Act Acting » Career Acting » Dear friends [and Sugar Ray fans! ;-)], an absolute must-read

Dear friends [and Sugar Ray fans! ;-)], an absolute must-read

Question:

Oh, they’re probably more so in most cases, likely because you want to hope more for them. ;-) That *is* a good point, though. Arguably I loved the article in large part because I hated the band, whereas if something came out about a band I liked that said similar, I’d feel more annoyed. However, I probably wouldn’t be all *that* surprised. I’ve long since learned to separate appreciation for a musician’s work from appreciation of the musician him or herself. When both estimation of their music and their personal qualities dovetail, based on personal experience, then it’s a fine thing — I’m thinking of both Low and Windy and Carl here especially, who are fine people and great musicians both. When a musician’s a jerk, oh well — if the music’s great, there’s that, if it isn’t, then double eurgh. And thus my feelings about Sugar Ray, really. I can think of much better things to complain about, like the Limp Bizkit asshole inciting the kids at Woodstock to tear shit down and practically kill each other.

He’s another one to be casually peeved with, no doubt. But the candidates surely are plentiful, and if Sugar Ray had in fact performed at Woodstock as they were scheduled to, who knows what he would have said? ;-) np:Nearly God, "I Sing For You" (is there a new Tricky album coming out?

As another poster said, yup — middle of August. Here’s hoping this one sticks in the mind better than the last, which had some points, but still… Ned ned wondering what my coworker is up to now at kuci.org

Response:

Steve Albini wrote a good piece sometime ago about bands and majors vs indies, I’m afraid I’ll have to disagree with this. While I have no great love for major labels, I also have no great love for indie labels. Albini’s article was simplistic and paranoid.

The best thing ever written about Steve Albini comes from David Lowery, in the liner notes to Camper Van Beethoven’s -Vampire Can Mating Oven-: "Originally this song was entitled "Why don’t you challenge the boundaries of rock music by playing harsh furious dissonant guitar noise music with lyrics exclusively about death and sex and pretend like you are making some kind of original statement about the relation between the two and therefore expressing the pain and confusion of modern society, and then become a rock critic and write about your own band under a different name but not before you move to New York or LA or Chicago or some sufficiently urban area and live in a bad part of town while still receiving checks from your parents who were probably liberals and didn’t let you watch enough violence on TV and so you never got it out of your system, and then go to law school like everybody else."" np:Tricky, "She Makes Me Wanna Die" — …extensive liner notes and make-believe alien languages… Rev. Jack Godsey. http://members.tripod.com/spill/index.html Spiritual counsel and webmaster for Pegasi 51. http://members.tripod.com/pegasi51/index.html Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

with this comment: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – that I think most of us can rest easy knowing that we aren’t anything like El Asshole Grande who sings for said band — there’s lots to laugh at. Even tragedy can provoke the absurd, surely. Anyone happen to see the Politically Incorrect with said Asshole Grande as a guest? Nothing in that article, or anywhere else I’ve seen, convinces me that the Sugar Ray dude is any more of an asshole than, say, Mark E. Smith, the members of Underworld, or Lou Barlow (or J. Mascis, depending on who you listen to). Why is everyone so hell-bent on dissing this band?

Because many of us think they suck. It’s that simple. The difference between the Sugar Ray fool and the others you mention is that the others have talent. They may be assholes, and I won’t argue that they aren’t, but at least they make good music. And in some cases, they’re funny assholes. –ML COMPTON– Playing while I type: LAMB "Fear Of Fours"

Response:

upon the world with this comment: np:Nearly God, "I Sing For You" (is there a new Tricky album coming out? As another poster said, yup — middle of August. Here’s hoping this one sticks in the mind better than the last, which had some points, but still…

The new album is wonderful. Its his most commercial album to date and it’s much more of a hip-hop afair than in the past. It’s also very short. But it’s a best of the year contender. –ML COMPTON– Playing while I type: LAMB "Fear Of Fours"

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There are certainly other well-written tales of rock and roll scumdom and the true shit of the entertainment cycle out there, but this, I venture to you, is one of the best I’ve ever *EVER* read.

Finally got round to reading it myself. I thought these 90s alterna-types didn’t act like that. I wonder if these guys ever made fun of Kiss or Guns’N'Roses… and I wonder if the singer realizes he’s every bit the asshole Axl ever was, minus the entertainment factor… D * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

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Oh, surely Mark E. Smith, Klaus Dinger, [insert a number of my musical heroes here] are worse assholes than Mr. McGrath. But again, I thought the article was meant more as an exercise of reminding the "common folk" how ridiculous/decadent/sad/pathetic/comical/lame even a small slab of life in the music industry as a touring band member can be these days. And the article, whether naive or disingenuous or not, was extremely entertaining. I didn’t see it as much as a character assassination of Sugar Ray (while it certainly was to some degree) as it was a "there are millions of stories and bands just like this across the nation.." type of testimonial. Why is everyone so hell-bent on dissing this band? They’re not really all THAT terrible to me. As harmless as the Beach Boys’ more harmless material. I can think of much better things to complain about, like the Limp Bizkit asshole inciting the kids at Woodstock to tear shit down and practically kill each other.

I never had much of a problem with Sugar Ray either. Harmless and merely a blip on the screen at most. Reading that article though just reminded me that they are pretty dumb and naive. And frankly, it *really* describes the mentality of most Newport Beach/Balboa peninsula residents very clearly. (Having walked around that area the past few weekends, as it is a very neat place to beach-walk.) That whole community is one big semen-stained beer commercial. Frankly, I’d much rather have a beer with the Sugar Ray dude than, say, Tori Amos (unless I had any chance of putting masking tape over her mouth and fucking her).

Um, uh… ok… if you say so.

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np:Nearly God, "I Sing For You" (is there a new Tricky album coming out? I heard what I’m pretty sure was an amazing new Tricky song, with Martina singing most or all of the words, in the record store the other day)

Tricky is releasing a new album, "Juxtapose", on the 16. August – that is over here in Europe anyway. I don’t think Martina sings on the new album, ‘cos he used another woman (cannot remember the name) to sing with him at the concert in Kongsberg (in Norway) some weeks ago – and also I think a newspaper said he no longer worked with Martina. Beside that it was a pretty good concert, the new songs seemed promising, they sounded more like the stuff from the 2. album, which I don’t mind since I did find the 3. album too chaotic. Marcus

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comment: Steve Albini wrote a good piece sometime ago about bands and majors vs indies,

I’m afraid I’ll have to disagree with this. While I have no great love for major labels, I also have no great love for indie labels. Albini’s article was simplistic and paranoid. I would urge all bands to ignore what it says. Or at the very least, take what it says with caution. –ML COMPTON– Playing while I type: "UNKNOWNWORKS" Various unsigned artists on Astralwerks

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that I think most of us can rest easy knowing that we aren’t anything like El Asshole Grande who sings for said band — there’s lots to laugh at. Even tragedy can provoke the absurd, surely. Anyone happen to see the Politically Incorrect with said Asshole Grande as a guest?

Nothing in that article, or anywhere else I’ve seen, convinces me that the Sugar Ray dude is any more of an asshole than, say, Mark E. Smith, the members of Underworld, or Lou Barlow (or J. Mascis, depending on who you listen to). Why is everyone so hell-bent on dissing this band? They’re not really all THAT terrible to me. As harmless as the Beach Boys’ more harmless material. I can think of much better things to complain about, like the Limp Bizkit asshole inciting the kids at Woodstock to tear shit down and practically kill each other. Frankly, I’d much rather have a beer with the Sugar Ray dude than, say, Tori Amos (unless I had any chance of putting masking tape over her mouth and fucking her). np:Nearly God, "I Sing For You" (is there a new Tricky album coming out? I heard what I’m pretty sure was an amazing new Tricky song, with Martina singing most or all of the words, in the record store the other day) — …extensive liner notes and make-believe alien languages… Rev. Jack Godsey. http://members.tripod.com/spill/index.html Spiritual counsel and webmaster for Pegasi 51. http://members.tripod.com/pegasi51/index.html Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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Chortling? This made me depressed. Some parts of it *are* very depressing, especially the encounter with the hooker in SF. But in terms of black humor overall — and the fact that I think most of us can rest easy knowing that we aren’t anything like El Asshole Grande who sings for said band — there’s lots to laugh at. Even tragedy can provoke the absurd, surely.

Anyone happen to see the Politically Incorrect with said Asshole Grande as a guest? Just as annoying and hilarious as you’d imagine, and very consistant with everything that was written in the article. He didn’t open his mouth unless it was self-serving in some way, and often gratingly so. I do hope that poor girl gave him something for his trouble. key Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : : Chortling? This made me depressed. : Some parts of it *are* very depressing, especially the encounter with : the hooker in SF. But in terms of black humor overall — and the fact : that I think most of us can rest easy knowing that we aren’t anything : like El Asshole Grande who sings for said band — there’s lots to : laugh at. Even tragedy can provoke the absurd, surely. Actually it spurred some thoughts and questions about what some of the financial differences are between major-label bands and indie bands – i.e., how much they can expect to earn, etc. They were really sort of general though and I’m not sure where to look for more information.

Well, not really sure about your question. Steve Albini wrote a good piece sometime ago about bands and majors vs indies, but I don’t have the url handy. On a slightly related note, there’s the story of the Meat Puppets–a long lasting indie band that goes major, scores a hit, gets oodles of cash at their disposal, goes on tour with STP, and ends up imploding under a cloud of classic rock cliches and drug addiction. Far as I know, Cris Kirkwood is still MIA (or did he actually die?), consigned to living death status by his own brother either way. Another example of rock ‘n’ roll debauchery that hardly strikes me as surprising, but still makes me feel sad and no less amazed by the whole sordid mess. That story invokes real sympathy though, where the above just substantiates all of my previous assumptions. Those Sugar Ray guys are assholes… key np: Nurse With Wound "The Penis Fruit Loop"…ummm, tastey. Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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upon the world with this comment: There are certainly other well-written tales of rock and roll scumdom and the true shit of the entertainment cycle out there, but this, I venture to you, is one of the best I’ve ever *EVER* read. Just read and enjoy — the writer has known the bandmembers to an extent for years and, well, you’ll see. Massive entertainment, and no doubt to those like ML who have worked in the business, all too familiar and stupid as well:

Yeah. I didn’t find this all that funny as I’ve experienced things like it many times before. It’s all just so damn pathetic and typical. Let me try to answer this here as well: Actually it spurred some thoughts and questions about what some of the financial differences are between major-label bands and indie bands – i.e., how much they can expect to earn, etc.

If Sugar Ray are flying to gigs and getting a $90 a day perdium, then they’re making pretty good money. The fact of the matter was that this keyboard player was getting ripped off playing for the band for $400 a week. I made $500 a week as an indie tour manager almost a decade ago and I was working for cheap! As for perduims, an indie band is lucky to make $20 a day on perdiums. At the height of TWR’s popularity in Europe, we still managed only $15 a day. (The most I ever heard was $400 a day from a guitarist who toured with Michael Jackson. I can’t even imagine that.) Most indie bands are also touring the country with everyone, their luggage and the equipment shoved into a large van and either sleeping on people floors or trying to sneak people into a Motel 6 room. This isn’t every band, of course. Some indie bands actually make enough money to tour somewhat comfortably, but nothing like what was described in this article. –ML COMPTON– Playing while I type: U-ZIQ "Royal Astronomy"

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These are authority figures in that world. All potential employers. Or even saying they’re not, let’s say instead he takes swipes at virtually everybody he does not regard as a peer.

Not every famous, relative or not, person in the article is thus depicted as such. I do not see such total absolutism. But he did want the cheap and minor publicity clearly.

Frankly, the whole thing just strikes me as funny. Hardly a masterplan. Don’t lose focus on the basic issue that he (and we) should again not be surprized.

If nobody is to be surprised by anything, why even write the story in the first place? Obviously it was published in a general interest journal, natch. But you seem to be arguing that because nobody should be surprised who knows, there’s no point for the existence of the story to begin with. That seems a strange assumption. As I said, who knows why?

Quite. This answer is in the context of saying it was wrong to delete the patches and such as well as what I would do. I never once stated he was a hard-bitten pro or even implied it anywhere.

I dunno — you seemed to be talking about ‘going from gig to gig’ and all that. Exactly what am I supposed to think as a result? I didn’t say it was necessarily worth it, and I also tend to agree with the guy it is not worth it – that’s why I don’t do it, either.

Fair enough. I said "wants" the publicity. I didn’t say he was achieving it.

And I’m saying I don’t get the feeling he was doing this as a means to a further end. Since you are a DJ, I am now utterly shocked and at loss as to your own response to all of this (unless you’ve been doing it less than a year).

Ten years, actually. And still going strong. Care to make any other assumptions? I knew skullduggery was afoot, but even I can be taken aback still by how much skullduggery there is in the industry. I’m so sorry I wasn’t wearing my ‘I am a total cynic through and through’ badge the other day. Talk about professions requiring personal compromise! Oh, I guess you work at the only station in the country where the jocks program themselves and remains unthreatened by consultants, internal politics, and corporate mergers.

One of many, thanks. It’s called college radio. I’ve been happily pursuing various shows ever since 1989, and have found the experience to be excellent. I do indeed program myself, and while every organization has internal politics, consultants are unknown here and corporate mergers do not apply. I am hardly unaware of the havoc that has been wreaked on commercial radio stations everywhere. Instead, it has in fact stiffened my resolve to never get involved with them — I’ve been told more than once that I would be an excellent DJ at a commercial station. I am flattered on the level of on-air professionalism, but I refuse to get involved in a station where I would have no control over my playlists and would dance to market-research strings. As that would be just about all of the commercial ones these days — and increasingly many of the public ones as well — that would rather take care of that. Ned ned now off to do his radio show, oddly enough, at kuci.org

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Quick responses below, and I’m done on this thread as this deserves no more attention in the newsgroup from my end: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, I’m not sure it’s worth a lot of time but as you seem to have questions of me: Indeed so. Actually, you’ve raised some more while answering others, so let’s focus on those new ones. – he takes swipes at virtually every authority figure he encounters, one could say probably gratuitously – Courtney Love, Billy Idol, the manager he encounters, the leader of Cake, etc. *Authority* figures? Aside from the manager, these are authority figures? What type of world is this you describe, frankly? I don’t buy this categorization. Entertainers, yes. But how in the world could you describe any of them as authority figures? They’re not the police, the armed forces, anything to do with civil or religious leadership.

These are authority figures in that world. All potential employers. Or even saying they’re not, let’s say instead he takes swipes at virtually everybody he does not regard as a peer. he KNEW he was violating some unspoken rule (look how he expresses "sneaking" it and how he’s glad nobody saw the videotape); why should he be surprized?; I don’t immediately recall him being surprised per se — the rhetoric indicates he was more doing it as a laugh in the first place. I rather doubt he was honestly expecting major labels to beat down his door the following day asking for info and for the world media market to suddenly ignore Sugar Ray entirely.

If you don’t think he was surprized then the whole incident comes back on him, he asked for it. That’s my point. As far as his intention, of course I don’t believe he thought anything you said would happen. But he did want the cheap and minor publicity clearly. why should he expect the band should confront him as that is WHY they have managers; Oh, so all problems should always be handled by middlemen? Logically, if I hired a student worker for where I work and he did something I saw as a problem, instead of telling him directly I should ask my own supervisor, say, to talk to him. I don’t regard that as being particularly effective or thoughtful an approach — I *do* regard it as an evasion of responsibility.

I didn’t say it was right. Just said it’s a long-standing reality, and not merely in the entertainment field. Don’t lose focus on the basic issue that he (and we) should again not be surprized. And by this point in the narrative he already held the band (or certainly the leader thereof) in contempt. – as far as why he would risk his name in the industry – well maybe he already ruined it or maybe more likely he hopes this will be a splash and he wants a job as a "rock journalist" or who knows why? It might just be me — and I’m not saying the guy is supposed to be a saint, but he *does* have a sense of humor and pathos both, which tends to help — but claims to the contrary you are relentless in assuming a strictly negative answer to a lot of his motivations. Did it ever occur to you that, *just maybe*, he was not fond of [and now is even less fonder] of the ‘industry’ in general, that he has no particular desire to be a journalist and has done it strictly as a one-off?

As I said, who knows why? but I would have to say that since, to me, the whole reason to go on this tour is to get the next big gig, why poison your name at all? Because he had had enough and didn’t care about ‘the next big gig.’ Because this was done as a first-time experience acting as a sideman and he was fed up with what eventually happened. Why are these possibilities so hard to consider? You keep assuming that the guy is a hard-bitten pro who moves from sideman gig to sideman gig, when the evidence for that is missing. If he’s thinking that his name has been poisoned to the likes of a band he now happily despises anyway, I can’t imagine him losing sleep over it.

This answer is in the context of saying it was wrong to delete the patches and such as well as what I would do. I never once stated he was a hard-bitten pro or even implied it anywhere. – what would I have done differently? kept my mouth shut, networked with the other bands, and looked for new opportunities – that’s business – Again, none of which seems like he was interested in doing at all. You see a career path where circumstances force you to lie or not tell the whole truth, which if you have some sense of personal standards is probably more than a little frustrating, yes? I get no sense that he was planning on doing this sort of side work forever and ever. You seem to think it could be worth the b.s.; I happily side with this guy in saying it *isn’t*.

Again, you asked me what I would do…and I did say "OR I would just get out", which you snipped and put below. I didn’t say it was necessarily worth it, and I also tend to agree with the guy it is not worth it – that’s why I don’t do it, either. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OR I would just get out, if it’s so horrible to him (which is fair) then why not get out? seems to me like he wants a lot of publicity, just like the tell-all book mentality A lot of publicity — listen to you. Is this story on the cover of _Rolling Stone_? The lead in _SonicNet_? A headline on the _National Inquirer_? Has the Sugar Ray experience been brought to a grinding halt because of it all, are questions being raised in Congress? Hardly. If he wanted to aim for publicity due to one of the more well known bands at the present time, he could have aimed a lot higher for potentially a lot more money. Frankly, this story sounds like a case where somebody at the _Weekly_ heard about it either in a conversation with the guy or from the friend of a friend and thought, ‘Hey, that would be a cool thing to run with our music issue — wanna write it up?’ And two to one within weeks whatever relatively minor stir might be raised will likely ebb to nothing.

I said "wants" the publicity. I didn’t say he was achieving it. – my wife used to be a DJ and previously worked at a famous rock station and this whole story was "hardly surprizing" to her That’s all very nice. But I do believe I was talking to you and not your wife about this — though as a DJ myself, I salute her choice of profession.

This was in response to your point that this seemed surprizing, so I just added the nearest voice in saying there were others who do not find it surprizing (and I just wanted to qualify the person’s background/relationship). Since you are a DJ, I am now utterly shocked and at loss as to your own response to all of this (unless you’ve been doing it less than a year). Talk about professions requiring personal compromise! Oh, I guess you work at the only station in the country where the jocks program themselves and remains unthreatened by consultants, internal politics, and corporate mergers. Don’t make the mistake of moving on. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – what exactly is the big surprize in any of this? Maybe there is no ‘big surprise’ — as I guessed, ML said he’s heard plenty like this before, and even brought forward some other examples in comparison. And perhaps what I’m increasingly surprised about is your take on this all. Ned ned thinking it’s rather late now, isn’t it, at kuci.org

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Well, I’m not sure it’s worth a lot of time but as you seem to have questions of me: – sure, by definition it’s "Monday morning quarterback" - what is it I’m supposed to be surprized about? sounds like he actually got paid, amazingly enough, whereas many people do not – including by famous people such as David Bowie and John Lydon (and he in turn by McLaren); diseased hookers are par for the course; a frontman whose a manipulative egomaniac with a drug problem; he didn’t get what he was promised; him being shunted to the side (and beyond) of the stage; I guess I’m just not sure; a lot of this is reminiscent of the Pistols tour through America which is a well known story – he takes swipes at virtually every authority figure he encounters, one could say probably gratuitously – Courtney Love, Billy Idol, the manager he encounters, the leader of Cake, etc. – now I’m not saying these people aren’t what he says but by the same token he seems absolutely eager; also re this, as far as this being his side of the story, I find it surprizing the manager just "backs away" when the writer himself points out his physical superiority – sounds like he was threatening the guy in some manner – the sticker episode; okay let’s face it, he’s working for Sugar Ray and it is very clear he was sneaking the label into the situation; now I totally agree that he should have been allowed to do it, but he KNEW he was violating some unspoken rule (look how he expresses "sneaking" it and how he’s glad nobody saw the videotape); why should he be surprized?; why should he expect the band should confront him as that is WHY they have managers; besides it may not even in that situation be the band anyway, although I think it must be since they seem control-oriented – as far as why he would risk his name in the industry – well maybe he already ruined it or maybe more likely he hopes this will be a splash and he wants a job as a "rock journalist" or who knows why? – okay, bottom line I was being nice saying he’s naive or innocent, but trying to give him the benefit of the doubt – re having all the answers, of course I don’t, but, yes, I can say with certainty that I wouldn’t sabotage my employer rather than just getting out; now I might walk out right before the show, even, which is a sort of sabotage, but I would have to say that since, to me, the whole reason to go on this tour is to get the next big gig, why poison your name at all? – what would I have done differently? kept my mouth shut, networked with the other bands, and looked for new opportunities – that’s business – and if he’s good he’ll get another one and someday it’ll be a good enough gig with enough real pros that he’ll be past this crap – OR I would just get out, if it’s so horrible to him (which is fair) then why not get out? seems to me like he wants a lot of publicity, just like the tell-all book mentality – my wife used to be a DJ and previously worked at a famous rock station and this whole story was "hardly surprizing" to her – finally, to clarify, no I’m not proposing this is the way things should be but by the same token you’ve got a low margin proposition (touring) with a band which a record company wants to squeeze totally in the here-and-now because they might not be around tomorrow, plus the band is in that spot of swelling egos battling with life on the road battling with (one hopes) artistic aspirations battling with commercial goals; sure as far as touring goes this is definitely near the bottom of the barrel but my question really is what exactly is the big surprize in any of this?; we’ve heard stories of bands getting dumped in Europe completely with no money and no way to get home; we’ve heard of bands that were so degenerate in their off-time activities that it certainly extends beyond anything we heard here (raping groupies and such); and egos, well, that’s a huge problem; and drugs are de rigeur unfortunately – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sounds like a naive young guy who among other things didn’t have the sense to get a firm deal before he went in, as well as he seems oddly surprized by the goings on. He’s actually been performing in local bands for quite a while — no spring chicken on that front. Admittedly, this was not spelled out in the article, but there we are. As to being oddly surprised — well, can you say *you* weren’t at points? If you weren’t, I’d venture to say you were either someone who has seen it all in the business [and perhaps you have -- I know ML has!] but therefore surely can appreciate that what might be standard for said business can be truly surprising or strange for most everyone else, or someone who is completely cynical to expect absolute nothing less no matter what the situation. I’m fairly cynical myself, but I’m not *that* cynical. He knew some of the bandmembers on a casual basis and was asked in — any number of parallels suggest themselves in other aspects of life, really. He thought it would be good on several fronts, if not perfect, but found himself disillusioned on those points. Nothing about it struck me as a ‘heigh-ho, I’m going on tour with these guys who love me and consider me their bestest friends, and nothing will go wrong!’ Rather, he had certain expectations that were miserably dashed on top of other BS as well. At least, this is how I see it all. If he’s being honest I feel bad for him but of course we’re also hearing just his side of it. Fair. But what kind of defense can be offered in so many of those situations, really? McGrath reacts on a Pavlovian basis, as the author points out, whenever someone calls him an asshole — he agrees with it and makes it part of his schtick. So now somebody *really* calls him an asshole and offers up some tales. I’d be interested if this came to a court case, say, because I’ll be willing to bet if it did the author would be vindicated on the most part. I’ll also tell you why I trust his tale — if he himself ever really wanted to ‘make it’ in the industry, he just shot himself in the foot by telling all, naming names. Who’d want to sign him, work with him, in the industry as a result? This guy *knows* word of this will get around, and I’d be willing to bet he doesn’t care, and will just keep on keeping on. How many side pros and other folks in similar situations have been keeping quiet for the sake of employment, I have to wonder? It’s amazing just how many people (authority figures) he seems to have a problem with, so I suspect he’s a part of the whole sick circus, not just some innocent dragged into it. This part confuses me slightly — if you’re referring to, say, the one manager guy complaining about the sticker, why *wouldn’t* you have a problem with that? Could you be a little more specific as to why you think he shouldn’t be trusted on that particular basis? Or do you yourself never have a problem with authority figures ever? Finally, it seems strange to me he’s so taken aback by what he sees – has he never read a book or listened to an interview in his life Come, this gets ridiculous. I’ll lay it on the line — were I in his shoes, knowing that the rock business is laden with assholery and that things aren’t what they same most of the time, *I’d* be taken aback by a lot of this stuff. Certainly some of it is classic office politics in a new and odder setting. This said, a lot of the sheer pettiness would have me wondering how people could act like that, and the sheer stupidities even more. Lord knows if I ever got to the point where absolutely *nothing* surprised me anymore and I just acknowledged it and went ‘eh’, then…well, no, frankly. That’s a little too cold-blooded for me, and I’m sorry if that somehow is a problem. You could watch a lifetime of _Behind the Music_ episodes and still have some — lots! — of room for shock. He’s either none-too-with-it or an asshole I would guess. Would you have done better? I am serious — you sound like you have all the answers here. I am intrigued to know why you have been constantly taking a rather odd tone throughout your response — I almost call it Monday-morning quarterbacking. And regardless of what he was through, his sabotage of the last night is inexcusable – you don’t like the job you do/the company you keep, you split, you don’t go down to thier level. Fair enough. But this ties into the point I made above — namely, you seem to have all the answers here. What exactly entitles you to this particular approach? I might (*might*) have just left myself — but frankly, I don’t blame the guy for doing what he did there at all. Comparatively speaking, I’ve heard far worse — and given some of the stupid shit the band and crew and all that were doing, equating the erasing of the keyboard with that might make sense on a level where all sins are equal, which is not something I buy. Anyway, as usual best of luck to all concerned, this guy, Sugar Ray, and the hooker. They certainly all need it. Because you, apparently, do not? Hm. Ned ned wondering more and more about this at kuci.org

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Well, I’m not sure it’s worth a lot of time but as you seem to have questions of me:

Indeed so. Actually, you’ve raised some more while answering others, so let’s focus on those new ones. – he takes swipes at virtually every authority figure he encounters, one could say probably gratuitously – Courtney Love, Billy Idol, the manager he encounters, the leader of Cake, etc.

*Authority* figures? Aside from the manager, these are authority figures? What type of world is this you describe, frankly? I don’t buy this categorization. Entertainers, yes. But how in the world could you describe any of them as authority figures? They’re not the police, the armed forces, anything to do with civil or religious leadership. he KNEW he was violating some unspoken rule (look how he expresses "sneaking" it and how he’s glad nobody saw the videotape); why should he be surprized?;

I don’t immediately recall him being surprised per se — the rhetoric indicates he was more doing it as a laugh in the first place. I rather doubt he was honestly expecting major labels to beat down his door the following day asking for info and for the world media market to suddenly ignore Sugar Ray entirely. why should he expect the band should confront him as that is WHY they have managers;

Oh, so all problems should always be handled by middlemen? Logically, if I hired a student worker for where I work and he did something I saw as a problem, instead of telling him directly I should ask my own supervisor, say, to talk to him. I don’t regard that as being particularly effective or thoughtful an approach — I *do* regard it as an evasion of responsibility. – as far as why he would risk his name in the industry – well maybe he already ruined it or maybe more likely he hopes this will be a splash and he wants a job as a "rock journalist" or who knows why?

It might just be me — and I’m not saying the guy is supposed to be a saint, but he *does* have a sense of humor and pathos both, which tends to help — but claims to the contrary you are relentless in assuming a strictly negative answer to a lot of his motivations. Did it ever occur to you that, *just maybe*, he was not fond of [and now is even less fonder] of the ‘industry’ in general, that he has no particular desire to be a journalist and has done it strictly as a one-off? but I would have to say that since, to me, the whole reason to go on this tour is to get the next big gig, why poison your name at all?

Because he had had enough and didn’t care about ‘the next big gig.’ Because this was done as a first-time experience acting as a sideman and he was fed up with what eventually happened. Why are these possibilities so hard to consider? You keep assuming that the guy is a hard-bitten pro who moves from sideman gig to sideman gig, when the evidence for that is missing. If he’s thinking that his name has been poisoned to the likes of a band he now happily despises anyway, I can’t imagine him losing sleep over it. – what would I have done differently? kept my mouth shut, networked with the other bands, and looked for new opportunities – that’s business –

Again, none of which seems like he was interested in doing at all. You see a career path where circumstances force you to lie or not tell the whole truth, which if you have some sense of personal standards is probably more than a little frustrating, yes? I get no sense that he was planning on doing this sort of side work forever and ever. You seem to think it could be worth the b.s.; I happily side with this guy in saying it *isn’t*. OR I would just get out, if it’s so horrible to him (which is fair) then why not get out? seems to me like he wants a lot of publicity, just like the tell-all book mentality

A lot of publicity — listen to you. Is this story on the cover of _Rolling Stone_? The lead in _SonicNet_? A headline on the _National Inquirer_? Has the Sugar Ray experience been brought to a grinding halt because of it all, are questions being raised in Congress? Hardly. If he wanted to aim for publicity due to one of the more well known bands at the present time, he could have aimed a lot higher for potentially a lot more money. Frankly, this story sounds like a case where somebody at the _Weekly_ heard about it either in a conversation with the guy or from the friend of a friend and thought, ‘Hey, that would be a cool thing to run with our music issue — wanna write it up?’ And two to one within weeks whatever relatively minor stir might be raised will likely ebb to nothing. – my wife used to be a DJ and previously worked at a famous rock station and this whole story was "hardly surprizing" to her

That’s all very nice. But I do believe I was talking to you and not your wife about this — though as a DJ myself, I salute her choice of profession. what exactly is the big surprize in any of this?

Maybe there is no ‘big surprise’ — as I guessed, ML said he’s heard plenty like this before, and even brought forward some other examples in comparison. And perhaps what I’m increasingly surprised about is your take on this all. Ned ned thinking it’s rather late now, isn’t it, at kuci.org

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: : Chortling? This made me depressed. : Some parts of it *are* very depressing, especially the encounter with : the hooker in SF. But in terms of black humor overall — and the fact : that I think most of us can rest easy knowing that we aren’t anything : like El Asshole Grande who sings for said band — there’s lots to : laugh at. Even tragedy can provoke the absurd, surely. Actually it spurred some thoughts and questions about what some of the financial differences are between major-label bands and indie bands – i.e., how much they can expect to earn, etc. They were really sort of general though and I’m not sure where to look for more information. Josh NP: Mike Watt, _Ball Hog or Tugboat?_ — i wanna know, am i the sky or a bird?

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Sounds like a naive young guy who among other things didn’t have the sense to get a firm deal before he went in, as well as he seems oddly surprized by the goings on. If he’s being honest I feel bad for him but of course we’re also hearing just his side of it. It’s amazing just how many people (authority figures) he seems to have a problem with, so I suspect he’s a part of the whole sick circus, not just some innocent dragged into it. Finally, it seems strange to me he’s so taken aback by what he sees – has he never read a book or listened to an interview in his life OR is he just trying to get back at those he perceived screwed him by making a big story out of everything? He’s either none-too-with-it or an asshole I would guess. And regardless of what he was through, his sabotage of the last night is inexcusable – you don’t like the job you do/the company you keep, you split, you don’t go down to thier level. Anyway, as usual best of luck to all concerned, this guy, Sugar Ray, and the hooker. They certainly all need it.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : There are certainly other well-written tales of rock and roll scumdom : and the true shit of the entertainment cycle out there, but this, : I venture to you, is one of the best I’ve ever *EVER* read. Just : read and enjoy — the writer has known the bandmembers to an extent : for years and, well, you’ll see. Massive entertainment, and no : doubt to those like ML who have worked in the business, all too : familiar and stupid as well: : http://www.ocweekly.com/ink/99/46/feedback-fryer.shtml : Ned : ned chortling heartily at it all at kuci.org Chortling? This made me depressed. Josh NP: Weezer, s/t — Joel is a sex machine.

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Sounds like a naive young guy who among other things didn’t have the sense to get a firm deal before he went in, as well as he seems oddly surprized by the goings on.

He’s actually been performing in local bands for quite a while — no spring chicken on that front. Admittedly, this was not spelled out in the article, but there we are. As to being oddly surprised — well, can you say *you* weren’t at points? If you weren’t, I’d venture to say you were either someone who has seen it all in the business [and perhaps you have -- I know ML has!] but therefore surely can appreciate that what might be standard for said business can be truly surprising or strange for most everyone else, or someone who is completely cynical to expect absolute nothing less no matter what the situation. I’m fairly cynical myself, but I’m not *that* cynical. He knew some of the bandmembers on a casual basis and was asked in — any number of parallels suggest themselves in other aspects of life, really. He thought it would be good on several fronts, if not perfect, but found himself disillusioned on those points. Nothing about it struck me as a ‘heigh-ho, I’m going on tour with these guys who love me and consider me their bestest friends, and nothing will go wrong!’ Rather, he had certain expectations that were miserably dashed on top of other BS as well. At least, this is how I see it all. If he’s being honest I feel bad for him but of course we’re also hearing just his side of it.

Fair. But what kind of defense can be offered in so many of those situations, really? McGrath reacts on a Pavlovian basis, as the author points out, whenever someone calls him an asshole — he agrees with it and makes it part of his schtick. So now somebody *really* calls him an asshole and offers up some tales. I’d be interested if this came to a court case, say, because I’ll be willing to bet if it did the author would be vindicated on the most part. I’ll also tell you why I trust his tale — if he himself ever really wanted to ‘make it’ in the industry, he just shot himself in the foot by telling all, naming names. Who’d want to sign him, work with him, in the industry as a result? This guy *knows* word of this will get around, and I’d be willing to bet he doesn’t care, and will just keep on keeping on. How many side pros and other folks in similar situations have been keeping quiet for the sake of employment, I have to wonder? It’s amazing just how many people (authority figures) he seems to have a problem with, so I suspect he’s a part of the whole sick circus, not just some innocent dragged into it.

This part confuses me slightly — if you’re referring to, say, the one manager guy complaining about the sticker, why *wouldn’t* you have a problem with that? Could you be a little more specific as to why you think he shouldn’t be trusted on that particular basis? Or do you yourself never have a problem with authority figures ever? Finally, it seems strange to me he’s so taken aback by what he sees – has he never read a book or listened to an interview in his life

Come, this gets ridiculous. I’ll lay it on the line — were I in his shoes, knowing that the rock business is laden with assholery and that things aren’t what they same most of the time, *I’d* be taken aback by a lot of this stuff. Certainly some of it is classic office politics in a new and odder setting. This said, a lot of the sheer pettiness would have me wondering how people could act like that, and the sheer stupidities even more. Lord knows if I ever got to the point where absolutely *nothing* surprised me anymore and I just acknowledged it and went ‘eh’, then…well, no, frankly. That’s a little too cold-blooded for me, and I’m sorry if that somehow is a problem. You could watch a lifetime of _Behind the Music_ episodes and still have some — lots! — of room for shock. He’s either none-too-with-it or an asshole I would guess.

Would you have done better? I am serious — you sound like you have all the answers here. I am intrigued to know why you have been constantly taking a rather odd tone throughout your response — I almost call it Monday-morning quarterbacking. And regardless of what he was through, his sabotage of the last night is inexcusable – you don’t like the job you do/the company you keep, you split, you don’t go down to thier level.

Fair enough. But this ties into the point I made above — namely, you seem to have all the answers here. What exactly entitles you to this particular approach? I might (*might*) have just left myself — but frankly, I don’t blame the guy for doing what he did there at all. Comparatively speaking, I’ve heard far worse — and given some of the stupid shit the band and crew and all that were doing, equating the erasing of the keyboard with that might make sense on a level where all sins are equal, which is not something I buy. Anyway, as usual best of luck to all concerned, this guy, Sugar Ray, and the hooker. They certainly all need it.

Because you, apparently, do not? Hm. Ned ned wondering more and more about this at kuci.org

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http://www.ocweekly.com/ink/99/46/feedback-fryer.shtml

I love the internet. I’m glad that i’m not in it for the money, too. -Matt — "Sea monkeys are NOT PRIMATES!" — Max, of Sam and Max

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: There are certainly other well-written tales of rock and roll scumdom : and the true shit of the entertainment cycle out there, but this, : I venture to you, is one of the best I’ve ever *EVER* read. Just : read and enjoy — the writer has known the bandmembers to an extent : for years and, well, you’ll see. Massive entertainment, and no : doubt to those like ML who have worked in the business, all too : familiar and stupid as well: : http://www.ocweekly.com/ink/99/46/feedback-fryer.shtml : Ned : ned chortling heartily at it all at kuci.org Chortling? This made me depressed. Josh NP: Weezer, s/t — Joel is a sex machine.

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Chortling? This made me depressed.

Some parts of it *are* very depressing, especially the encounter with the hooker in SF. But in terms of black humor overall — and the fact that I think most of us can rest easy knowing that we aren’t anything like El Asshole Grande who sings for said band — there’s lots to laugh at. Even tragedy can provoke the absurd, surely. Ned ned getting all thoughtful and all that at kuci.org

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There are certainly other well-written tales of rock and roll scumdom and the true shit of the entertainment cycle out there, but this, I venture to you, is one of the best I’ve ever *EVER* read. Just read and enjoy — the writer has known the bandmembers to an extent for years and, well, you’ll see. Massive entertainment, and no doubt to those like ML who have worked in the business, all too familiar and stupid as well: http://www.ocweekly.com/ink/99/46/feedback-fryer.shtml Ned ned chortling heartily at it all at kuci.org

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I concur. VERY entertaining read…

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There are certainly other well-written tales of rock and roll scumdom and the true shit of the entertainment cycle out there, but this, I venture to you, is one of the best I’ve ever *EVER* read. Just read and enjoy — the writer has known the bandmembers to an extent for years and, well, you’ll see. Massive entertainment, and no doubt to those like ML who have worked in the business, all too familiar and stupid as well: http://www.ocweekly.com/ink/99/46/feedback-fryer.shtml Ned ned chortling heartily at it all at kuci.org I concur. VERY entertaining read…

indeed, and if malo got 40% of the publishing on "every morning," i will be pleased, verily so. peace…fred (np: pet shop boys, "kdx125")

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Dear friends [and Sugar Ray fans! ;-)], an absolute must-read

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