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***Shill Bidding Prevention on eBay***

Question:

"***Shill Bidding Prevention on eBay***" I wish they would check IP addresses (they might now). In fact, I wish they would post on the bid page the IP address from where the bid came from. It would help a lot (yes I know there are a lot of proxy servers but most still use good old dial-up)

     I’m certain they do log and maintain IP addresses for all user events where UserID and passwords have to be entered-examples: leaving a bid,  leaving feedback,  joining, etc. This is so easy to do and the IP address don’t lie-certainly not when 2 UserIDs are frolicing around the system with the same IP within a short time span.      I don’t think they want to publish this fact  because so many amateur shillers and eBay users (Internet users in general) are such technical nincompoops that this becomes the easiest way to catch most of them. They are clueless that they are leaving such an easily detected trail through the eBay system or think that having a Hotmail address makes them anonymous.     Maybe eBay thinks that by publishing the IP address of the bidder on the page,  these corrupt bidders will realize how they’re being caught and perhaps educate themselves in other ways to avoid detection, which, of course, would make it harder for eBay to catch them-magic software or not???      I am glad to read that eBay will be randomly auditing UserId activity for violations in addition to just depending on concerned user reports of suspicious activity as they do now!  Good step in the right direction.    

Response:

I would guess that they do log IP adresses already for anything that requires a password.  I do not mind them logging my IP address, but I certainly do not want them publishing it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "***Shill Bidding Prevention on eBay***" I wish they would check IP addresses (they might now). In fact, I wish they would post on the bid page the IP address from where the bid came from. It would help a lot (yes I know there are a lot of proxy servers but most still use good old dial-up)

Response:

But, you do know it’s on every post you write?  you just shared yours with everyone– publicly.. (btw it was 64.160.45.xxx)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would guess that they do log IP adresses already for anything that requires a password.  I do not mind them logging my IP address, but I certainly do not want them publishing it. "***Shill Bidding Prevention on eBay***" I wish they would check IP addresses (they might now). In fact, I wish they would post on the bid page the IP address from where the bid came from. It would help a lot (yes I know there are a lot of proxy servers but most still use good old dial-up)

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "***Shill Bidding Prevention on eBay***" I wish they would check IP addresses (they might now). In fact, I wish they would post on the bid page the IP address from where the bid came from. It would help a lot (yes I know there are a lot of proxy servers but most still use good old dial-up)     I’m certain they do log and maintain IP addresses for all user events where UserID and passwords have to be entered-examples: leaving a bid,  leaving feedback,  joining, etc. This is so easy to do and the IP address don’t lie-certainly not when 2 UserIDs are frolicing around the system with the same IP within a short time span.     I don’t think they want to publish this fact  because so many amateur shillers and eBay users (Internet users in general) are such technical nincompoops that this becomes the easiest way to catch most of them. They are clueless that they are leaving such an easily detected trail through the eBay system or think that having a Hotmail address makes them anonymous.    Maybe eBay thinks that by publishing the IP address of the bidder on the page,  these corrupt bidders will realize how they’re being caught and perhaps educate themselves in other ways to avoid detection, which, of course, would make it harder for eBay to catch them-magic software or not???     I am glad to read that eBay will be randomly auditing UserId activity for violations in addition to just depending on concerned user reports of suspicious activity as they do now!  Good step in the right direction.    

While its always good news that real crooks will have it a bit harder, I wish ebay would clean their own house first. Their email replys are a joke, their HTML code is riddled with problems, they do so many things that irritate their customers, and all this could be addressed if they would channel some of their resources. We still cant get the address of a bidder or even winning bidder so if the guy has email lproblems we must resort to trying a reverse lookup phone directory to find it.  They might work on that. But this IP address thing could have some real problems. There have been times when a visitor placed bids on an item, sometimes MY items, using my computer as I watched. Certainly legal but it might not look so to a half-baked survey by ebays less-than-expert techs. Once, I even placed a bid for a guy, with his full consent, and as a favor. (He didnt win). I also question what happens when a guy willingly buys back his own item, pays the comissiong and everything. You know, his wife is pissed he sold a wedding present, whatever. Yes, there are better ways to do it but not everyone understands that. Seems like power sellers will shill away unmolested anyway. Maybe there is no answer.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would guess that they do log IP adresses already for anything that requires a password.  I do not mind them logging my IP address, but I certainly do not want them publishing it. "***Shill Bidding Prevention on eBay***" I wish they would check IP addresses (they might now). In fact, I wish they would post on the bid page the IP address from where the bid came from. It would help a lot (yes I know there are a lot of proxy servers but most still use good old dial-up)

They can log mine all they want: its different every time! Many ISPs assign random addresses in a block. You would have to do your dirty work all in the same session to be exposed. Hey, I’m often on line with two IP’s at once, one on 56k, one on ISDN. Ebay is a bit naive if they think that solves anything.

Response:

We’ve just replaced Big Ticket Items’s post to alt.marketing.online.ebay with new Folger’s Crystals. Let’s see if anyone notices: Remember, not all eBay scammers have an IQ over 130.

I think you mean 100 (average). An IQ of 130 is the lower end of genius (2 standard deviations from average).    Alby’s Law: Some days are actually worth the trouble of waking up.    Corollaries:  1. This is not one of those days.                  2. If it chances to be, see Corollary 1.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But, you do know it’s on every post you write?  you just shared yours with everyone– publicly.. (btw it was 64.160.45.xxx) Dont try to respond to that IP tomorrow. It could be another user entirely. Yep. It will almost certainly be another user tomorrow! But ISPs are required to keep logs of what user was using what IP when.  That log will be available if there is a record if a court order or inquiry is presented.

In practice,  I doubt if these logs are always kept for long and perhaps they are not in  a format that would prove much. Some customers would stop using an ISP that made this stuff available. True, the police can get this info when persuing a crook but I’m not sure I’d want private businesses like ebay snooping in my affairs and I dont think many ISPs would help them But the IP also can reveal quite a lot about a user.  In this case, he’s around the Bay area, using a PacBell DSL connection with his ISP either Prodigy or Flash (which was recently purchased by Prodigy.)

If it was a small ISP this would be more damning evidence than if the guy used a free access or a big ISP like Mindspring.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – They can log mine all they want: its different every time! Many ISPs assign random addresses in a block. You would have to do your dirty work all in the same session to be exposed. Hey, I’m often on line with two IP’s at once, one on 56k, one on ISDN. Ebay is a bit naive if they think that solves anything. Of course, which is why the use of IP is _only one tool_.  An accomplished shiller with only rudimentary knowledge of how TCP/IP works, some basic hacking skills, lots of on-ramps, helpful friends and a little creativity can easily defeat any IP whistleblowing software. (but let’s not get into specifics and give them any ideas, eh?)

I got a feeling a lot of "Powersellers" already know far too much. But you’d be surprised how many people they do catch doing all their dirty work in one short session where that dynamically assigned IP remains the same! I’ve seen users get axed for making 4 or 5 bids with 2 or more userIDs on an item within *minutes* of each other.  They are truly clueless that they aren’t being detected.  You know they are sitting at home thinking "Godh, how did they catch me, I used different IDs?"  Duh.  The IP from those bids is identical. Even if they are dialing up into an ISPs modem pool, most times only the last grouping of numbers will change, it’s still easy to detect that all the activity is *likely* coming from the same user.

It still does not take into account that more than one person might be using the computer. There are many times when a group gathers in a dorm room to use chat rooms, etc., and if s few people decide to visit ebay they could appear to be shilling when they are not. I know of kids who while at school experience problems with their computers and camp onto friends boxes. I’d hate to see them falsly accused. These guys buy lots of stuff from me.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Dont try to respond to that IP tomorrow. It could be another user entirely." The point was all the bids (and IPs)  placed *now* during your session would be logged. Ie: shill bidding. If I saw your eBAY ID sign-on as a seller and gather email addresses from (your) auctions and ALSO bid using another ID on your auctions with the same IP then that would be shilling. Most people still dial-up using AOL, CS, MSN, etc.. that’s the norm. Some message boards include the IP address in the message of the person posting the message. Remember, not all eBay scammers have an IQ over 130.

Yes, you could catch somebody playing games in the same session. But the person could also claim that a bunch of friends were gathered around a computer and all used it during the same session. If it were a students dorm room for instance, its a believable story. The guy could also claim his box was down and he had to use his neighbors. There are a number of plausibly deniable scripts that could actually PROTECT a shiller.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – While its always good news that real crooks will have it a bit harder, I wish ebay would clean their own house first. Their email replys are a joke, their HTML code is riddled with problems, they do so many things that irritate their customers, and all this could be addressed if they would channel some of their resources. I agree with you that eBay has a bit of work to do everywhere in the system.  But everyone (buyers, sellers, power sellers, stockholders, insiders) has different priorities, different proposed solutions, and not everyone is going to be pleased with everything eBay does. We still cant get the address of a bidder or even winning bidder so if the guy has email lproblems we must resort to trying a reverse lookup phone directory to find it.  They might work on that. Why do you need the address of a bidder if you first haven’t contacted him to clarify payment, shipping, etc?  The phone number (which is provided by eBay) is a much more efficient way of doing this rather than by mail. If he has already sent paypal, his address will most likely be with his Paypal payment notification. The online reverse phone directories are notoriously known for being out of date, why would you trust them?  Besides, he may want the item shipped to a different address.

First, lets understand that not everyone uses paypal. I dont even accept it. What has happened to me, more than once is this. I send email after email to a buyer, no response. Yet he has good fb. I guess that he is not getting my emails or else he IS responding but they are not reaching me. Why? Who knows? If I could write to him I could at least make him aware. But ebay will not divulge the address nor will they relay an email to test the integrity of the email address. So, I file a NPB alert and maybe a FVF only to eventually find the buyer was trying to complete the deal. THis HAS happened to me, more than once. If ebay wanted to help, they would agree to forward a letter or at least attempt to contact the person. But they wont. But this IP address thing could have some real problems. There have been times when a visitor placed bids on an item, sometimes MY items, using my computer as I watched. Certainly legal but it might not look so to a half-baked survey by ebays less-than-expert techs. You are playing with fire here if you are doing this to your items. It would be very hard to convince eBay that the bidder on your computer, bidding on your item is not acting as your agent to push the bid.  It’s not worth it.

A bidder should be able to place a bid from anywhere he wishes. Its been brought up that a bidder might use the computer in a public library or school, place of business or cafe. When my bidder is a neighbor, known to me, I’m not going to chase away business if he wishes to bid while visiting me. Again, this has happened to me more than once. Perfectly above board and ethical. If ebay wants to keep track of us they must account for these situations. Once, I even placed a bid for a guy, with his full consent, and as a favor. (He didnt win). Again, not smart.  Either on your part or on his (giving up his ID and password.)

Disagree. Have you ever mailed a letter for someone else, or paid a bill for someone you trust. What business has ebay to restrict me in doing a person a perfectly legal favor? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I also question what happens when a guy willingly buys back his own item, pays the comissiong and everything. You know, his wife is pissed he sold a wedding present, whatever. Yes, there are better ways to do it but not everyone understands that. As you know, eBay considers this shilling.  No exceptions. (When I first started on eBay 2 years ago, the seller WAS allowed to place ONE bid on his own item if he wanted to buy it back or get his target price.  It was misused, or eBay was losing reserve fees <g, so it was discontinued.)  The appropriate response is to cancel the bids then end the auction. A disgruntled bidder who didn’t get the item might report this if they think the auction looks suspicious and the seller will be NARU’d.  eBay isn’t a court.  They look at the evidence and act.  I actually think they most generously give too many people the benefit of the doubt!

Thats my point. Granted, these situations will be rare, but that doesnt mean ebay should misinterpret them and ebay is well known for ignoring explanations. Personally, I would consider it stupid to do it that way; the seller could simply cancel bids and stop the auction. But does everyone know this? I think some new bidders dont. They should. But that doesnt mean they do. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Seems like power sellers will shill away unmolested anyway. Maybe there is no answer. Yes, it even happens at real auctions like Sotheby’s.  The determined find their way if the rewards are high enough.   Many people are pushing for the use of credit cards to register any User ID, not just sellers.  So that any ID can be linked to a specific individual.  I can certainly see where this would help keep the sub 18’s inactive,  and be a helpful tool in the fight against shilling, etc.  But it _could_ will also hamper efforts to build eBay’s buyer base — which is what all the sellers are bitching about:"too many sellers", yada yada…I know the gripes are there about the bidders not following through, but many people not already on eBay are the types that are hesitant about providing personal information over the internet, may not have a cc, etc. I do think that the key to eBay’s continued success is to make the buyers feel safe and comfortable dealing with the sellers.  There are bad dogs everywhere and the generalized fingerpointing doesn’t help solve any problems.

Certainly does not. I know one seller/buyer who refuses to get a credit card. His personal view. I think its foolish but I’m not him. He brings me ocaisional items to sell but he bids and buys lots of stuff. I wouldnt want to see people like him unable to buy MY stuff.

Response:

"Even then, there could be many exceptions to the rule… take for example an office building running a private LAN (192.168.0.xxx IP family) all connected through the same Internet provider… you could have someone from the department upstairs bid on your auction, theoretically (and yes, this kind of thing can and does happen occasionally)…" This world is filled with exceptions to the rule and approximations ;-) I was looking at something that would identify shill bidders more often than making the odd few mistakes.

Response:

But, you do know it’s on every post you write?  you just shared yours with everyone– publicly.. (btw it was 64.160.45.xxx) Dont try to respond to that IP tomorrow. It could be another user entirely.

No shit.. the same as it could be for web logs of bid history every time I disconnect, and reconnect (56k dialup) I get a new ip But they are all within the first three sets of numbers, as mindspring holds me in that range for my pop.. so one day it may be  3f.32.83.ef and another it might be  3f.32.83.ea

Response:

I also question what happens when a guy willingly buys back his own item, pays the comissiong and everything. You know, his wife is pissed he sold a wedding present, whatever. Yes, there are better ways to do it but not everyone understands that. The correct way to do this is to cancel all bids and cancel the auction. You still pay your listing fee. Peter

Definatly. But I’ve seen occaisions when the person didnt realise this. True, if you are gonna list you should know the ropes but I’ve gotten some things wrong at times and I’m sure others do to. This proceedure isnt exactly obvious. Last time I had to do it I foolishly cancelled the auction first and then had to explain what I did to the one bidder. I’m glad there were not more bidders.

Response:

This world is filled with exceptions to the rule and approximations ;- ) I was looking at something that would identify shill bidders more often than making the odd few mistakes.

Agreed…. obviously the whole shill-bidder detection plan has to be a multi-fasceted approach taking various things into account. -Tim K.

Response:

But, you do know it’s on every post you write?  you just shared yours with everyone– publicly.. (btw it was 64.160.45.xxx)

Dont try to respond to that IP tomorrow. It could be another user entirely. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would guess that they do log IP adresses already for anything that requires a password.  I do not mind them logging my IP address, but I certainly do not want them publishing it. "***Shill Bidding Prevention on eBay***" I wish they would check IP addresses (they might now). In fact, I wish they would post on the bid page the IP address from where the bid came from. It would help a lot (yes I know there are a lot of proxy servers but most still use good old dial-up)

Response:

…  I do not mind them logging my IP address, but I certainly do not want them publishing it.

They can log mine all they want: its different every time! <etc

For non-static IPs, ie normal dialup through modem, only the last field is different each time. For example, right now mine is: 216.82.8.89 Only the ".89" part changes with each login..the rest not only narrows it down to the ISP of course, but even to rather specific parts of the country; certainly enough to indicate various shilling activity. And of course, cable modem and the various DSL flavors are static IP, EXACT same one each time. Dunno about ISDN, guess it’s like normal modem. — Mac ebay: doogle www.doogle.com

Response:

I also question what happens when a guy willingly buys back his own item, pays the comissiong and everything. You know, his wife is pissed he sold a wedding present, whatever. Yes, there are better ways to do it but not everyone understands that.

The correct way to do this is to cancel all bids and cancel the auction. You still pay your listing fee. Peter

Response:

"Dont try to respond to that IP tomorrow. It could be another user entirely." The point was all the bids (and IPs)  placed *now* during your session would be logged. Ie: shill bidding. If I saw your eBAY ID sign-on as a seller and gather email addresses from (your) auctions and ALSO bid using another ID on your auctions with the same IP then that would be shilling. Most people still dial-up using AOL, CS, MSN, etc.. that’s the norm. Some message boards include the IP address in the message of the person posting the message. Remember, not all eBay scammers have an IQ over 130.

Response:

If I saw your eBAY ID sign-on as a seller and gather email addresses from (your) auctions and ALSO bid using another ID on your auctions with the same IP then that would be shilling.

Even then, there could be many exceptions to the rule… take for example an office building running a private LAN (192.168.0.xxx IP family) all connected through the same Internet provider… you could have someone from the department upstairs bid on your auction, theoretically (and yes, this kind of thing can and does happen occasionally)… -Tim K.

Response:

They can log mine all they want: its different every time! Many ISPs assign random addresses in a block. You would have to do your dirty work all in the same session to be exposed. Hey, I’m often on line with two IP’s at once, one on 56k, one on ISDN. Ebay is a bit naive if they think that solves anything.

Of course, which is why the use of IP is _only one tool_.  An accomplished shiller with only rudimentary knowledge of how TCP/IP works, some basic hacking skills, lots of on-ramps, helpful friends and a little creativity can easily defeat any IP whistleblowing software. (but let’s not get into specifics and give them any ideas, eh?) But you’d be surprised how many people they do catch doing all their dirty work in one short session where that dynamically assigned IP remains the same! I’ve seen users get axed for making 4 or 5 bids with 2 or more userIDs on an item within *minutes* of each other.  They are truly clueless that they aren’t being detected.  You know they are sitting at home thinking "Godh, how did they catch me, I used different IDs?"  Duh.  The IP from those bids is identical. Even if they are dialing up into an ISPs modem pool, most times only the last grouping of numbers will change, it’s still easy to detect that all the activity is *likely* coming from the same user.

Response:

But, you do know it’s on every post you write?  you just shared yours with everyone– publicly.. (btw it was 64.160.45.xxx) Dont try to respond to that IP tomorrow. It could be another user entirely.

Yep. It will almost certainly be another user tomorrow! But ISPs are required to keep logs of what user was using what IP when.  That log will be available if there is a record if a court order or inquiry is presented. But the IP also can reveal quite a lot about a user.  In this case, he’s around the Bay area, using a PacBell DSL connection with his ISP either Prodigy or Flash (which was recently purchased by Prodigy.)

Response:

While its always good news that real crooks will have it a bit harder, I wish ebay would clean their own house first. Their email replys are a joke, their HTML code is riddled with problems, they do so many things that irritate their customers, and all this could be addressed if they would channel some of their resources.

I agree with you that eBay has a bit of work to do everywhere in the system.  But everyone (buyers, sellers, power sellers, stockholders, insiders) has different priorities, different proposed solutions, and not everyone is going to be pleased with everything eBay does. We still cant get the address of a bidder or even winning bidder so if the guy has email lproblems we must resort to trying a reverse lookup phone directory to find it.  They might work on that.

Why do you need the address of a bidder if you first haven’t contacted him to clarify payment, shipping, etc?  The phone number (which is provided by eBay) is a much more efficient way of doing this rather than by mail. If he has already sent paypal, his address will most likely be with his Paypal payment notification. The online reverse phone directories are notoriously known for being out of date, why would you trust them?  Besides, he may want the item shipped to a different address. But this IP address thing could have some real problems. There have been times when a visitor placed bids on an item, sometimes MY items, using my computer as I watched. Certainly legal but it might not look so to a half-baked survey by ebays less-than-expert techs.

You are playing with fire here if you are doing this to your items. It would be very hard to convince eBay that the bidder on your computer, bidding on your item is not acting as your agent to push the bid.  It’s not worth it. Once, I even placed a bid for a guy, with his full consent, and as a favor. (He didnt win).

Again, not smart.  Either on your part or on his (giving up his ID and password.) I also question what happens when a guy willingly buys back his own item, pays the comissiong and everything. You know, his wife is pissed he sold a wedding present, whatever. Yes, there are better ways to do it but not everyone understands that.

As you know, eBay considers this shilling.  No exceptions. (When I first started on eBay 2 years ago, the seller WAS allowed to place ONE bid on his own item if he wanted to buy it back or get his target price.  It was misused, or eBay was losing reserve fees <g, so it was discontinued.)  The appropriate response is to cancel the bids then end the auction. A disgruntled bidder who didn’t get the item might report this if they think the auction looks suspicious and the seller will be NARU’d.  eBay isn’t a court.  They look at the evidence and act.  I actually think they most generously give too many people the benefit of the doubt! Seems like power sellers will shill away unmolested anyway. Maybe there is no answer.

Yes, it even happens at real auctions like Sotheby’s.  The determined find their way if the rewards are high enough.   Many people are pushing for the use of credit cards to register any User ID, not just sellers.  So that any ID can be linked to a specific individual.  I can certainly see where this would help keep the sub 18’s inactive,  and be a helpful tool in the fight against shilling, etc.  But it _could_ will also hamper efforts to build eBay’s buyer base — which is what all the sellers are bitching about:"too many sellers", yada yada…I know the gripes are there about the bidders not following through, but many people not already on eBay are the types that are hesitant about providing personal information over the internet, may not have a cc, etc. I do think that the key to eBay’s continued success is to make the buyers feel safe and comfortable dealing with the sellers.  There are bad dogs everywhere and the generalized fingerpointing doesn’t help solve any problems.

Response:

"***Shill Bidding Prevention on eBay***" I wish they would check IP addresses (they might now). In fact, I wish they would post on the bid page the IP address from where the bid came from. It would help a lot (yes I know there are a lot of proxy servers but most still use good old dial-up)

Response:

"***Shill Bidding Prevention on eBay***" I wish they would check IP addresses (they might now). In fact, I wish they would post on the bid page the IP address from where the bid came from. It would help a lot (yes I know there are a lot of proxy servers but most still use good old dial-up)

I would even be happy if the auctions where a person has retracted a bid shows up in their bid history. Having just a raw number for retractions on the feedback page doesn’t do much good, IMHO… – David –

Response:

From eBay’s announcement board.  Any comments? ***Shill Bidding Prevention on eBay*** This is an update on eBay’s Shill Bidding Prevention efforts. Shill bidding is the deliberate placing of bids to artificially raise the price of an item. This is a violation of the eBay User Agreement, and could potentially be prosecuted as a criminal act. Shill bidding is wrong because it artificially raises the price of an item and encourages buyers to pay more than the true market price for the item. Since shill bidding involves using a separate User ID, a false impression that another bidder is interested in the item and willing to pay more for it is created. This is unfair and could even be illegal. We do not tolerate shill bidding and we enforce this policy stringently. In most cases, a member who is confirmed to have shill bid will be suspended for 30 days on the first offense. Subsequent violations will result in an indefinite suspension. We also cooperate fully with any law enforcement inquiry into shill bidding on eBay. eBay developed the industry’s first shill bidding detection tool in early 1999 as a way to analyze bidding patterns over multiple listings. Since then we have also implemented other sophisticated mechanisms. These tools analyze listings and registration data for patterns indicative of shill bidding and allow our Safe Harbor group to detect and act on violations. It is also used in the investigation of reports that are sent to the Safe Harbor by members. We have also revised Bid History and Bidder Search to allow members to understand bidding patterns more efficiently. This was accomplished by displaying and providing the ability to sort Bidder Search by the seller ID. We believe that this will help in the detection of questionable patterns. Changes under consideration include enhanced member verification and limits to the number of accounts per member. These will help to reduce anonymity on the site and related concerns like shill bidding. These significant, more impactful changes are carefully being planned to ensure maximum effectiveness with minimal community disruption. Finally, we will shortly begin randomly auditing member account activity and act on detected violations. Although shill bidding on eBay occurs in only a small fraction of listings, it is a very important issue as it creates barriers to success for members and eBay. We will continue to invest in systems and resources to address shill bidding and other issues that undermine trust and safety. http://pages.ebay.com/help/community/shillBidding.html Thank you, eBay

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