil things (cleaning her room, picking up after herself, putting > > away dishes, etc). Then, her lying is getting out of control again. We > > have caught her time and time again in a lie, yet she will continue to > > tell even more lies to get out of it, or completely deny that she > > did/said something, even if we catch her in the act. Then of course, > > she gets angry when we punish her. She’s also getting even more clingy > > and huggy-kissy with me and her dad…but also the neighbors, friends, > > store clerks,etc….it’s so embarrassing. I mean, I want her to be a > > friendly, outgoing person, but this turns so many people, myself > > included, away from her(and it scares me that she is this way with just > > anybody…this could end her up in a LOT of trouble). I have been > > really proud of myself lately for the way I have been dealing with > > her….I havent been losing control, and I never let her know she is > > pissing me off. When at all possible, I make sure DH witnesses this > > behavior and I let HIM deal with it. But usually I just explain why her > > behavior is wrong or inappropriate, give her some options that would > > work better in whatever situation we are dealing with…and either give > > her a warning or dole out an appropriate punishment(standing in the > > corner or going without TV are the most effective at this point). Am I > > doing the right thing? Anyone know of anything else that may work > > better? > > Today I am sending a note to school for the counselor, as she hasnt yet > > started seeing them and I think both kids need to start going. I think > > a lot of the problem is, of course, BM. SD has been telling these > > outrageous stories to her friends, about how great it is at her mom’s > > house, that her mom really wants her to go live with her cuz she loves > > her so much, and that she will be coming for her soon. That BM takes > > her to concerts and fancy restaurants, sends her letters and gifts all > > the time, and calls her at least a couple times a week. I realize this > > is just something she needs to do to rationalize her mother’s real > > behavior, which is that she hasnt contacted the kids in any way since > > the first week of August, leaves them with grandparents or sitters when > > they are with her, and is too drunk most of the time to do anything but > > scream at them. I feel sorry for her, I really do…and wish there was > > something more I could do. I try to make the kids feel as safe, loved, > > and comfortable as possible, but I can only imagine what it is like to > > be abandoned by your own mother. So what I am wondering here, is if I > > am doing the right thing….if there is anything I am doing wrong or > > not doing at all…and if her behavior is typical of this

… read more »

Response:

In article <37E7D0C8.3E672…@worldnet.att.net>,   Anne Robotti <robo…@worldnet.att.net> wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> April, me either! But a couple of things do stand out. > I had heard somewhere, a long time ago, that if children hurt > pets or smaller children that that’s a really bad sign. So I’m > not addressing that behavior when I say that I think what we’re > both dealing with is some really rotten behavior by kids who > can get away with it and do. > SD, this weekend, had to be asked three times to vaccuum the > rug in the living room. First she did it just where the crackers > were. Then she did just where the paper was. Finally I *yelled* > at her, and she said in this really sulky voice, "Well I didn’t > know you meant the whole thing!" Same thing the next day with > picking up the toys. It’s SOOOOOOO annoying to have to stand over > a ten year old to make sure she does something right. I think > that vaccuuming a rug is something a five year old should be able > to do. > And the lying, don’t get me started. SD lies so constantly that I > greet every statement now with, "Okay, whatever." I don’t even > bother to get mad anymore at the latest thing that "Mommy said" > or "Daddy said" or "I’m allowed to…"  Part of it, I admit, is > my new "Not my problem" attitude, but part of it is the *certain* > knowledge that I’m going to get all hyped up about this and it’s > going to turn out to be another stupid lie. I’ve been told that > this is a normal behavior for a seven to eight year old, and cer- > tainly the peak of the lying was at that point. That, I believe, was > the year that SD told her teacher that she was molested at our > house, told her mother’s best friend that when I go away on business > trips Daddy makes her sleep with him, told her friends that she didn’t > want to come here because her Dad beats her… ah, the good years. The > fun just never stopped back then… That was also the big year of > the "Mommy said," "Anne said" lies, when I finally got on the phone > with BM and told her (after she bitched me out for another SD lie) that > she could believe SD all she wanted, but SD was making a fool of her > and if she didn’t put a stop to it, the next lies would be, "No Mom, > I’m not smoking pot and sleeping with my boyfriend." > The stomping, muttering, mouthing off to adults… we’ve always had > that. SD has been so nasty to my mother on occassion that I don’t let > her go over there anymore. And it’s not just my Mom, she’s alienated > almost every member of DH’s family too. > Now, as to whether this is normal kids stuff, I know kids who don’t > behave like that. I’ve got it pretty well under control in my house, > I think. But I guess there are also kids that do. I find that when > SD’s with us for a week, it’s four days of riding her really hard > about everything, followed by three days when she tows the line. It’s > a never-ending battle. > Anne > apriltar…@my-deja.com wrote: > > okay…not having a lot of experience with kids up until becoming a > > CSM, I cant always separate intentional "bad" behavior from "normal" > > childhood behavior. SD is 7, almost 8. She’s the one who still talks > > like a baby and sucks her thumb, yet she prances around the house like > > Queen of Sheba and is always wanting to be given more "grown-up" > > priveleges, but her demands for attention(whining, deliberately teasing > > or hurting her brother or our pets, acting helpless, etc) are nerve- > > wracking. She has such a mouth lately, talks back to her friends, me > > and her father, other adults(though as far as her teachers are > > concerned, she is the most polite, sweetest, kindest little girl they > > have ever known…talk about split personality). If asked to do > > something, she first asks why, then pouts the entire time she is doing > > the task, stomping and muttering under her breath. Then she will do the > > job half-ass, and usually needs to be told 3 or 4 times to finish it > > thouroughly. Then she stomps around and wont talk to anyone afterwards, > > sometimes crying because we are apparently so mean to force her to do > > such evil things (cleaning her room, picking up after herself, putting > > away dishes, etc). Then, her lying is getting out of control again. We > > have caught her time and time again in a lie, yet she will continue to > > tell even more lies to get out of it, or completely deny that she > > did/said something, even if we catch her in the act. Then of course, > > she gets angry when we punish her. She’s also getting even more clingy > > and huggy-kissy with me and her dad…but also the neighbors, friends, > > store clerks,etc….it’s so embarrassing. I mean, I want her to be a > > friendly, outgoing person, but this turns so many people, myself > > included, away from her(and it scares me that she is this way with just > > anybody…this could end her up in a LOT of trouble). I have been > > really proud of myself lately for the way I have been dealing with > > her….I havent been losing control, and I never let her know she is > > pissing me off. When at all possible, I make sure DH witnesses this > > behavior and I let HIM deal with it. But usually I just explain why her > > behavior is wrong or inappropriate, give her some options that would > > work better in whatever situation we are dealing with…and either give > > her a warning or dole out an appropriate punishment(standing in the > > corner or going without TV are the most effective at this point). Am I > > doing the right thing? Anyone know of anything else that may work > > better? > > Today I am sending a note to school for the counselor, as she hasnt yet > > started seeing them and I think both kids need to start going. I think > > a lot of the problem is, of course, BM. SD has been telling these > > outrageous stories to her friends, about how great it is at her mom’s > > house, that her mom really wants her to go live with her cuz she loves > > her so much, and that she will be coming for her soon. That BM takes > > her to concerts and fancy restaurants, sends her letters and gifts all > > the time, and calls her at least a couple times a week. I realize this > > is just something she needs to do to rationalize her mother’s real > > behavior, which is that she hasnt contacted the kids in any way since > > the first week of August, leaves them with grandparents or sitters when > > they are with her, and is too drunk most of the time to do anything but > > scream at them. I feel sorry for her, I really do…and wish there was > > something more I could do. I try to make the kids feel as safe, loved, > > and comfortable as possible, but I can only imagine what it is like to > > be abandoned by your own mother. So what I am wondering here, is if I > > am doing the right thing….if there is anything I am doing wrong or > > not doing at all…and if her behavior is typical of this age, or if > > she is having some very serious emotional/mental problems. What do you > > think? > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > > Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

gees, anne, you have your hands full. ya know, i was raised by alchoholics and never acted like this, i was abandoned by my dad and never acted like this. i was a rebellious teen, drank, drugs the whole thing. i was never disrespectful to anyone outside of the normal mouthiness of a teenager to her parents. at age 6-8 , i was never like what i’m hearing described here and what i’m living with now. now i’m not saying that i’m the model to which all kids will follow but i do pay attention to SDs peers. she is different in the way she acts. there’s something there that is so much less innocent. very hard to put into words.SO asked her the other day why she is so mouthy, her reply "daddy, it’s because i want your attention" he was very sympathetic to this. my reply "well that’s a load of crap if i ever heard it". she is quite verbal when she wants attention, she simply asks for it, constantly. he obliges. naturally he feels guilty because of the situation with her mom. i, on the other hand, don’t trust anything about her. call me paranoid. sometimes i feel her grief episodes are genuine and sometimes they are convenient maneuvers to get her way. i also think little girls can easily manipulate their fathers. i’m right back where i started with my feelings about SD. we had 3 weekends where she was with her mom, it was WONDERFUL for us. i was blissfully happy and the stress in this house was minimal. i am struggling so hard with my attitude. i can deal with almost any kid and any behavior if there’s a break. even when i lock myself in my room , she’s still here, it doesn’t work. my mom is moving down in jan. i asked SO what he would do if mom offered to take SD for a night and she refused(like she always does). he says he wouldn’t make her go. so, i’ll go instead. he didn’t like that response but i’ll get that break one way or another. of course, i’d rather have it in my own home. i’m getting really depressed over this situation because i don’t know what to do to help myself and my attitude. i know i overreact sometimes because he underreacts but he’ll never see what i see going on here. instead,he’ll just point out bad behavior in my 4 yr. old. as mean as it sounds, i have such little compassion for SDs situation when typically i’d be heartbroken for a child in this situation. but she’s almost an unlikable child in my eyes-my friends see the same ‘weirdness’ and lack of innocence about her. they would tell me if i was off the beam too. there’s been alot of distance between SO and i lately because ican’t separate him from his child. i need help with this, we have counseling tonight but i think i need to go alone next time. thanks, i know this is a long vent, sorry. april, keep my posted on your situation, i’d be interested in any developments or ways to handle children like this. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ … read more »

Response:

okay…not having a lot of experience with kids up until becoming a CSM, I cant always separate intentional "bad" behavior from "normal" childhood behavior. SD is 7, almost 8. She’s the one who still talks like a baby and sucks her thumb, yet she prances around the house like Queen of Sheba and is always wanting to be given more "grown-up" priveleges, but her demands for attention(whining, deliberately teasing or hurting her brother or our pets, acting helpless, etc) are nerve- wracking. She has such a mouth lately, talks back to her friends, me and her father, other adults(though as far as her teachers are concerned, she is the most polite, sweetest, kindest little girl they have ever known…talk about split personality). If asked to do something, she first asks why, then pouts the entire time she is doing the task, stomping and muttering under her breath. Then she will do the job half-ass, and usually needs to be told 3 or 4 times to finish it thouroughly. Then she stomps around and wont talk to anyone afterwards, sometimes crying because we are apparently so mean to force her to do such evil things (cleaning her room, picking up after herself, putting away dishes, etc). Then, her lying is getting out of control again. We have caught her time and time again in a lie, yet she will continue to tell even more lies to get out of it, or completely deny that she did/said something, even if we catch her in the act. Then of course, she gets angry when we punish her. She’s also getting even more clingy and huggy-kissy with me and her dad…but also the neighbors, friends, store clerks,etc….it’s so embarrassing. I mean, I want her to be a friendly, outgoing person, but this turns so many people, myself included, away from her(and it scares me that she is this way with just anybody…this could end her up in a LOT of trouble). I have been really proud of myself lately for the way I have been dealing with her….I havent been losing control, and I never let her know she is pissing me off. When at all possible, I make sure DH witnesses this behavior and I let HIM deal with it. But usually I just explain why her behavior is wrong or inappropriate, give her some options that would work better in whatever situation we are dealing with…and either give her a warning or dole out an appropriate punishment(standing in the corner or going without TV are the most effective at this point). Am I doing the right thing? Anyone know of anything else that may work better? Today I am sending a note to school for the counselor, as she hasnt yet started seeing them and I think both kids need to start going. I think a lot of the problem is, of course, BM. SD has been telling these outrageous stories to her friends, about how great it is at her mom’s house, that her mom really wants her to go live with her cuz she loves her so much, and that she will be coming for her soon. That BM takes her to concerts and fancy restaurants, sends her letters and gifts all the time, and calls her at least a couple times a week. I realize this is just something she needs to do to rationalize her mother’s real behavior, which is that she hasnt contacted the kids in any way since the first week of August, leaves them with grandparents or sitters when they are with her, and is too drunk most of the time to do anything but scream at them. I feel sorry for her, I really do…and wish there was something more I could do. I try to make the kids feel as safe, loved, and comfortable as possible, but I can only imagine what it is like to be abandoned by your own mother. So what I am wondering here, is if I am doing the right thing….if there is anything I am doing wrong or not doing at all…and if her behavior is typical of this age, or if she is having some very serious emotional/mental problems. What do you think? Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

In article <7s7qd4$5g…@nnrp1.deja.com>, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -  apriltar…@my-deja.com wrote: > okay…not having a lot of experience with kids up until becoming a > CSM, I cant always separate intentional "bad" behavior from "normal" > childhood behavior. SD is 7, almost 8. She’s the one who still talks > like a baby and sucks her thumb, yet she prances around the house like > Queen of Sheba and is always wanting to be given more "grown-up" > priveleges, but her demands for attention(whining, deliberately teasing > or hurting her brother or our pets, acting helpless, etc) are nerve- > wracking. She has such a mouth lately, talks back to her friends, me > and her father, other adults(though as far as her teachers are > concerned, she is the most polite, sweetest, kindest little girl they > have ever known…talk about split personality). If asked to do > something, she first asks why, then pouts the entire time she is doing > the task, stomping and muttering under her breath. Then she will do the > job half-ass, and usually needs to be told 3 or 4 times to finish it > thouroughly. Then she stomps around and wont talk to anyone afterwards, > sometimes crying because we are apparently so mean to force her to do > such evil things (cleaning her room, picking up after herself, putting > away dishes, etc). Then, her lying is getting out of control again. We > have caught her time and time again in a lie, yet she will continue to > tell even more lies to get out of it, or completely deny that she > did/said something, even if we catch her in the act. Then of course, > she gets angry when we punish her. She’s also getting even more clingy > and huggy-kissy with me and her dad…but also the neighbors, friends, > store clerks,etc….it’s so embarrassing. I mean, I want her to be a > friendly, outgoing person, but this turns so many people, myself > included, away from her(and it scares me that she is this way with just > anybody…this could end her up in a LOT of trouble). I have been > really proud of myself lately for the way I have been dealing with > her….I havent been losing control, and I never let her know she is > pissing me off. When at all possible, I make sure DH witnesses this > behavior and I let HIM deal with it. But usually I just explain why her > behavior is wrong or inappropriate, give her some options that would > work better in whatever situation we are dealing with…and either give > her a warning or dole out an appropriate punishment(standing in the > corner or going without TV are the most effective at this point). Am I > doing the right thing? Anyone know of anything else that may work > better? > Today I am sending a note to school for the counselor, as she hasnt yet > started seeing them and I think both kids need to start going. I think > a lot of the problem is, of course, BM. SD has been telling these > outrageous stories to her friends, about how great it is at her mom’s > house, that her mom really wants her to go live with her cuz she loves > her so much, and that she will be coming for her soon. That BM takes > her to concerts and fancy restaurants, sends her letters and gifts all > the time, and calls her at least a couple times a week. I realize this > is just something she needs to do to rationalize her mother’s real > behavior, which is that she hasnt contacted the kids in any way since > the first week of August, leaves them with grandparents or sitters when > they are with her, and is too drunk most of the time to do anything but > scream at them. I feel sorry for her, I really do…and wish there was > something more I could do. I try to make the kids feel as safe, loved, > and comfortable as possible, but I can only imagine what it is like to > be abandoned by your own mother. So what I am wondering here, is if I > am doing the right thing….if there is anything I am doing wrong or > not doing at all…and if her behavior is typical of this age, or if > she is having some very serious emotional/mental problems. What do you > think? > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

april, hi, i think we have the same SD. my sd is almost 7 and has a lot of the same disturbing behavior going on. she doesn’t talk like a baby or suck her thumb however, the lies, manipulation, THE MOUTH!!!!! the mouth blows me away, and pisses me off to no end. we have her in counseling at this time. oddly enough, like you, her bm has abandoned her also. she doesn’t make up stories but does tell everyone how her mom is always going to jail and is on drugs. i find her manipulative efforts most UNchildlike, it disturbs me alot. she’s very devious etc but not enough to fool me, just her father. personally, i don’t think i know anymore how to handle this child but i can tell you that she cannot get away with stuff with me like her dad. he thinks i’m harsh but i simply cannot stand back and make excuses for her because she has no mom. my gut feeling is that this child is more disturbed mentally than even the counselor thinks. i can’t put my finger on it exactly but my instincts are always screaming ’she’s not right in the head’. beyond the abandonment issues. thereis a history of some stuff on her mom’s side-two uncles have commit suicide and her mom , i believe, is manic depressive among other things. SO is very defensive and clueless to most of this and that bothers me even more. i, otoh, have had lots of experience with kids and dont’ remember any on them acting like her at that age. i could be wrong and i’d be interested to see what others say on the subject. i’m also not one of sds biggest fans either.-largely due to the behavior and also, just a ‘feeling’ i have about her. sometimes she can behave fine but i still have a bad vibe about her. she is also regarded at school as very polite, cooperative, etc. you caught me on a bad day too, i’m feeling rather fed up with my sm position. sorry, no profound advice here, but you seem to be aware and that’s a good place to start. marie Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

    I know it’s hard – but I see a certain amount of this behavior as behavior she was born with.  Not everyone is friendly and outgoing.  I think that should be okay. Merrie Anne Robotti <robo…@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message

news:37E7C6A8.C203D671@worldnet.att.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Merrie, it probably isn’t *helpful* to dislike the behavior, but having > lived through it I know that it’s IMPOSSIBLE not to dislike the behavior. > SD still does it, if I thought she was going to do this until she was > 18 I’d just go ahead and kill myself now. > Anne > Merrie wrote: > > It’s like your husband wanting you to be more analytical.  Since her clingly > > behavior may stem from thinking that people, who are supposed to love her do > > not like her, it probably isn’t helpful to dislike that behavior.

Response:

Okay, I will say this AGAIN! I KNOW she is the way she is….I am not saying anything bad about that(hey, I am was a terribly shy kid and in some ways still am, so I can see both sides of the coin here)….my whole point in this was that sd is and always WAS a friendly, outgoing person who makes friends easily and adapts well to situations(I am NOT forcing her to be something she’s not…this is the way she really is)…what worries me is that her aggressive, often bratty behavior is going to turn people off and that she will end up not having any friends. I just dont want to see her feelings get hurt or see her end up alone…that is why we are trying to nip her behavior in the bud now,  and teach her right and wrong, and hopefully instill some good morals and ethics along the way. I do want to say, for the record, that yes, we do dislike her behavior at times…but we do not fly off the handle at her anymore, or let her know how angry or upset we are…we simply try to explain to her what she did wrong and ways she could do things differently in the future, or make things better after this mistake. In article <7_SF3.407$tF1.10…@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net>,   "Merrie" <mer…@svn.net> wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->     I know it’s hard – but I see a certain amount of this behavior as > behavior she was born with.  Not everyone is friendly and outgoing. I think > that should be okay. > Merrie > Anne Robotti <robo…@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message > news:37E7C6A8.C203D671@worldnet.att.net… > > Merrie, it probably isn’t *helpful* to dislike the behavior, but having > > lived through it I know that it’s IMPOSSIBLE not to dislike the behavior. > > SD still does it, if I thought she was going to do this until she was > > 18 I’d just go ahead and kill myself now. > > Anne > > Merrie wrote: > > > It’s like your husband wanting you to be more analytical.  Since her > clingly > > > behavior may stem from thinking that people, who are supposed to love > her do > > > not like her, it probably isn’t helpful to dislike that behavior.

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Response:

Merrie, it probably isn’t *helpful* to dislike the behavior, but having lived through it I know that it’s IMPOSSIBLE not to dislike the behavior. SD still does it, if I thought she was going to do this until she was 18 I’d just go ahead and kill myself now. Anne – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Merrie wrote: > It’s like your husband wanting you to be more analytical.  Since her clingly > behavior may stem from thinking that people, who are supposed to love her do > not like her, it probably isn’t helpful to dislike that behavior.

Response:

April, me either! But a couple of things do stand out. I had heard somewhere, a long time ago, that if children hurt pets or smaller children that that’s a really bad sign. So I’m not addressing that behavior when I say that I think what we’re both dealing with is some really rotten behavior by kids who can get away with it and do. SD, this weekend, had to be asked three times to vaccuum the rug in the living room. First she did it just where the crackers were. Then she did just where the paper was. Finally I *yelled* at her, and she said in this really sulky voice, "Well I didn’t know you meant the whole thing!" Same thing the next day with picking up the toys. It’s SOOOOOOO annoying to have to stand over a ten year old to make sure she does something right. I think that vaccuuming a rug is something a five year old should be able to do. And the lying, don’t get me started. SD lies so constantly that I greet every statement now with, "Okay, whatever." I don’t even bother to get mad anymore at the latest thing that "Mommy said" or "Daddy said" or "I’m allowed to…"  Part of it, I admit, is my new "Not my problem" attitude, but part of it is the *certain* knowledge that I’m going to get all hyped up about this and it’s going to turn out to be another stupid lie. I’ve been told that this is a normal behavior for a seven to eight year old, and cer- tainly the peak of the lying was at that point. That, I believe, was the year that SD told her teacher that she was molested at our house, told her mother’s best friend that when I go away on business trips Daddy makes her sleep with him, told her friends that she didn’t want to come here because her Dad beats her… ah, the good years. The fun just never stopped back then… That was also the big year of the "Mommy said," "Anne said" lies, when I finally got on the phone with BM and told her (after she bitched me out for another SD lie) that she could believe SD all she wanted, but SD was making a fool of her and if she didn’t put a stop to it, the next lies would be, "No Mom, I’m not smoking pot and sleeping with my boyfriend." The stomping, muttering, mouthing off to adults… we’ve always had that. SD has been so nasty to my mother on occassion that I don’t let her go over there anymore. And it’s not just my Mom, she’s alienated almost every member of DH’s family too. Now, as to whether this is normal kids stuff, I know kids who don’t behave like that. I’ve got it pretty well under control in my house, I think. But I guess there are also kids that do. I find that when SD’s with us for a week, it’s four days of riding her really hard about everything, followed by three days when she tows the line. It’s a never-ending battle. Anne – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -apriltar…@my-deja.com wrote: > okay…not having a lot of experience with kids up until becoming a > CSM, I cant always separate intentional "bad" behavior from "normal" > childhood behavior. SD is 7, almost 8. She’s the one who still talks > like a baby and sucks her thumb, yet she prances around the house like > Queen of Sheba and is always wanting to be given more "grown-up" > priveleges, but her demands for attention(whining, deliberately teasing > or hurting her brother or our pets, acting helpless, etc) are nerve- > wracking. She has such a mouth lately, talks back to her friends, me > and her father, other adults(though as far as her teachers are > concerned, she is the most polite, sweetest, kindest little girl they > have ever known…talk about split personality). If asked to do > something, she first asks why, then pouts the entire time she is doing > the task, stomping and muttering under her breath. Then she will do the > job half-ass, and usually needs to be told 3 or 4 times to finish it > thouroughly. Then she stomps around and wont talk to anyone afterwards, > sometimes crying because we are apparently so mean to force her to do > such evil things (cleaning her room, picking up after herself, putting > away dishes, etc). Then, her lying is getting out of control again. We > have caught her time and time again in a lie, yet she will continue to > tell even more lies to get out of it, or completely deny that she > did/said something, even if we catch her in the act. Then of course, > she gets angry when we punish her. She’s also getting even more clingy > and huggy-kissy with me and her dad…but also the neighbors, friends, > store clerks,etc….it’s so embarrassing. I mean, I want her to be a > friendly, outgoing person, but this turns so many people, myself > included, away from her(and it scares me that she is this way with just > anybody…this could end her up in a LOT of trouble). I have been > really proud of myself lately for the way I have been dealing with > her….I havent been losing control, and I never let her know she is > pissing me off. When at all possible, I make sure DH witnesses this > behavior and I let HIM deal with it. But usually I just explain why her > behavior is wrong or inappropriate, give her some options that would > work better in whatever situation we are dealing with…and either give > her a warning or dole out an appropriate punishment(standing in the > corner or going without TV are the most effective at this point). Am I > doing the right thing? Anyone know of anything else that may work > better? > Today I am sending a note to school for the counselor, as she hasnt yet > started seeing them and I think both kids need to start going. I think > a lot of the problem is, of course, BM. SD has been telling these > outrageous stories to her friends, about how great it is at her mom’s > house, that her mom really wants her to go live with her cuz she loves > her so much, and that she will be coming for her soon. That BM takes > her to concerts and fancy restaurants, sends her letters and gifts all > the time, and calls her at least a couple times a week. I realize this > is just something she needs to do to rationalize her mother’s real > behavior, which is that she hasnt contacted the kids in any way since > the first week of August, leaves them with grandparents or sitters when > they are with her, and is too drunk most of the time to do anything but > scream at them. I feel sorry for her, I really do…and wish there was > something more I could do. I try to make the kids feel as safe, loved, > and comfortable as possible, but I can only imagine what it is like to > be abandoned by your own mother. So what I am wondering here, is if I > am doing the right thing….if there is anything I am doing wrong or > not doing at all…and if her behavior is typical of this age, or if > she is having some very serious emotional/mental problems. What do you > think? > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Thanks, Marie….I am glad to have someone out there in my corner. My sk’s mom has a history of mental problems,too, not to mention the drinking and drugs….so that is why I worry as much as I do about sd’s erratic behavior…she can go for days being the perfect kid….then out of the blue she will do something really shocking or downright awful….I know a lot of it is just growing up…and of course the hurt she feels because of her mother(I know she is terrified I will leave her, too). I just want to see her get the help she needs to grow up healthy and happy. I dont want her to be someone she’s not, but I do want to help her live up to her potential, which I really dont think is a bad thing. I will probly get slaughtered for this first post, as I think a few people will take it the wrong way….but oh, well. I know what I meant, hehe! Anyway….hang in there, hope things get better with your sd….and keep your fingers crossed for me, too! In article <7s8djn$k8…@nnrp1.deja.com>, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -  marie…@my-deja.com wrote: > In article <7s7qd4$5g…@nnrp1.deja.com>, >   apriltar…@my-deja.com wrote: > > okay…not having a lot of experience with kids up until becoming a > > CSM, I cant always separate intentional "bad" behavior from "normal" > > childhood behavior. SD is 7, almost 8. She’s the one who still talks > > like a baby and sucks her thumb, yet she prances around the house like > > Queen of Sheba and is always wanting to be given more "grown-up" > > priveleges, but her demands for attention(whining, deliberately teasing > > or hurting her brother or our pets, acting helpless, etc) are nerve- > > wracking. She has such a mouth lately, talks back to her friends, me > > and her father, other adults(though as far as her teachers are > > concerned, she is the most polite, sweetest, kindest little girl they > > have ever known…talk about split personality). If asked to do > > something, she first asks why, then pouts the entire time she is doing > > the task, stomping and muttering under her breath. Then she will do the > > job half-ass, and usually needs to be told 3 or 4 times to finish it > > thouroughly. Then she stomps around and wont talk to anyone afterwards, > > sometimes crying because we are apparently so mean to force her to do > > such evil things (cleaning her room, picking up after herself, putting > > away dishes, etc). Then, her lying is getting out of control again. We > > have caught her time and time again in a lie, yet she will continue to > > tell even more lies to get out of it, or completely deny that she > > did/said something, even if we catch her in the act. Then of course, > > she gets angry when we punish her. She’s also getting even more clingy > > and huggy-kissy with me and her dad…but also the neighbors, friends, > > store clerks,etc….it’s so embarrassing. I mean, I want her to be a > > friendly, outgoing person, but this turns so many people, myself > > included, away from her(and it scares me that she is this way with just > > anybody…this could end her up in a LOT of trouble). I have been > > really proud of myself lately for the way I have been dealing with > > her….I havent been losing control, and I never let her know she is > > pissing me off. When at all possible, I make sure DH witnesses this > > behavior and I let HIM deal with it. But usually I just explain why her > > behavior is wrong or inappropriate, give her some options that would > > work better in whatever situation we are dealing with…and either give > > her a warning or dole out an appropriate punishment(standing in the > > corner or going without TV are the most effective at this point). Am I > > doing the right thing? Anyone know of anything else that may work > > better? > > Today I am sending a note to school for the counselor, as she hasnt yet > > started seeing them and I think both kids need to start going. I think > > a lot of the problem is, of course, BM. SD has been telling these > > outrageous stories to her friends, about how great it is at her mom’s > > house, that her mom really wants her to go live with her cuz she loves > > her so much, and that she will be coming for her soon. That BM takes > > her to concerts and fancy restaurants, sends her letters and gifts all > > the time, and calls her at least a couple times a week. I realize this > > is just something she needs to do to rationalize her mother’s real > > behavior, which is that she hasnt contacted the kids in any way since > > the first week of August, leaves them with grandparents or sitters when > > they are with her, and is too drunk most of the time to do anything but > > scream at them. I feel sorry for her, I really do…and wish there was > > something more I could do. I try to make the kids feel as safe, loved, > > and comfortable as possible, but I can only imagine what it is like to > > be abandoned by your own mother. So what I am wondering here, is if I > > am doing the right thing….if there is anything I am doing wrong or > > not doing at all…and if her behavior is typical of this age, or if > > she is having some very serious emotional/mental problems. What do you > > think? > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > > Share what you know. Learn what you don’t. > april, hi, i think we have the same SD. my sd is almost 7 and has a lot of > the same disturbing behavior going on. she doesn’t talk like a baby or suck > her thumb however, the lies, manipulation, THE MOUTH!!!!! the mouth blows me > away, and pisses me off to no end. we have her in counseling at this time. > oddly enough, like you, her bm has abandoned her also. she doesn’t make up > stories but does tell everyone how her mom is always going to jail and is on > drugs. i find her manipulative efforts most UNchildlike, it disturbs me alot. > she’s very devious etc but not enough to fool me, just her father. > personally, i don’t think i know anymore how to handle this child but i can > tell you that she cannot get away with stuff with me like her dad. he thinks > i’m harsh but i simply cannot stand back and make excuses for her because she > has no mom. my gut feeling is that this child is more disturbed mentally than > even the counselor thinks. i can’t put my finger on it exactly but my > instincts are always screaming ’she’s not right in the head’. beyond the > abandonment issues. thereis a history of some stuff on her mom’s side- two > uncles have commit suicide and her mom , i believe, is manic depressive among > other things. SO is very defensive and clueless to most of this and that > bothers me even more. i, otoh, have had lots of experience with kids and > dont’ remember any on them acting like her at that age. i could be wrong and > i’d be interested to see what others say on the subject. i’m also not one of > sds biggest fans either.-largely due to the behavior and also, just a > ‘feeling’ i have about her. sometimes she can behave fine but i still have a > bad vibe about her. she is also regarded at school as very polite, > cooperative, etc. you caught me on a bad day too, i’m feeling rather fed up > with my sm position. sorry, no profound advice here, but you seem to be aware > and that’s a good place to start. marie > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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Response:

She sounds just like how my stepson used to be at the same age. He’s just turned 10 now. he came to live with us aged 6.5 and aged 7 did exactly the same as your SD. As for the question – is it normal or not – well all kids do this to a certain extent, but interestingly both the BM of my SS and the BM of your SD are both alcoholics. Everytime we asked SS to do something he would ask why.  Why? Because if he did that when he lived with his BM it would become ‘too hard’ for her to deal with because it’s a sure sign he’s about to dig his heels in. She would therefore give in and not try and get him to do whatever it was in the first place. We tried explaining each time why he had to do something and the only result, even if he had to do it eventually was that he got more attention for questioning us which further re-inforced the behaviour. We stopped doing that and starting saying ‘because I asked you to’ as the only response. He HATED this at the beginning because we were ‘changing the rules’ and reacted badly, but we kept doing it. He pushed and pushed and pushed, but eventually realised that we weren’t going to cave in like his mother had and he had just better do it.  It’s very hard, and I think we must have done it a thousand times before it sank in. See Kevin’s post about ‘weekend and pokemon’ to Melissa about why kids test the boundaries …. I think your SD is doing this. As for whining etc and being clingy – we used to call SS on it and then not respond further. We called it ’sucky’ behaviour.  So a simple ‘SS you are being sucky again’ (he knew what that meant) and withdrawal of attention eventually worked. At the same time we taught him to come and ask for a hug if he wanted love, and we explained how people are much more likely to give love when asked genuinely rather than when it’s being dragged out of them. If he didn’t stop being sucky he got to go to his room until he could return without being sucky.  Again we did this a 1000 times. About the ‘doing the job’ thing – again it sounds like my SS!!! He once spent 5 hours cleaning his rabbits out (a 30 minute job) just to try and make me and SO feel guilty about being such horrible parents for daring to ask him to actually perform a task. Yes it was hard. He tried to come in every 10 minutes etc but we stuck it out and he didn’t bother with that one again. We also implemented the ‘i am not going to feel guilty about asking you to do this SS so don’t waste your breath, thank you’. He still occasionally makes out like we are the most disgusting horrible parents in the world because we want him to tidy his room but not much really. I would offer your SD the task and tell her that she will be doing it. Give her a time to complete it by, and a clear indication of the standard that she must do the job to. If she hits it – give her an instant reward. A sweet and a cuddle and a well done would work. If she doesn’t do the job properly make her re-do it. Even if you have to get her to do it again 100 times. If she’s stomping and muttering use the ‘i shan’t feel guilty’ line and then completely ignore her until she finishes.  After these occasions when you’ve eventually got her to do it have a talk about why she isn’t getting her sweet. Explain that it makes no difference to you whether she takes 2 hours or 10 minutes to do it and that she’s just making it hard on herself. She’ll soon learn. Also on the lying. Sounds like my SS again! He used to become very sullen when caught out in a lie and then if we didn’t become guilty or tell him we believe him he would become furious! It was all just tactics to try and batter us down. When we didn’t he realised we were serious. Timeout per lie I reckon or some other similar withdrawal of a treat that day or whatever.  What also got through to my SS was that genuinely when he did tell the truth we sometimes didn’t believe him because he had lied so much! So keep your eye out for that and use it as an explanation point. Also talk to your SD about how would she feel if she was lied to all of the time. Don’t forget that she was and is by her BM which is why she does it to such an extent. My SS also had a huge shame problem. So even when caught lying, he would lie further, rather than tell the truth and deal with it because it was so shameful. So each time he did this we would say ‘this is your cue to tell the truth’ and ‘yes you’re in a bit of trouble for lying, but if you tell the truth now you’ll be in much less trouble than if you lie again’. Again you’ll have to do it 1000 times but it will eventually get through. If she does lie, and then tells the truth reward her MASSIVELY! Not with a treat but with a big ‘i am proud of you’ sort of thing. Ask her if she feels better because she will. Tell her how proud she should be of herself. Once she learns that telling the truth after a lie makes you feel better she will eventually realise not lying in the first place is even nicer. Keep up the good work and email me if you want Nikki – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -apriltar…@my-deja.com wrote: > okay…not having a lot of experience with kids up until becoming a > CSM, I cant always separate intentional "bad" behavior from "normal" > childhood behavior. SD is 7, almost 8. She’s the one who still talks > like a baby and sucks her thumb, yet she prances around the house like > Queen of Sheba and is always wanting to be given more "grown-up" > priveleges, but her demands for attention(whining, deliberately teasing > or hurting her brother or our pets, acting helpless, etc) are nerve- > wracking. She has such a mouth lately, talks back to her friends, me > and her father, other adults(though as far as her teachers are > concerned, she is the most polite, sweetest, kindest little girl they > have ever known…talk about split personality). If asked to do > something, she first asks why, then pouts the entire time she is doing > the task, stomping and muttering under her breath. Then she will do the > job half-ass, and usually needs to be told 3 or 4 times to finish it > thouroughly. Then she stomps around and wont talk to anyone afterwards, > sometimes crying because we are apparently so mean to force her to do > such evil things (cleaning her room, picking up after herself, putting > away dishes, etc). Then, her lying is getting out of control again. We > have caught her time and time again in a lie, yet she will continue to > tell even more lies to get out of it, or completely deny that she > did/said something, even if we catch her in the act. Then of course, > she gets angry when we punish her. She’s also getting even more clingy > and huggy-kissy with me and her dad…but also the neighbors, friends, > store clerks,etc….it’s so embarrassing. I mean, I want her to be a > friendly, outgoing person, but this turns so many people, myself > included, away from her(and it scares me that she is this way with just > anybody…this could end her up in a LOT of trouble). I have been > really proud of myself lately for the way I have been dealing with > her….I havent been losing control, and I never let her know she is > pissing me off. When at all possible, I make sure DH witnesses this > behavior and I let HIM deal with it. But usually I just explain why her > behavior is wrong or inappropriate, give her some options that would > work better in whatever situation we are dealing with…and either give > her a warning or dole out an appropriate punishment(standing in the > corner or going without TV are the most effective at this point). Am I > doing the right thing? Anyone know of anything else that may work > better? > Today I am sending a note to school for the counselor, as she hasnt yet > started seeing them and I think both kids need to start going. I think > a lot of the problem is, of course, BM. SD has been telling these > outrageous stories to her friends, about how great it is at her mom’s > house, that her mom really wants her to go live with her cuz she loves > her so much, and that she will be coming for her soon. That BM takes > her to concerts and fancy restaurants, sends her letters and gifts all > the time, and calls her at least a couple times a week. I realize this > is just something she needs to do to rationalize her mother’s real > behavior, which is that she hasnt contacted the kids in any way since > the first week of August, leaves them with grandparents or sitters when > they are with her, and is too drunk most of the time to do anything but > scream at them. I feel sorry for her, I really do…and wish there was > something more I could do. I try to make the kids feel as safe, loved, > and comfortable as possible, but I can only imagine what it is like to > be abandoned by your own mother. So what I am wondering here, is if I > am doing the right thing….if there is anything I am doing wrong or > not doing at all…and if her behavior is typical of this age, or if > she is having some very serious emotional/mental problems. What do you > think? > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

    Remember you asked:         I want to respond to two issues.     Yes – I think her behavior is typical of 7.5 – 8.  This age tends to feel persecuted.  No body likes me, the teacher’s too strict on me, I must be adopted… 7 is a complainer, and an exaggerator.  You should be reasonably sympathetic, but don’t take the complaints too seriously.     I have to take issue with your statement about wanting "her to be a friendly, outgoing person."  While there’s nothing wrong with wanting this for your kids – there is something wrong with not accepting her as she is. It’s like your husband wanting you to be more analytical.  Since her clingly behavior may stem from thinking that people, who are supposed to love her do not like her, it probably isn’t helpful to dislike that behavior. Merrie <apriltar…@my-deja.com> wrote in message

news:7s7qd4$5g8$1@nnrp1.deja.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> okay…not having a lot of experience with kids up until becoming a > CSM, I cant always separate intentional "bad" behavior from "normal" > childhood behavior. SD is 7, almost 8. She’s the one who still talks > like a baby and sucks her thumb, yet she prances around the house like > Queen of Sheba and is always wanting to be given more "grown-up" > priveleges, but her demands for attention(whining, deliberately teasing > or hurting her brother or our pets, acting helpless, etc) are nerve- > wracking. She has such a mouth lately, talks back to her friends, me > and her father, other adults(though as far as her teachers are > concerned, she is the most polite, sweetest, kindest little girl they > have ever known…talk about split personality). If asked to do > something, she first asks why, then pouts the entire time she is doing > the task, stomping and muttering under her breath. Then she will do the > job half-ass, and usually needs to be told 3 or 4 times to finish it > thouroughly. Then she stomps around and wont talk to anyone afterwards, > sometimes crying because we are apparently so mean to force her to do > such evil things (cleaning her room, picking up after herself, putting > away dishes, etc). Then, her lying is getting out of control again. We > have caught her time and time again in a lie, yet she will continue to > tell even more lies to get out of it, or completely deny that she > did/said something, even if we catch her in the act. Then of course, > she gets angry when we punish her. She’s also getting even more clingy > and huggy-kissy with me and her dad…but also the neighbors, friends, > store clerks,etc….it’s so embarrassing. I mean, I want her to be a > friendly, outgoing person, but this turns so many people, myself > included, away from her(and it scares me that she is this way with just > anybody…this could end her up in a LOT of trouble). I have been > really proud of myself lately for the way I have been dealing with > her….I havent been losing control, and I never let her know she is > pissing me off. When at all possible, I make sure DH witnesses this > behavior and I let HIM deal with it. But usually I just explain why her > behavior is wrong or inappropriate, give her some options that would > work better in whatever situation we are dealing with…and either give > her a warning or dole out an appropriate punishment(standing in the > corner or going without TV are the most effective at this point). Am I > doing the right thing? Anyone know of anything else that may work > better? > Today I am sending a note to school for the counselor, as she hasnt yet > started seeing them and I think both kids need to start going. I think > a lot of the problem is, of course, BM. SD has been telling these > outrageous stories to her friends, about how great it is at her mom’s > house, that her mom really wants her to go live with her cuz she loves > her so much, and that she will be coming for her soon. That BM takes > her to concerts and fancy restaurants, sends her letters and gifts all > the time, and calls her at least a couple times a week. I realize this > is just something she needs to do to rationalize her mother’s real > behavior, which is that she hasnt contacted the kids in any way since > the first week of August, leaves them with grandparents or sitters when > they are with her, and is too drunk most of the time to do anything but > scream at them. I feel sorry for her, I really do…and wish there was > something more I could do. I try to make the kids feel as safe, loved, > and comfortable as possible, but I can only imagine what it is like to > be abandoned by your own mother. So what I am wondering here, is if I > am doing the right thing….if there is anything I am doing wrong or > not doing at all…and if her behavior is typical of this age, or if > she is having some very serious emotional/mental problems. What do you > think? > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

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