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tow vehicle advice wanted

Question:

I went out and measured my bus, a 4106.  It is 35′  long, the wheel base is 22.5 ‘ for a ratio of only 64.3%.

One vehicle that significantly exceeds that ratio is the Orion II, a small kneeling transit bus made in Canada.  It is FWD on air and has all wheels right out at the corners.  When considering the idea of converting one to MH use, I corresponded with people who had driven them and they all claimed it was the best-handling small coach they ever drove. But they also agreed it did not make really short turns! Will KD3XR

Response:

By contrast, most commercial motorhomes (at least in the "affordable" price class – whatever that means) are flat-sided, less stiffly sprung, built on the lightest chassis the maker could get away with, and loaded practically to the GVWR as delivered. Will KD3XR

Will, While that may well be a true statement I’m not sure it is a fair one. While at the Winnebago Grand National Rally a factory spokesman told us that they constantly nag Ford and Chevy to produce a heavier chassis and for the most part they are ignored.  Why?  He said MH chassis are such a small part of the overall business that they don’t have any clout.  I think the MH makers would love to have heavier chassis as we keep demanding more and more toys be added to them. Although I was not real impressed with the new Ford chassis the Chevy chassis has undergone a complete rebuild from the old P30 and looks very good. Roger

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<<Speaking of which, I saw a new Ford 4×4 550 pickup in the road briefly a couple of nights ago. We were side by side only about a block but it sure looked like it was sporting a factory pick up bed That would probably be the "Classic Traveler" package by FONTAINE Modification Company. I saw one recently at a trade show.  Took my breath away!!!  They make a beautiful bed for the 350,450 and 550 SuperDuty chassis trucks…and paint it and fluff up the interior. The company is in Louisville near the Ford plant… You request the package from your dealer and they send the truck there do get done up.  I kept the literature…their # is 800-366-8246. Hunter

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writes: Will now decides what is urban myth.

No, ya got that wrong. It’s SUBurban myth. 8-) Will KD3XR

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writes to challenge my comment that: By contrast, most commercial motorhomes (at least in the "affordable" price class – whatever that means) are flat-sided, less stiffly sprung, built on the lightest chassis the maker could get away with,  and loaded practically to the GVWR as delivered.

Sez Roger: Will, While that may well be a true statement I’m not sure it is a fair one. While at the Winnebago Grand National Rally a factory spokesman told us that they constantly nag Ford and Chevy to produce a heavier chassis and for the most part they are ignored.  Why?  He said MH chassis are such a small part of the overall business that they don’t have any clout.

Since it’s just an opinion I don’t have to prove it’s right or wrong. But nagging is not the same as refusing to buy chassis that are not right for the job. Though I sympathize with Winnebago & others that they can’t get GM/Ford/MoPaR) to build the chassis they want, it is my POV that they do not deserve too much pity for buying what is cheap (there ARE some heavy duty chassis available!) and then piling on too much weight, frame extensions, air bags and tag axles.  They are NOT compelled to buy Ford chassis–  and in fact Winnebago (since you mentioned them) has actually tried to design it’s own chassis.  If I may say so the earlier versions of their experiment demonstrate the same overload mentality –  it is widely known as the LeSharo. The famed GMC motorhome had a similar problem: basically a car chassis but "rated" for 10,500 or 12,500 GVW.  Having owned one I can say with authority that the chassis of this otherwise superbly designed coach (arguably the best in its size ever mass produced)  was junk.  And don’t get me started or I will recount the ways! Some RV manufacturers may well be *unwilling* to buy or build the right chassis for realistic load capacity – but they are not unable to do the right thing.  I tell my kids that if they don’t *want* to work, one excuse is as good as another.  Coachmakers that don’t build to reasonable design standards get the same sympathy from me: none. Will KD3XR

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 I can not recall ever seeing a GM rating for any Suburban higher then 7000 lbs. Also the Ford E-series van is available with the V-10, which is a -very- impressive engine.   As I recall the rating on the 4×4 Suburban is -lower- then the 4×2.

My 1999 K2500 Suburban (3/4 ton 4×4) with the 7.4L engine and an axle ratio of 4.10:1 is rated at 10,000 lbs towing capacity, the same as the C2500 (4×2).  It is rated at 290 HP and 410 lbs ft torque.  These data are easily verifiable at any Chevrolet/GMC dealer.  I have no idea what the engine ratings are on the Ford.

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The comments about the converted busses has a lot of merit.  Not really sure that the areodynamic design or low center of gravity have a lot to do with it tho.. . . . <tale about old school bus snipped This big, high off the ground box was super stable in the wind . . .

The low center of gravity isnot as crucial when speaking of the effects of crosswinds, though of great importance in cornering. The things that made the bus relatively more stable were (in ascending order of importance) the rounded roof, the stiff suspension under very little stress, and sheer dead weight. In my opinion. By contrast, most commercial motorhomes (at least in the "affordable" price class – whatever that means) are flat-sided, less stiffly sprung, built on the lightest chassis the maker could get away with, and loaded practically to the GVWR as delivered. The combined effect of these differences (call them subtle if you like) can well account for the different response to a gust.  Not to mention the fact that the folks you were following may well have been hit by a nastier gust than you were. Will KD3XR

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< < The comments about the converted busses has a lot of merit.  Not < really sure that the areodynamic design or low center of gravity have < a lot to do with it tho.. . . . <tale about old school bus snipped < This big, high off the ground box was super stable in the wind . . . < < The low center of gravity isnot as crucial when speaking of the < effects of crosswinds, though of great importance in cornering. The < things that made the bus relatively more stable were (in ascending < order of importance) the rounded roof, the stiff suspension under very < little stress, and sheer dead weight. < < In my opinion. < Also most buses have their wheels closer to the corners of the box. Some of the current motor homes(Class C’s in particular) have a lot of rear over hang. There have been postings about length to wheelbase ratio down in the mid .50’s. I think most buses must be at least .85 — Don Dickson Remove first "x" from xcx666 when replying by e-mail.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – < < The comments about the converted busses has a lot of merit.  Not < really sure that the areodynamic design or low center of gravity have < a lot to do with it tho.. . . . <tale about old school bus snipped < This big, high off the ground box was super stable in the wind . . . < < The low center of gravity isnot as crucial when speaking of the < effects of crosswinds, though of great importance in cornering. The < things that made the bus relatively more stable were (in ascending < order of importance) the rounded roof, the stiff suspension under very < little stress, and sheer dead weight. < < In my opinion. < Also most buses have their wheels closer to the corners of the box. Some of the current motor homes(Class C’s in particular) have a lot of rear over hang. There have been postings about length to wheelbase ratio down in the mid .50’s. I think most buses must be at least .85

Well, Don, You got me to thinking and I went out and measured my bus, a 4106.  It is 35′  long, the wheel base is 22.5 ‘ for a ratio of only 64.3%.  A forty footer should be a bit better since there is an additional five feet between the wheels which gives a ratio of 68.75%.  Amazing isn’t it.  However the front wheels sit behind the driver which is about 5′ and the rear wheels have to sit in enough for the engine and drive train to fit. George.

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The comments about the converted busses has a lot of merit.  Not really sure that the areodynamic design or low center of gravity have a lot to do with it tho.

<SNIPPED parts about a converted but and a Class C wind was from the left.  After following this vehicle for several miles the wind caught it just right and blew it over onto its right side. During this whole affair the old bus was leaking air like a sieve and sounded like you were in a out of tune organ but not being pushed around to any degree at all.

There’s the problem Mike, That old bus was like trying to close a screen door against a hurricane.  There wasn’t much "sail effect" because of all the holes.  <g Greg

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 As a long time Airstream owner and ex-Suburban owner I would have to agree with Will. The Suburban is a great people mover but is not the best towing platform. My 97 Cummings extended cab is much more stable in the wind and with passing trucks than the Burb.  As to Airstreamers not being sheep I make no comment                     Walkott.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Unless you’re towing a 5th-wheel, I suggest that the best tow vehicle in the US is a 3/4-ton Suburban with a 7.4L gas engine with 4.10:1 axle ratio. The popularity of a myth does not transform it to truth. The Suburban – though a good tow vehicle in many respects, is NOT "the best" for many towing tasks.  Compared to some vans (with equal or longer wheelbase and shorter overhang) it is a poor second choice. The "best" tow vehicle is one that safely and competently tows YOUR choice of a rig and meets your other needs/wants as well. Will KD3XR

Will, is there no subject in which you’re not an expert?  I expressed an opinion and you, as usual, post information to the contrary to debunk any advice, opinion, theory , etc others  may have. For your information, I’m not a novice at TT towing (having towed 22′-36′ TT’s since about 1960).  I’ve towed with 3/4 ton GM pickups, 3/4 and 1 ton Chevrolet vans, and 1/2 and 3/4 ton Suburbans.  The 3/4 ton Subs are the heaviest, have the most rigid frame (the vans have no frame, per se; they are unitized body construction), have the widest track, largest brakes, highest torque capable auto transmissions, best cooling systems of engine oil and trans fluid, and have less side area than the vans.  The wheel base and rear overhang are nearly identical with the vans.  Engine HP and torque with the 7.4L (at 290 and 410, respectively) are up there with the best in their class.  Can several hundred thousand Airstream owners be wrong?  Their tow vehicle of choice is unmistakedly the Suburban, and I don’t think you could call them sheep. Obviously, everyone should make their choices based on their own requirements.

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As you, I also like the Suburban (3/4 ton) as a tow vehicle for conventional trailers.  Like any vehicle, the Suburban can be over matched with too large a trailer.  The largest trailer I pulled with mine was a 35 footer, and it was definitely too much trailer for the truck.  Luckily, I only had to transport it for a few (40) miles. I favor the Suburban for trailers up to 27 or so feet with weights within the GVW rating of the unit.  For anything larger, I would not suggest a van or Suburban, but rather a truck such as the F-350 Ford in its heaviest configuration or larger.  I also suggest the Poewr Stroke Diesel in the Heavy Duty package. Where appliable, however, I think the Suburban is still the best vehicle. Each to their own. I speak from some experience with the Suburban as well as other types of tow units.  I towed with one for fourteen years.  The smallest trailer I towed was a Shasta 21 ft. , the largest towed on a regular basis over all types of terrain was a 25 ft. Shasta conventional.  The unit had a new engine and a trans overhaul at 131,000 miles and had nearly 250,000 miles on it when I traded it in on a new PowerStroke.  The one engine replacement was the only major work I ever had to do on the drive train.  Our log indicates a total of about 27,000 miles of that mileage was towing an RV Trailer.  This does not include the several thousand miles towing boats and utility trailers with fairly heavy loads. Richard Jackson – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Unless you’re towing a 5th-wheel, I suggest that the best tow vehicle in the US is a 3/4-ton Suburban with a 7.4L gas engine with 4.10:1 axle ratio. The popularity of a myth does not transform it to truth. The Suburban – though a good tow vehicle in many respects, is NOT "the best" for many towing tasks.  Compared to some vans (with equal or longer wheelbase and shorter overhang) it is a poor second choice. The "best" tow vehicle is one that safely and competently tows YOUR choice of a rig and meets your other needs/wants as well. Will KD3XR Will, is there no subject in which you’re not an expert?  I expressed an opinion and you, as usual, post information to the contrary to debunk any advice, opinion, theory , etc others  may have. For your information, I’m not a novice at TT towing (having towed 22′-36′ TT’s since about 1960).  I’ve towed with 3/4 ton GM pickups, 3/4 and 1 ton Chevrolet vans, and 1/2 and 3/4 ton Suburbans.     The 3/4 ton Subs are the heaviest, have the most rigid frame (the vans have no frame, per se; they are unitized body construction), have the widest track, largest brakes, highest torque capable auto transmissions, best cooling systems of engine oil and trans fluid, and have less side area than the vans.  The wheel base and rear overhang are nearly identical with the vans.  Engine HP and torque with the 7.4L (at 290 and 410, respectively) are up there with the best in their class.     Can several hundred thousand Airstream owners be wrong?  Their tow vehicle of choice is unmistakedly the Suburban, and I don’t think you could call them sheep. Obviously, everyone should make their choices based on their own requirements.

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George, Will et al The comments about the converted busses has a lot of merit.  Not really sure that the areodynamic design or low center of gravity have a lot to do with it tho. In 1968 I purchased a 1962 Ford school bus at auction.  Did a rough comversion with running water, gas apartment style range and a bathroom. Built in some basic cots and a table and we took it Elk hunting.  The most favorable comment this old rig got was from one oldtimer that said "Well, it’s better than a tent for settin up". This big, high off the ground box was super stable in the wind and around trucks.  Springs were very stiff and it was like riding in a lumber wagon. One fall we were coming up Hwy 101 just north of Tillamook Oregon when the wind was coming in off the ocean like you would not believe.  We were following a motor home, believe it was a class C, and on every curve where this vehicle was exposed broadside to the gale that rig would lean way over.  This was really noticeable on left turns as the wind was from the left.  After following this vehicle for several miles the wind caught it just right and blew it over onto its right side. I’ll never forget the sight of the couch and other stuff shooting out of the top of that coach as it hit the ground.  Fortunatly the couple in the cab were only badly shaken up and had a few bumps and bruises. During this whole affair the old bus was leaking air like a sieve and sounded like you were in a out of tune organ but not being pushed around to any degree at all. The motor home had small duels on the rear and was, from the way it was acting, sprung for a soft ride.  The bus had 9.00 X 20’s on it, duels in the rear, and I think they were 10 plys. I wonder if the really heavy springs and super stought tires may not have been what really made that old crate so stable? Also the weight of that bus was way up there.  Dont remember the scale weight of it after all these years but I do know we took out the 262 CI six and put in a 390 just to be able to stay up with traffic on most roads. Any thoughts on this? Mike

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I am going to upgrade from my F-150 to better pull my FW.  I am looking at Dodge 2500 and Ford F-250 SD.  I have to use this vehicle for commuting to work as well as towing on vacations, etc.  I would like to get the best MPG possible with a heavy duty truck, thus the following questions: 1.  Which would give better gas mileage:        -bigger engine w/higher axle ratio?      -smaller engine w/lower axle ratio? 2.  Gas vs. diesel? 3.  Any opinions re:  Ford vs. Dodge? Thanks. Joe

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Joe, The responses you get on this will be like a popularity contest. Get the brochures out and check the specs.  Only you know what you need, how many miles you drive, on what roads, with what load, etc. My VOTE is for the F-250 SD Super Cab long bed with the 7.3 l PSD, 4R100 (E4OD), and 3.73 axle.  If your F-150 could come close to towing your fiver the SD will not even notice it is there. Good luck sorting through all the other votes. Butch Davis-

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1.  Which would give better gas mileage:       -bigger engine w/higher axle ratio?     -smaller engine w/lower axle ratio?

  Check the EPA ratings 2.  Gas vs. diesel?

  Tough to tell. The diesel will pay for itself if you drive a lot of miles, otherwise…. For the way and amount I drive I would look at the larger Gas engines, including the V-10’s (I think I would actually get a V-10, vice a big block V-8) 3.  Any opinions re:  Ford vs. Dodge?

 Both are actually good — RV and Camping FAQ <http://kendaco.telebyte.net/rlindber/rv/ If Windows is the answer, I really want to know what the question is.

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Unless you’re towing a 5th-wheel, I suggest that the best tow vehicle in the US is a 3/4-ton Suburban with a 7.4L gas engine with 4.10:1 axle ratio.  The choice between 2-wheel or 4-wheel drive is yours.

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Unless you’re towing a 5th-wheel, I suggest that the best tow vehicle in the US is a 3/4-ton Suburban with a 7.4L gas engine with 4.10:1 axle ratio.

The popularity of a myth does not transform it to truth. The Suburban – though a good tow vehicle in many respects, is NOT "the best" for many towing tasks.  Compared to some vans (with equal or longer wheelbase and shorter overhang) it is a poor second choice. The "best" tow vehicle is one that safely and competently tows YOUR choice of a rig and meets your other needs/wants as well. Will KD3XR

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A question if I may – I’ve read about using vans for towing tt’s here and this would be a good setup for me – however, I envision a gusty crosswind as I’m going down the highway, van ‘rocking’ one way and trailer ‘rocking’ the other (probably for a very short time – then disaster ;< ).  Are the 3/4 and 1 ton vans more stable than the small one’s I’ve driven?  Am I missing out on a great setup? thanks in advance, Bob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Unless you’re towing a 5th-wheel, I suggest that the best tow vehicle in the US is a 3/4-ton Suburban with a 7.4L gas engine with 4.10:1 axle ratio. The popularity of a myth does not transform it to truth. The Suburban – though a good tow vehicle in many respects, is NOT "the best" for many towing tasks.  Compared to some vans (with equal or longer wheelbase and shorter overhang) it is a poor second choice. The "best" tow vehicle is one that safely and competently tows YOUR choice of a rig and meets your other needs/wants as well. Will KD3XR

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Remember wheelbase and overhang. Basically, the longer the wheelbase and the shorter the overhang the more stable the platform for towing.  Avoid big, fat tires, too. Butch Davis-

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Bob Something to watch out for if purchasing a van for towing purposes. There are some vans referred to as super vans or extended vans (not sure of correct terminology) that defeat the normally short overhang advantage. One such van, a Ford Super Van, reviewed in the Sept 1997 Trailer Life magazine has a 74 in. overhang. This is approximately 14 in longer than the typical pickup or Suburban. Otherwise I agree that vans do typically have the advantage of a shorter rear overhang, allowing for improved towing stability. Bob

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writes: A question if I may – I’ve read about using vans for towing tt’s here and this would be a good setup for me – however, I envision a gusty crosswind as I’m going down the highway, van ‘rocking’ one way and trailer ‘rocking’ the other (probably for a very short time – then disaster ;< ).  Are the 3/4 and 1 ton vans more stable than the small one’s I’ve driven?  Am I missing out on a great setup?

Regardless of GVWR, a large side area on a tall vehicle acts as a sail and so gusty winds will push you around.  But it is a relative thing. The Suburban is ALSO a large, tall vehicle subject to this phenomena. But as you’d expect, a heavier truck with the same area but stiffer suspension is less susceptible, so the problem is minimized.  An adequately heavy, stable tow vehicle with a short overhang (or ideally, a Pullrite or Hensley hitch) will not be dangerously unstable in moderate crosswinds. Having said that I’m sure George Lowry would admit that even his converted bus has SOME sensitivity to heavy gusts, so it is prudent to be prepared and avoid those situations when possible. Will KD3XR

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – writes: A question if I may – I’ve read about using vans for towing tt’s here and this would be a good setup for me – however, I envision a gusty crosswind as I’m going down the highway, van ‘rocking’ one way and trailer ‘rocking’ the other (probably for a very short time – then disaster ;< ).  Are the 3/4 and 1 ton vans more stable than the small one’s I’ve driven?  Am I missing out on a great setup? Regardless of GVWR, a large side area on a tall vehicle acts as a sail and so gusty winds will push you around.  But it is a relative thing. The Suburban is ALSO a large, tall vehicle subject to this phenomena. But as you’d expect, a heavier truck with the same area but stiffer suspension is less susceptible, so the problem is minimized.  An adequately heavy, stable tow vehicle with a short overhang (or ideally, a Pullrite or Hensley hitch) will not be dangerously unstable in moderate crosswinds. Having said that I’m sure George Lowry would admit that even his converted bus has SOME sensitivity to heavy gusts, so it is prudent to be prepared and avoid those situations when possible. Will KD3XR

I was staying out of this but since you mentioned my name…. Yes, anything that moves and some that don’t normally move, are going to be sensitive to wind gusts. It is that some are more sensitive than others.  In the fifties when we were towing a trailer without all the fancy Anti sway devices etc, and on the regular highways, not the superslabs of today, every time you passed a truck in either direction, you could count on a reaction from the rig.  The only cure for it in those days was to apply trailer brakes and add throttle to "straighten it out".  It worked great until the brakes failed on one trip, but that is another story. The flat sided light MHs that we have had were susceptible to wind gusts and caused many a white knuckled incident. We did find that radial tires were much better than bias ply for keeping it on the road. The Converted Coach with its more aerodynamic design and lower center of gravity plus weight almost make it a pleasure to drive in gusty cross winds. At least it does remove the white knuckles. George

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Unless you’re towing a 5th-wheel, I suggest that the best tow vehicle in the US is a 3/4-ton Suburban with a 7.4L gas engine with 4.10:1 axle ratio. The popularity of a myth does not transform it to truth. The Suburban – though a good tow vehicle in many respects, is NOT "the best" for many towing tasks.  Compared to some vans (with equal or longer wheelbase and shorter overhang) it is a poor second choice.

  Have to agree with WIll here, a simple look at the GM tow ratings for a Suburban vis a heavy Van shows that the Van’s have a max rating similar to that of  the similar model like truck (like the Ford F350 and E350). While I can not recall ever seeing a GM rating for any Suburban higher then 7000 lbs. Also the Ford E-series van is available with the V-10, which is a -very- impressive engine.   As I recall the rating on the 4×4 Suburban is -lower- then the 4×2.   Also Vans tend to be available on the same frame as the long wheel-base "1 TON" (ie crew-cab with 8 foot bed). The "best" tow vehicle is one that safely and competently tows YOUR choice of a rig and meets your other needs/wants as well.

  Abso fragly lootly, for what we do, a truck is better, we need the bed. If we had kids, well a Van would probably be better.   My poor demented Brother-In-Law decided he could pull his 32 foot trailer with his ‘big’ Suburban.  After many drive-train troubles (trany and engine) He got a medium GM flat bed to pull it, and had the wife and kids follow in the ol’ Suburban — RV and Camping FAQ <http://kendaco.telebyte.net/rlindber/rv/ If Windows is the answer, I really want to know what the question is.

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