Act Acting » Career Acting » Gay Baseball PLayer? outing issue

Gay Baseball PLayer? outing issue

Question:

In article <MPG.157ac405bb422c19989…@news2.one.net>, scorpio – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<scor…@shadow.airforce.net> wrote: > thought this might be a good time to share this: > Homosexual Agenda Finally Exposed > I know that many of you have heard Pat Robertson, Jerry Fallwell and > others speak of the "Homosexual Agenda," but no one has ever seen a copy > of it. > Well, I have finally obtained a copy directly from the Head Homosexual. > It follows below: >     6:00 am  Gym >     8:00 am  Breakfast (oatmeal and egg whites) >     9:00 am  Hair appointment >    10:00 am  Shopping >    12:00 PM  Brunch >     2:00 PM >      1) Assume complete control of the >      U.S. Federal, State and Local >      Governments as well as all other >      national governments, >      2) Recruit all straight youngsters to our >      debauched lifestyle, >      3) Destroy all healthy heterosexual >      marriages, >      4) Replace all school counselors in >      grades K-12 with agents of Colombian >      and Jamaican drug cartels, >      5) Establish planetary chain of "homo >      breeding gulags" where over-medicated >      imprisoned straight women are turned >      into artificially impregnated baby factories >      to produce prepubescent love slaves for >      our devotedly pederastic gay leadership, >      6) bulldoze all houses of worship, and >      7) Secure total control of the INTERNET >      and all mass media for the exclusive >      use of child pornographers. >     2:30 PM   Get forty winks of beauty rest >      to prevent facial wrinkles from stress >      of world conquest >     4:00 PM  Cocktails >     6:00 PM  Light Dinner (soup, salad, >      with Chardonnay) >     8:00 PM  Theater >    11:00 PM  Bed (du jour)? > remove===>stain<===to reply

That’s a good start. I’d like to see an agenda item added: we need to revise the prizes given away to those who recruit new members to the homosexual lifestyle. I mean really, a toaster oven? — Jockwoof <jockwoof at infernosoft dot com>   jocks: http://www.infernosoft.com/community/hockey/jock jock FAQ: http://www.infernosoft.com/community/hockey/jock/faq.shtml asjs charter: http://www.infernosoft.com/community/hockey/jock/charter.shtml

Response:

FTM2 <f…@aol.com> wrote: > What happened to Ellen DeGeneres was here own fault.  It is one thing to be an > Out star or athlete and another to shove it down peoples throat.  It might not > have been all her fault.  ABC might have wanted her to push it more.  But she > was the gay one.  She should have known better.  It is one thing to be a gay > star of TV, it is another thing to push the issue every week.  Cause after > awhile (like the same messages in this room) the shit gets old.  If we have to > discuss kids that don’t shower anymore and why again I’ll go bonkers.

The main problem with Ellen’s last season was that most of the humor was based on in-jokes.  The gay references didn’t *offend* straight audiences, they just didn’t make any sense to them.  Practically the whole point of in-group humor is that the "mundanes" don’t get it, but that means that it can’t appeal to a mass audience, which is what a sitcom has to do.  She’d have had the same problem if the show had been full of inside references to the retail book trade; it would have been really funny to viewers who worked in that industry, but boring to everyone else. Also remember that her show had been steadily losing ratings *before* she came out.  The coming-out episode and the next couple of episodes actually got better ratings than most of the shows from the previous season, but it became apparent that the boost was entirely due to novelty which soon wore off.

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Jockbud 4 Stud <jockbud4s…@aol.com> wrote: > Lets face it. Gay rights has come a long way. We may still have a long way to > go but the days where one had to fear for one’s life because of being outed is > long gone. The real fear plaguing closeted athletes, movie stars, politicians > and other public figures isn’t so much a matter of losing dignity as has been > discussed, It’s about losing MONEY. Plain and simple. All of these people make > ridiculous amounts of money. And none of them wants to risk that wonderful cash > flow to allow society to realize that not all gays are the leather wearing, > promiscuous, drag queens that proliferate gay parades and that the media keeps > photographing in earnest to convince the world that we are a people interested > in nothing more than drugs, sex and molesting their children.

It’s not just about money.  For many people in those types of careers, being outed would mean no longer being able to pursue the careers that they’ve sunk enormous amounts of time into for much of their lives.  And remember that *most* people in those fields aren’t high-paid superstars.   The average NFL player’s career lasts less than four years.  Only a minority of actors can support themselves entirely with the money they make acting, and so on.  Simple statistics tell us that the majority of closeted gay pro athletes are *not* the high-paid superstars, simply because most pro athletes, gay or straight, aren’t the high-paid superstars. Keep in mind that David Kopay, the football player who came out right before retiring, was unable to find work in any sports-related field after he retired.

Response:

Boy- you guys have really taken my original posting and twisted into some pretty far fetched statements. This isn’t a serious discussion anymore its deteriorated into a nitpicking argument because I’ve somehow offended someone by making a comment about leather or masculinity or something that was completely benign, misquoted and misunderstood. I’ll say it one last time – by entering into this discussion I have never said I approve of outing anyone. Ever. The point of my post was to point out that we tend to sympthasize wat too much for people who CHOOSE to have a career in front of a camera. Period! I said nothing about their sex lives – I said when they lie about being homosexual in magazines it gives others the impression to the public that there is in fact (as they already believe) something very immoral and wrong about being gay. And I said we will never combat those kinds of attitudes until we have an enormous amount of role models in sports. politics and the entertsinment industry who can stand up and say "no I’m not married, but I do have a samesex life partner and we’re very happy together". I NEVER said anything about wanting to know what people do in bed or what lube people use. You people have really gotten way off the track here and frankly its not worth even reading these replies anymore because they are so off course they are irrelevant. SO this is my last post. I gave it my best shot but you all aren’t interested in anything more than an argument and I just don’t have time for that. I’ve spoken my peace, have a great weekend. . Oh, and ps to goalie: If you really believe that most people think homosexuality is OK and normal you are very seriously deluded. If you ever look at any of the state vote returns on gay issues  or any polls (even the ones AOL does online) about whether gays deserve equal rights or legitimate marriage or whether people find it an acceptable lifestyle you would see that the overwhelming majority of folks vote against us every single time. OVERWHELMINGLY. Thats not an opinion. Thats a fact. Just thought you should know the american public in general is not as thrilled to have us on this planet as you apparently think.

Response:

On 26 May 2001 14:36:47 GMT, jockbud4s…@aol.com (Jockbud 4 Stud) wrote: Sorry, I don’t agree with outting!  If the person is a nasty homo-phobic sob then go for it otherwise, leave ‘em alone! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->You’d rather let professional athletes make the decision to come out on their >own? Please. And what century would that be do you suppose? >Lets face it. Gay rights has come a long way. We may still have a long way to >go but the days where one had to fear for one’s life because of being outed is >long gone. The real fear plaguing closeted athletes, movie stars, politicians >and other public figures isn’t so much a matter of losing dignity as has been >discussed, It’s about losing MONEY. Plain and simple. All of these people make >ridiculous amounts of money. And none of them wants to risk that wonderful cash >flow to allow society to realize that not all gays are the leather wearing, >promiscuous, drag queens that proliferate gay parades and that the media keeps >photographing in earnest to convince the world that we are a people interested >in nothing more than drugs, sex and molesting their children. >If we’re going to wait for these closeted and highly powerful people to stop >making money in favor of enriching humanity I think we can pretty much forget >that. Did Ellen DeGeneres get much more thanks than a cancelled show for coming >out? If gay teens had more public figures as gay role models there’d be a heck >of a lot less teen suicides in this country – or the world for that matter. But >no, lets let gay people who agree to live their lives in front of the media lie >about their lives, lets let them push gay rights back hundreds of years by >telling phoney stories about who they’re dating or screwing or marrying rather >than be honest about who they are – we wouldn’t want them to actually have to >live with the consequences of being a public figure would we??? Whats another >dead teenager anyway?

Response:

What happened to Ellen DeGeneres was here own fault.  It is one thing to be an Out star or athlete and another to shove it down peoples throat.  It might not have been all her fault.  ABC might have wanted her to push it more.  But she was the gay one.  She should have known better.  It is one thing to be a gay star of TV, it is another thing to push the issue every week.  Cause after awhile (like the same messages in this room) the shit gets old.  If we have to discuss kids that don’t shower anymore and why again I’ll go bonkers. I do believe everybody deserves equal rights.  I don’t believe anybody deserves special rights. Now it’s time for me to get off my soap box. Thanks for the chance to vent. Take care Derek

Response:

In tonight’s episode, our supersecret microphone captures Jockbud 4 Stud saying: > If gay teens had more public figures as gay role models there’d be a heck > of a lot less teen suicides in this country – or the world for that matter. But > no, lets let gay people who agree to live their lives in front of the media lie > about their lives, lets let them push gay rights back hundreds of years by > telling phoney stories about who they’re dating or screwing or marrying rather > than be honest about who they are – we wouldn’t want them to actually have to > live with the consequences of being a public figure would we??? Whats another > dead teenager anyway?

even though there is some merit to what you say, the bottom line is that it is *THEIR* life to lead as they want. this is one of the hypocrisies of gay people is that they scream for people to let them lead their own lives as they see fit but are more than willing to apply a double-standard when its application interferes with their agenda. these people owe you *nothing*, if you don’t like how they present themselves in public, then don’t patronize their products/events. — remove===>stain<===to reply

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hmmmm  me thinks I have to add my two cents….    if you think it is just about losing money …. (a valid issue…  but why should any of us not be entitled to earn the living anyone else does…..)  just ask Dave Kopay and Dave Palone… both of whom LOST their careers….   I have read Mr. Palones book….  he did not leave baseball of his own volition…..   as to Ellen Degeneres..  she did just exactly what the GAY media had been demanding she do as a responsible homosexual… come out…  publicly… in her own terms and set the example.. and yes… her show tanked…..  as a result…   so far be it for any of us to judge what she did.   there are many openly gay actors…  some of them terrific….   and I would still like to know why they dont get hired to play gay.. but the str8 actors do…     outing any of them is just not fair….  how many of you are completely openly out at YOUR job….   I am… and yes… I do pay consequences for it.

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In article <20010526123913.14738.00002…@ng-md1.aol.com>, f…@aol.com (FTM2) wrote: > What happened to Ellen DeGeneres was here own fault.  It is one thing > to be an Out star or athlete and another to shove it down peoples > throat.  

Oh, stop! Isn’t it "shoving it down people’s throat" when a man and woman announce to everyone they’re getting married? They’re announcing to the whole world that they’re planning to have sex! Isn’t it "shoving it down people’s throat" when a man and woman announce to everyone that the woman is pregnant? They’re announcing to the whole whold that they had sex! Isn’t it "shoving it down people’s throat" when a man and woman announce to everyone that the woman had her baby? They’re announcing to the whole whold that they had sex! >It might not have been all her fault.  ABC might have wanted > her to push it more.  But she was the gay one.  She should have known > better.  It is one thing to be a gay star of TV, it is another thing > to push the issue every week.  Cause after awhile (like the same > messages in this room) the shit gets old.  If we have to discuss kids > that don’t shower anymore and why again I’ll go bonkers. > I do believe everybody deserves equal rights.  I don’t believe > anybody deserves special rights. > Now it’s time for me to get off my soap box.

And time for me to get on mine. Do you think that since *you* are tired of hearing about the gay issue, no one shoudl come out any more? That’s what it sounds like. — Jockwoof <jockwoof at infernosoft dot com>   jocks: http://www.infernosoft.com/community/hockey/jock jock FAQ: http://www.infernosoft.com/community/hockey/jock/faq.shtml asjs charter: http://www.infernosoft.com/community/hockey/jock/charter.shtml

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I find it interesting too, that gay activists expect others to "respect" their choices in life, but have a hard time respecting the choices of others. In order to garner respect from others you have to be willing to respect them and their choices as well. Gay activists believe that they have a right to march down the street wearing biker boots, leather chaps with a jock, a harness and a biker cap. And they expect others to respect their life choices. But i think those same gay activist have to respect the rights of others to look at them and say "wow, what a freak!" I find it interesting that gays often, relate stories to each other about how tough it was for them to come out, but have absolutley no compunction about outing somebody before they are ready to deal with it. It just indicates a complete lack of respect for others. I’ve been at one of the local gay bars in town with a bunch of gay friends and some local sports or media star walks into the bar, and everybody is all a buzz about who that person is and then goes around telling everybody they see for the next three days about the fact that they saw so and so in the gay bar. They didn’t have the guts to walk up to the person and say hi, but they’ll go around talking about them behind their back. Talk about a complete lack of respect! If somebody happens to get lucky with a sports star i think out of respect for that person regardless of who they are, you shouldn’t talk about it. We’ve all been in the situation where you go home with somebody one night and the next time you go to the bar, everybody is asking you how the guy was. I find that indicates that the person asking has a complete lack of respect for the person  you went home with and for yourself. Expecting others to live the way you do, just because, in your particular situation, it works for you. Indicates a complete lack of respect for others inteligence and their ability to make choices for themselves. goalie2

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"Interesting" that you make commentary on the issue clearly without having read all the posts or you wouldnt make the sweepingly inaccurate statements you make. "Interesting" that you think you have to be an activist to stand up for rights that are constitutional and god given. "Interesting" that you think all activists wear leather boots and harnesses (I would think on a jockstrap board you’d consider that sort of thing "normal"). I assure you where I volunteer no one wears jockstraps or harnesses (at least not while they’re working there). Interesting that you feel those poeple who do wear such attire are "freaks". And not surprisingly-t you missed the entire point of the argument which is that we are talking about people who make a CHOICE to be in the public eye but cry about losing their privacy when thats part and parcel about being in the public eye and everyone with half a brain knows that. Doesn’t make it right and it doesn’t make it nice but thats the way it is. Celebrity is what sells magazines and newspapers and tv shows.  If you don’t want everyone knowing your business don’t seek out the life of a  celebrity. No ones talking about outing a librarian at your local highschool – we’re talking about people who are center stage and who purport to stand for something in the public’s eye. Get it? People who wan’t privacy and need to hide their sexual idenity shouldn’t go running for a career in front of the camera. If you can’t be honest with yourself about who you are – stay home.

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In article <20010526201613.13262.00001…@ng-mn1.aol.com>, jockbud4s…@aol.com (Jockbud 4 Stud) wrote: > "Interesting" that you make commentary on the issue clearly without > having read all the posts or you wouldnt make the sweepingly > inaccurate statements you make.

Jockbud, are you referring to Goalie’s post? I can only infer that that’s what you’re talking about because of the remarkable similarity between your criticisms and Goalie’s post. In case you’re talking about some other post, I apologize in advance. > "Interesting" that you think you have to be an activist to stand up > for rights that are constitutional and god given.

I don’t see where Goalie said that. (This is why I’m not sure what you’re actually referring to. Quoting the appropriate text would bave helped.) > "Interesting" that you think all activists wear leather boots and > harnesses (I would think on a jockstrap board you’d consider that > sort of thing "normal").

Goalie didn’t say that … you should actually read his post rather than just skimming it. Goalie said "Gay activists believe that they have a right to march down the street wearing biker boots, leather chaps with a jock, a harness and a biker cap." That’s not the same thing as what you accuse him of saying. (Of course, I could be entirely mistaken if you were referring to some other post.) >I assure you where I volunteer no one wears > jockstraps or harnesses (at least not while they’re working there).

I have no doubt that your group of activists would never allow anyone to appear in public as though they support the leathermen. > Interesting that you feel those poeple who do wear such attire are > "freaks".

Goalie didn’t call them freaks; he reported that the gay people he’s seen said that. > And not surprisingly-t you missed the entire point of the argument > which is that we are talking about people who make a CHOICE to be in > the public eye but cry about losing their privacy when thats part and > parcel about being in the public eye and everyone with half a brain > knows that. Doesn’t make it right and it doesn’t make it nice but > thats the way it is. Celebrity is what sells magazines and newspapers > and tv shows.  If you don’t want everyone knowing your business don’t > seek out the life of a celebrity.

You’re validating journalists’ rights to pry into people’s private lives. It used to be that the police would publish the names and addresses of people they arrested at gay bars. You’re advocating the very same sort of invasion of privacy. >No ones talking about outing a > librarian at your local highschool – we’re talking about people who > are center stage and who purport to stand for something in the > public’s eye. Get it? People who wan’t privacy and need to hide their > sexual idenity shouldn’t go running for a career in front of the > camera. If you can’t be honest with yourself about who you are – stay > home

Going to a gay bar doesn’t make you a celebrity. Going to a gay bar is not the same thing as calling a press conference. And this baseball player whom no one knew or cared anything about until now is not exactly a celebrity … just some guy who’s good enough at baseball to be able to make a living at it. It will not advance the cause of gay rights to out this guy. I’m disenchanted with much of gay activism. It appears to me as though to be a gay activist, you must support every bit of the complete gay activist agenda. To engage in certain incorrect activities is the political kiss of death. I’ve been called "the enemy" by gay activists because I play ice hockey. (Somehow, being a goalie proves that I’m too intent on being seen as butch and too scared to be in touch with my feminine side, or some such psychopolitical balderdash.) When it comes to gay athletics, I’ve quite had it with the activists. I play hockey because I like it, not as a political statement. The baseball player in question has the right to decide for himself whether he should come out of the closet. Who the hell gave anyone else the right to force him out of that privacy? It’s his choice, and political necessity can go to hell. — Jockwoof <jockwoof at infernosoft dot com>   jocks: http://www.infernosoft.com/community/hockey/jock jock FAQ: http://www.infernosoft.com/community/hockey/jock/faq.shtml asjs charter: http://www.infernosoft.com/community/hockey/jock/charter.shtml

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thought this might be a good time to share this: Homosexual Agenda Finally Exposed I know that many of you have heard Pat Robertson, Jerry Fallwell and others speak of the "Homosexual Agenda," but no one has ever seen a copy of it. Well, I have finally obtained a copy directly from the Head Homosexual. It follows below:     6:00 am  Gym     8:00 am  Breakfast (oatmeal and egg whites)     9:00 am  Hair appointment    10:00 am  Shopping    12:00 PM  Brunch     2:00 PM      1) Assume complete control of the      U.S. Federal, State and Local      Governments as well as all other      national governments,      2) Recruit all straight youngsters to our      debauched lifestyle,      3) Destroy all healthy heterosexual      marriages,      4) Replace all school counselors in      grades K-12 with agents of Colombian      and Jamaican drug cartels,      5) Establish planetary chain of "homo      breeding gulags" where over-medicated      imprisoned straight women are turned      into artificially impregnated baby factories      to produce prepubescent love slaves for      our devotedly pederastic gay leadership,      6) bulldoze all houses of worship, and      7) Secure total control of the INTERNET      and all mass media for the exclusive      use of child pornographers.     2:30 PM   Get forty winks of beauty rest      to prevent facial wrinkles from stress      of world conquest     4:00 PM  Cocktails     6:00 PM  Light Dinner (soup, salad,      with Chardonnay)     8:00 PM  Theater    11:00 PM  Bed (du jour)? remove===>stain<===to reply

Response:

WOW! I didn’t think my post would catch fire like this, but I’m glad. I think as gay men, it’s good to talk about this subject. Personally I was in the closet for 20 years (military), but during that time I met (very discreetly) other enlisted and some high ranking officers for an occasional ‘rolls in the hay.’ It’s called don’t ask and don’t tell. I knew that 30 years ago, because it’s also called survival. I now live comfortably on a military pension could give a shit less who knows I’m gay. If it upsets them, it’s their problem. Getting back to the Out editor, Mr. Lemon, he says his concern with this gay baseball player was "the way it affects his behavior toward his teammates, and I have concluded that coming out would, on balance, lessen his psychic burden." On television show Mr. Lemon said that one of his reasons for bringing up the subject was "because I was frustrated at not being able to hang out with him." The other reason?  To awaken America’s conscience about gay athletes. I agree that it’s the baseball players decision to come out of the closet. It definitely won’t be easy, considering today’s climate in America. But who better to come out, some kid flipping burgers or some baseball player making an average of $2M per year? It’s called role models, and yes there’s thousands of gay teens who are lost and bewildered and confused about their sexual feelings toward their own sex, who will kill themselves just to find peace. Professional athletes are public figures, whether they like it or not, and coming out and telling the world will help so many gays who need someone to model themselves after. I’ll never be a professional athlete, but if Congress ever convenes another panel on gays in the military, I’m going to try my damndest to appear in Washington and give them some eye opening facts about my 20 years in as a gay man! I hope this makes sense, I’m not the greatest writer.

Response:

In article <20010527003124.13262.00001…@ng-mn1.aol.com>, jockbud4s…@aol.com (Jockbud 4 Stud) wrote: > Professional ball players like all professional athletes aren’t just > people "who manage to play good

well >enough to make a living at it". These > people are extremely driven athletes who compete fiercly to get on a > professional team. And therefore they are in the media spotlight all > the time. They are written about in newspapers and magazines and they > are held up as the very emblem of the American dream. We watch them, > we root for them, we idolize them, heck – we pay their salary. Their > pictures are emblazoned on cards that children collect and emulate. > Their faces endorse gym shoes and cereal and sports drinks galore.

Well, the better ones, at any rate. Who cares about the obscure players? > And these people should be more than aware that their lives will come > under public scrutiny.

The logical conclusion is that unless they’re willing to have every aspect of their sexual lives made public, gay people should not get into professional sports. >I’m saying that if they weren’t so ashamed of > being gay to the point that they had to hide it – maybe the rest of > society wouldn’t think being gay was so awful either. But as long as > "we’re" too scared of the implications of our sexuality how can we > possibly expect others to accept us?

Essentially, you’re blackmailing all gay celebrities. Come clean about your sexual life or we’ll tell the newspapers all about it. > The issue here isn’t about leather.  I don’t have a problem with what > anyone wears – anywhere at anytime. And for the record I do not > consider myself an activist. I was not aware there was a gay activist > agenda – from what I remember of the gay political meetings I > attended years ago there was very little chance of getting a vote > resolved on the color of the parties advertising buttons much less an > actual agenda. There are as many different activist opinions as there > are those that oppose them. I’ve never advocated outing anyone and > I’ve never said it was right to go into a bar or out anyone- I’ve > said I think it’s shameful that celebrities lie about their sex lives > (in particular gay celebs) when it only makes being gay seem wrong, > dirty and unseemly by doing so.

I’m with you so far. > If everyone who was gay in hollywood, > the sports world and politics came out tomorrow – the result on the > rest of the world would be profound. Not just because of the sheer > number of people that action would describe, not even because of the > immense diversity of people it would contain – and not even because > many of those people were the very icons of masculinity that men in > this country live by – what would be so astonishing about this would > be the fact that finally people realised  that it being gay was > something that was completely ok and natural to be expressed in > public and not hidden. Wouldn’t THAT be something

So, as a start, we’ll just use some deductive reasoning to find out which baseball player the OUT writer is dating, is that it? Well, yes, it would be something. But it isn’t going to happen that way. — Jockwoof <jockwoof at infernosoft dot com>   jocks: http://www.infernosoft.com/community/hockey/jock jock FAQ: http://www.infernosoft.com/community/hockey/jock/faq.shtml asjs charter: http://www.infernosoft.com/community/hockey/jock/charter.shtml

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In article <th0ov2n96hh…@news.supernews.com>, "henry mensch" <he…@XXX.Verve.ORG> wrote: > i think i’ve figured this out.  here’s the key discriminator: in > housing, education, employment there’s no leading indicator that gay > people are an active detriment … gay tenants pay their rent, gay men > and women perform well at work (and, pretty much everywhere i’ve worked, > have performed *very* well and have often been the leaders in their > areas), and are good students. > socially, however, it’s a whole ‘nother ball of wax.  choose to > socialize with gay men and you’re up for discussion, whether you’re > world-famous, well-known in certain circles, or just poorly dressed.

What I think happens is that the more visible gay social life is taken over by those who behave that way, and those of us who’d rather not behave that way leave the scene. I don’t like what I perceive to be a fashion-dictated here-today-gone-tomorrow frenzied gossippy social climate, so I don’t participate. > there’s also the issue of taking advantage of all that others have done > before you without contributing yourself (particularly if you’re in a > position to make a significant contribution).

This applies just as well to everyone else… Remember that the Bill of Rights is bascially a list of solutions for problems that the English government caused the colonists. We read that document and wonder why the hell anyone would be worried about the government wanting them to provide bed and breakfast for the Marines. What is that about? We are all influenced by the things our predecessors did … should we be forced to redo all that work, or accept it and build upon it further? — Jockwoof <jockwoof at infernosoft dot com>   jocks: http://www.infernosoft.com/community/hockey/jock jock FAQ: http://www.infernosoft.com/community/hockey/jock/faq.shtml asjs charter: http://www.infernosoft.com/community/hockey/jock/charter.shtml

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In article <th0oil1etsl…@news.supernews.com>, "henry mensch" <he…@XXX.Verve.ORG> wrote: > "WildhartMC" <wildhar…@aol.com> wrote in message > news:20010526131858.18472.00002718@ng-mq1.aol.com… > > if you think it is just about losing money …. (a valid issue…  but > why should any of us not be > > entitled to earn the living anyone else does…..)  just ask Dave > Kopay and > > Dave Palone… both of whom LOST their careers…. > fifteen or twenty years ago, in the case of david kopay (don’t know how > long ago the other dave had his drama).  lots of things that happened > twenty years ago that don’t happen now

Oh, yes, no one is discharged fomr the military any more for being gay; in fact gay people are coming out all the time in the US. Just the other week a Marine Lieutenant was awarded a Levnder Star for bravery in coming out. And no pro athlete is afraid of coming out; just the other week a football player and a famous hockey goalie came out, and the press totally ignored them because it was boring news. …. not.   > >   outing any of them is just not fair…. > well, that all depends.  if they turn up in public places where gay men > congregate (and yes, this includes bathhouses and sex clubs) , i > conclude that they’re not closeted at all and they’re fair game.

Why do you feel it’s fair to out some famous person you spotted in a bar? If you met some accountant or computer programmer, would you call up his company’s HR department and tell them about him? What *good* comes of either action? > > how many of you are completely > > openly out at YOUR job….   I am… and yes… I do pay consequences > for it. > i am, and it hasn’t been an issue in fifteen years of professional > employment  

Good for you. I know from personal experience that it’s nice to have the luxury of friends and coworkers who don’t care about such things. >if your employer and your coworkers truly use this against > you then you’d best find a job where they judge you by the work you do > and not what you do on your own time.

That’s easy for you to say. You have a job where you can be out. You apparently have no sympathy for someone who doesn’t share that situation with you and, for whatever reason, feels he can’t do anything about it. And who the hell are you to dictate your morals to other people? It’s not for you to decide what’s healthy and proper and just for other people! Have you ever thought that outing closeted gay people may in fact be detrimental to the movement? I recently saw on one of those supermarket tabloids the shocking news that Tom Cruise is gay. Well, the tabloid wants to portray it as shocking, wants to reinforce the idea that being gay is a shocking thing. (I yawned, but what about that little old lady in Peoria whose son is debating coming out to her?) If The Committee (or whoever decides such things) decides to out someone, isn’t that feeding straight into that mistaken belief? What if some gay kid happened to respect an athlete, and that athlete then got kicked out of his sport’s league after being outed? What conclusions would the kid draw from that event? Certainly not that coming out is a healthy thing to do. More likely that being gay is something to be ashamed of and to hide at all costs — especially from The Committee — and that gay people are to be avoided, lest they reveal your secret to all. I believe in a person’s fundamental right to privacy, which means the choice of how much to reveal of one’s personal life to others. I reject the idea that fame or celebrity status changes that right. — Jockwoof <jockwoof at infernosoft dot com>   jocks: http://www.infernosoft.com/community/hockey/jock jock FAQ: http://www.infernosoft.com/community/hockey/jock/faq.shtml asjs charter: http://www.infernosoft.com/community/hockey/jock/charter.shtml

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Jockbud 4 Stud <jockbud4s…@aol.com> wrote in message news:20010527003124.13262.00001164@ng-mn1.aol.com… > Professional ball players like all professional athletes aren’t just people > "who manage to play good enough to make a living at it". These people are > extremely driven athletes who compete fiercly to get on a professional

team. Actually most of the time they have what would be considered "a gift", That from a very early age was honed to the skill level they posess today. Most professional athletes also give up EVERYTHING else to compete at the level they compete at. > And therefore they are in the media spotlight all the time. They are written > about in newspapers and magazines and they are held up as the very emblem of > the American dream.

They are in the SPORTS media spotlight all the time, they are written about in SPORTS section in newspapers and SPORTS magazines. "Emblem of the American dream"???????? Last time i checked the "american dream" wasn’t about being a pro athlete. And as for "them" being in the media all the time, not so. The STARS are in the media all the time, the average guy playing on a pro team is about as well know as you. >We watch them, we root for them, we idolize them, heck – we > pay their salary. Their pictures are emblazoned on cards that children collect > and emulate. Their faces endorse gym shoes and cereal and sports drinks

galore. The STARS of the game do all that, not the average player. > And these people should be more than aware that their lives will come under > public scrutiny.

Yes, their public life comes under public scrutiny, what they choose to do in their bedrooms is none of anybodies business. They have a right to keep their private lives private. or do you believe they give up the right to even the smallest amount of privacy? They became famouse because they can play a sport well, or they can inspire people to vote for them or they can sing. It doesn’t mean you have some right to know what goes on in their home. they are doing a job, just like you.  I’m saying that if they weren’t so ashamed of being gay to the > point that they had to hide it

YOU assume they are ashamed. Do you KNOW they are ashamed? Maybe they just prefer to keep their private lives private. > – maybe the rest of society wouldn’t think being > gay was so awful either.

I haven’t come out to "the rest of society" but i think, from my little expierience that most people DON’T think it’s that awful. > But as long as "we’re" too scared of the implications > of our sexuality how can we possibly expect others to accept us?

Prey, tell, what are the "implications" of our sexuality? > The issue here isn’t about leather.  I don’t have a problem with what anyone > wears – anywhere at anytime. And for the record I do not consider myself an > activist. I was not aware there was a gay activist agenda – from what I > remember of the gay political meetings I attended years ago there was very > little chance of getting a vote resolved on the color of the parties > advertising buttons much less an actual agenda. There are as many different > activist opinions as there are those that oppose them.

You attended meetings??? but there wasn’t a group??? i don’t have a problem with activists at all. In fact i think we need more activists! They do, in a lot of cases, the things i wish i had the guts to do! Like stand on the tracks to stop a "nuclear train", march on capitol hill ect,ect,ect. But one has to remember that they are as extreme  as the people on the other side of the issue. The majority of people (the dick and dorothys of the world) usually fall somewhere slightly left or right of center. >I’ve never advocated >outing anyone and I’ve never said it was right to go into a bar or out anyone- > I’ve said I think it’s shameful that celebrities lie about their sex lives (in > particular gay celebs)

Why is it shameful?? I think it’s shameful that you believe you have some right to know what Chipper Jones does in his bedroom, just because he can play baseball. Or what Liza Minelli prefers as sex lube, because she can sing. I think it’s shameful, that people would even ask them those kinds of questions! Would you ask the guy that’s about to fix your car, if he takes it up the ass? Would you think it’s appropriate to ask your plumber if he likes dressing up in womans clothes, just before he unclogs your crapper???? > when it only makes being gay seem wrong, dirty and > unseemly by doing so.

seem that way to whom? i know my saintly mom doesn’t think being gay is wrong,dirty or unseemly. > If everyone who was gay in hollywood, the sports world > and politics came out tomorrow – the result on the rest of the world would be > profound.

Really??? Personally, i don’t think it would make a lick of difference. The people who already hate gays aren’t gonna change their minds just because some ball player came out. their just gonna have more people to hate. Most people don’t give a shit one way or the other, just as long as they are left to do their "thing" > Not just because of the sheer number of people that action would > describe,

Perhaps as a way to "describe" these people, we could sew little yellow peices of material on their clothes??? would that be nice? > not even because of the immense diversity of people it would contain > – and not even because many of those people were the very icons of masculinity > that men in this country live by

So, what your saying is that right now, you can’t be gay and be masculine? or that straight men don’t think gay men are masculine? First off, what does it matter what straight men think of you, and secondly, gay men don’t tend to be all that masculine. I didn’t say that is a bad thing. i just think it’s the case.I think it’s a natural part of being gay that gay men tend to be a little more open with their feelings and less interested in portraying a macho image, which is mostly what straight men do. > – what would be so astonishing about this > would be the fact that finally people realised  that it being gay was something > that was completely ok and natural

i think most people already know it’s completely OK and natural.  to be expressed in public and not hidden. > Wouldn’t THAT be something.

And how, when this all comes about do you plan on expressing your homosexuality in public? By holding hands with your same sex mate? Ever done that now? I have, and people may look twice but they don’t seem to care. By kissing him? Do you do that now? I do. and again, never had a bad reaction. some people look, but hey, it’s not every day you see two men kissing on a busy street corner. at least in this country. Or maybe you feel you would then have the right to have sex with your partner in public. Course you’d be forgetting that if a straight couple were to do that they would be arrested too. Cheers, Goalie2

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Professional ball players like all professional athletes aren’t just people "who manage to play good enough to make a living at it". These people are extremely driven athletes who compete fiercly to get on a professional team. And therefore they are in the media spotlight all the time. They are written about in newspapers and magazines and they are held up as the very emblem of the American dream. We watch them, we root for them, we idolize them, heck – we pay their salary. Their pictures are emblazoned on cards that children collect and emulate. Their faces endorse gym shoes and cereal and sports drinks galore. And these people should be more than aware that their lives will come under public scrutiny. I’m saying that if they weren’t so ashamed of being gay to the point that they had to hide it – maybe the rest of society wouldn’t think being gay was so awful either. But as long as "we’re" too scared of the implications of our sexuality how can we possibly expect others to accept us? The issue here isn’t about leather.  I don’t have a problem with what anyone wears – anywhere at anytime. And for the record I do not consider myself an activist. I was not aware there was a gay activist agenda – from what I remember of the gay political meetings I attended years ago there was very little chance of getting a vote resolved on the color of the parties advertising buttons much less an actual agenda. There are as many different activist opinions as there are those that oppose them. I’ve never advocated outing anyone and I’ve never said it was right to go into a bar or out anyone- I’ve said I think it’s shameful that celebrities lie about their sex lives (in particular gay celebs) when it only makes being gay seem wrong, dirty and unseemly by doing so. If everyone who was gay in hollywood, the sports world and politics came out tomorrow – the result on the rest of the world would be profound. Not just because of the sheer number of people that action would describe, not even because of the immense diversity of people it would contain – and not even because many of those people were the very icons of masculinity that men in this country live by – what would be so astonishing about this would be the fact that finally people realised  that it being gay was something that was completely ok and natural to be expressed in public and not hidden. Wouldn’t THAT be something.

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Jockbud 4 Stud wrote:

 If everyone who was gay in hollywood, the sports world > and politics came out tomorrow – the result on the rest of the world would be > profound. Not just because of the sheer number of people that action would > describe, not even because of the immense diversity of people it would contain > – and not even because many of those people were the very icons of masculinity > that men in this country live by – what would be so astonishing about this > would be the fact that finally people realised  that it being gay was something > that was completely ok and natural to be expressed in public and not hidden. > Wouldn’t THAT be something.

that *would* be something, but it won’t happen.  Black actors, sports figures, and politicians have proved to be the equals of white actors, etc. and it hasn’t trickled down to the non-celebrity black.  The same is true of gays and, I suspect, will remain so.  I’m sure there are thousands, perhaps millions, of Americans who no longer ‘remember’ how Rock Hudson died, only that it’s too bad things didn’t work out with Doris Day.   But outing people is an invasion of their (right to) privacy.  And talking about their sex lives is just vulgar. d.

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"WildhartMC" <wildhar…@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20010526131858.18472.00002718@ng-mq1.aol.com… > if you think it is just about losing money …. (a valid issue…  but

why should any of us not be > entitled to earn the living anyone else does…..)  just ask Dave Kopay and > Dave Palone… both of whom LOST their careers….

fifteen or twenty years ago, in the case of david kopay (don’t know how long ago the other dave had his drama).  lots of things that happened twenty years ago that don’t happen now >   outing any of them is just not fair….

well, that all depends.  if they turn up in public places where gay men congregate (and yes, this includes bathhouses and sex clubs) , i conclude that they’re not closeted at all and they’re fair game. > how many of you are completely > openly out at YOUR job….   I am… and yes… I do pay consequences

for it. i am, and it hasn’t been an issue in fifteen years of professional employment  if your employer and your coworkers truly use this against you then you’d best find a job where they judge you by the work you do and not what you do on your own time.

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"Goalie" <goal…@home.com> wrote in message

news:ZMWP6.46898$Ub.565145@news1.rdc1.ab.home.com… > I find it interesting too, that gay activists expect others to > "respect" their choices in life, but have a hard time respecting > the choices of others.

i think i’ve figured this out.  here’s the key discriminator: in housing, education, employment there’s no leading indicator that gay people are an active detriment … gay tenants pay their rent, gay men and women perform well at work (and, pretty much everywhere i’ve worked, have performed *very* well and have often been the leaders in their areas), and are good students. socially, however, it’s a whole ‘nother ball of wax.  choose to socialize with gay men and you’re up for discussion, whether you’re world-famous, well-known in certain circles, or just poorly dressed. there’s also the issue of taking advantage of all that others have done before you without contributing yourself (particularly if you’re in a position to make a significant contribution).

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Woof, Not the point at all.  The issues are there for everyone to read.  And it is good that people have a place to express their feelings.  Right or wrong.  We are all entitled to our opinion. The part you are referring to on my post was about the kids and the shower. How many times do we need to hear that kids in HS don’t take showers anymore an we all did when we went to school.  That’s what I was talking about.  That horse has been beat into the ground. And I don’t feel that when a couple tells the their friends that they are getting married, getting pregnant and having a baby is the same issue.  They don’t walk down the street yelling it at people.  I have no problem with people coming out.  IF that is what’s right for them, then cool.  But to tell people they are less than honorable because for what ever reason it is they choose not to share it with the world that they are bad people that is just wrong.  We all have to make our lives best for ourselves.  Cause in the end we are the ones that have to live with it.  If someone chooses to live in the closet their whole life, it’s their choice.  And no one elses.  It sounds like everyone is unhappy living in the closet.  Did you guys ever think that some people would prefer that.  That is how they want to live.  Because what a person does in his or her bedroom is really no one fucking business.  You go to work, you obey the law you pay your taxes overall you are a good citizen who gives a shit who I sleep with at night.  Some people want everyone out cause it will make thier lives easier?  I got news for you, after this one is taken care of, there will be another one to take it’s place.  That is what life is about.  Overcoming things. I have seen a lot of posts on here.  Some in here said that if there was a pill they could take and not be gay they would take it.  That doesn’t make them a bad person.  It doesn’t make them a bad gay person.  It makes them, them.  And it is their choice.  If it is true that people don’t choose this lifestyle and I guess that is still under debate then they should at least have one choice and that is how to live their own life.  I know a lot of you have accepted you being gay.  And some live with it.  Some are even happy to be that way.  But there are others that would rather not.  And you have to respect their wishes as well.  And if you don’t then you are no better than the people you condemn on a daily basis. Of coasre this is just my opinion.  I could be wrong. Derek

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I’m sure money is a concern.  Still, I don’t have the right to judge how another chooses to live his life.  And I agree that it’d be a healthier world if gay teens had more positive role models.  Slowly, I feel this is happening.  Maybe not fast enough for some, but it is happening.  Ellen DeGeneres’ sitcom may have been cancelled, but the factors for its cancellation are many…the last season WAS pretty scattershot.  The end of the show, however, was not the end of her career.  Maybe some of you are blessed with the ability to read minds, but I have no way of knowing another person’s motives for coming out or staying closeted; for that reason, I still maintain that the athlete in question should come out at his own pace, in his own way, for his own reasons. djigoo "Jockbud 4 Stud" <jockbud4s…@aol.com> wrote in message news:20010526103647.25350.00001448@ng-ma1.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> You’d rather let professional athletes make the decision to come out on their > own? Please. And what century would that be do you suppose? > Lets face it. Gay rights has come a long way. We may still have a long way to > go but the days where one had to fear for one’s life because of being outed is > long gone. The real fear plaguing closeted athletes, movie stars, politicians > and other public figures isn’t so much a matter of losing dignity as has been > discussed, It’s about losing MONEY. Plain and simple. All of these people make > ridiculous amounts of money. And none of them wants to risk that wonderful cash > flow to allow society to realize that not all gays are the leather wearing, > promiscuous, drag queens that proliferate gay parades and that the media keeps > photographing in earnest to convince the world that we are a people interested > in nothing more than drugs, sex and molesting their children. > If we’re going to wait for these closeted and highly powerful people to stop > making money in favor of enriching humanity I think we can pretty much forget > that. Did Ellen DeGeneres get much more thanks than a cancelled show for coming > out? If gay teens had more public figures as gay role models there’d be a heck > of a lot less teen suicides in this country – or the world for that matter. But > no, lets let gay people who agree to live their lives in front of the media lie > about their lives, lets let them push gay rights back hundreds of years by > telling phoney stories about who they’re dating or screwing or marrying rather > than be honest about who they are – we wouldn’t want them to actually have to > live with the consequences of being a public figure would we??? Whats another > dead teenager anyway?

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You’d rather let professional athletes make the decision to come out on their own? Please. And what century would that be do you suppose? Lets face it. Gay rights has come a long way. We may still have a long way to go but the days where one had to fear for one’s life because of being outed is long gone. The real fear plaguing closeted athletes, movie stars, politicians and other public figures isn’t so much a matter of losing dignity as has been discussed, It’s about losing MONEY. Plain and simple. All of these people make ridiculous amounts of money. And none of them wants to risk that wonderful cash flow to allow society to realize that not all gays are the leather wearing, promiscuous, drag queens that proliferate gay parades and that the media keeps photographing in earnest to convince the world that we are a people interested in nothing more than drugs, sex and molesting their children. If we’re going to wait for these closeted and highly powerful people to stop making money in favor of enriching humanity I think we can pretty much forget that. Did Ellen DeGeneres get much more thanks than a cancelled show for coming out? If gay teens had more public figures as gay role models there’d be a heck of a lot less teen suicides in this country – or the world for that matter. But no, lets let gay people who agree to live their lives in front of the media lie about their lives, lets let them push gay rights back hundreds of years by telling phoney stories about who they’re dating or screwing or marrying rather than be honest about who they are – we wouldn’t want them to actually have to live with the consequences of being a public figure would we??? Whats another dead teenager anyway?

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