Act Acting » Career Acting » How Good Parents Can Mess Up Your Life In Modern American Society

How Good Parents Can Mess Up Your Life In Modern American Society

Question:

a very, very, very wise perspective.  Good luck to you. Life is indeed the best teacher we have.  Unfortunately, it kills its students.

Response:

<snip : Tillie, your response has weighed rather heavily on my mind lately.  HOW : would I raise kids for today’s world?  Every "solution" I come up with : has flaws I really don’t like.  Here’s a few possible solutions: <snip 1. teach them to respond to questions of their claims… 2. teach them to ignore questions of their claims made… if they follow john’s example, they’ll choose 2… — alan madsen – new york, n.y.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I really don’t want to remain single all my life.  In fact, I love kids and dearly want to get married to have them some day.  The problem with having pleasant, supportive parents who you can talk to and be friends with (and who are friends with each other, too) is that it doesn’t prepare one for the Modern American World Of Dating.  That is, I’ve never met so many "wounded" people until I started dating and realizing that an awful lot of people come from dysfunctional families, abusive moms or dads, incest, insecurity because their parents were divorced, outright crazies, on medications, etc. I understand exactly what you are saying…my husband and I often ponder "Who the heck are *our* kids gonna marry??" Tillie

Tillie, your response has weighed rather heavily on my mind lately.  HOW would I raise kids for today’s world?  Every "solution" I come up with has flaws I really don’t like.  Here’s a few possible solutions:   1.) Isolate kids from the bad things in the world so they develope       strong healthy personalities in a completely supportive and       nurturing environment.  (The problem is that most of their later       life they’ll be dealing in a fairly unsupportive, brutally selfish       world in work, socializing, and even their own relationships.       That is, this sets the kids up for very painful future lessons       because you didn’t prepare them.)   2.) Raise your kids to be mostly suspicious of those around them, to       expect two-faced behavior where people really do act in pretty much       their own self interests and only act nice to others when it’s       socially expected or at no potential loss to one self.  (The       problem here is that you end up creating some really vicious       people.  Yea, they’ll survive — in fact, they’ll probably thrive;       but do I really want to help create such a mercenary world?  (No.))   3.) Somehow trying to blend the two philosophies above (the problem       is that many times these are two diametrically opposed approaches       and when the tough decisions between the two approaches appear,       I will tend to take 1 over 2 — won’t I just be fooling myself?) What ideas have you and your hubby come up with in this reguard?   – John Cooley "Being a divorced father shouldn’t mean you can’t know your own children."  The Fathers Group meets in Framingham, Massachusetts on the 2nd Tuesday  of every month.  Our address, etc.:  The Fathers Group, 908 Concord St.,  Framingham, MA  01701  phone (508) 879-4585.  Feel free to join us!

Response:

: The world’s a pretty ugly place; an awful lot of people operate in : such a way as to clearly say "what’s in this for *me*?"  People will : gladly say and/or commit to anything, but, once the going gets tough, : they’re gone!  I’ve seen people set up conflicts that seriously hurt : some of those involved — just because they were bored.  I’ve seen : people equate "I have a different view" with the phrase "I am your : enemy."    It’s taken some time to get used to this Brave New World, : but I think I’ve learned enough to not take things on face value with : anyone other than my direct family. So marry someone who sees life in the same way.  If your contention is really that you’re the only one who had a normal upbringing, then there’s something wrong with you view of the world (because that’s just silly). I do understand what you’re talking about, though.  I think I grew up in both worlds, I had this incredibly normal family up until the time I was eighteen and I couldn’t understand all of the dysfunctions I saw on the Oprah show (I’d look at it as a kind of entertainment when I paid attention at all).  And then my mother died in a very tragic situation which I still have a hard time talking about and I got to see my Norman Rockwell family bust apart during the next couple of years.  Now I understand the people on the Oprah show, even if I never made it onto the podium.  Seem to have emerged from it pretty well ten years later, but with a healthy appreciation for how family dynamics can ruin people’s lives. Anyway, here’s the point I wanted to make.  If you had a good family you start out with a tremendous advantage, but your goal should be to find someone you like to create the family you want.  You have total freedom here, and I think most people have a real hunger for the kinds of families which some people think have gone out of style.  I don’t think they have, I think people are pulled in so many directions they just don’t have that quiet space to figure out what they really want. So set your own example.  Be the strong personality who can create that safe space out of which mutual love and respect comes.  That’s not something which happens because two people come together, it’s something two people build.  It can be quite wonderful.   Anyway that’s my conclusion, I think too many people get duped because there is a lot out there which tells people that this isn’t attainable.  I don’t believe it, and wonder if you’re just running away from this challenge. Not that I’d know, of course.  Just remember times when I’ve made similar arguments, and I’ve come to appreciate how much the bottem line was really about my not being ready at the time.

Response:

I think that’s the problem with the quick-fix relationship.  If you find someone you want a relationship with, you want a whole relationship, not just a band aid.  If you’re looking for a Romance Lite(TM), how can you blame that other person for being flawed or dysfuctional, meaning, what then does it matter?  It’s like when I was younger and I felt conflicted over funerals.  I’d never been to one. I didn’t want the first funeral I went to to be that of my parents or the people dearest to me, but I also felt it’d be disrepectful to go to the funeral of someone I cared less about simply for ‘practice.’ If I’m not ready for the RealThingRomance, then I wouldn’t feel entitled to enter the life of a quality partner.  Without quality, I don’t want any part of it…  Is this too muddy?

Wow, Faux, you must have been one intense girl to ask to the prom.  I bet the conversation when like this:   guy: "Err… ah….   Faux, would you like to go to the Prom         with me?"  Faux: "Only if you’ll completely devote your entire life to me         in a lifelong monogamous relationship… otherwise you’re         just toying with me…"   guy: "Well, we are just in high school and this is just a dance…"  Faux: "I want the REALTHINGROMANCE or nothing at all!  Everything         else is just wasting my & your time!"   guy: "OK, if that’s the way you feel….  I’ll ask Alice Johnson         from my 2 period class if she’d want to go to the Prom with me."  Faux: "That’s fine with me.  I don’t need anyone in my life to make         me happy anyway.  Bye." :^)      - John Cooley "Being a divorced father shouldn’t mean you can’t know your own children."  The Fathers Group meets in Framingham, Massachusetts on the 2nd Tuesday  of every month.  Our address, etc.:  The Fathers Group, 908 Concord St.,  Framingham, MA  01701  phone (508) 879-4585.  Feel free to join us!

Response:

: (snip) : Yo…. : I think that a more likely explanation is that John : is simply ignoring on obvious nutcase. : Cheers! ignoring for such reasons i can easily see as i do so myself… but john has been dishonest where he did not need to be and he is the one who made the claim from which these questions flow (to me, knowing me)… he has interest in now and fathers-rights, and (obiviously) an interest in avoiding questions that he does not wish to see discussed… this pointedly illustrates his merit, and the merit of fathers-rights as he claims them to be… i am neither surprized by his tack, nor by the means used in his support… what i am surprized at is the foolishness that has lead him to the need to do so… those who regularly post here know the consequences that come from what one writes and are usually more careful (especially those in prime support)… — alan madsen – new york, n.y.

Response:

(snip) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -: Spunk, I grew up with the same message of "life is not fair." <snip and concluded that the best way to meet opposition is denial and dishonesty…? for 2 weeks now, john cooley – fathers-rights advocate – has been avoided responding to questions flowing from his charge that n.o.w. is anti-family, amongst which there is one seeking to examine the money motive of fathers-rights activists… — alan madsen – new york, n.y.

Yo…. I think that a more likely explanation is that John is simply ignoring on obvious nutcase. Cheers! Ron

Response:

<<John sounds pretty functional to me.  Your response sounds like no more than sour grapes…. RonIncredible. Some guy named John says that he had a "normal"

childhood, and it sparks a flame war! only in alt.support.divorce

Response:

<<John sounds pretty functional to me.  Your response sounds like no more than sour grapes…. Ron well, Ron you can think what you want….  but I still think, and obviously others agree, that John is not the dysfunctional-free person he claims.  Think about it!!!  How can he be if he thinks EVERYONE ELSE IS!! What kind of family teaches their child that?  The world isn’t perfect, never has been.  But MY MOTHER taught me that early on.  "Mom thats not fair!" I would cry.  "Honey, life’s not fair!"  A truly functional family prepares their young for life in the real world.  To have relationships with others outside the family and make it work.  I think John is afraid of being shown how imperfect he is, but his mommy and daddy tell him he’s wonderful so why should he meet others who show him he isn’t??? Just MHO of course

Response:

: John sounds pretty functional to me.  Your response sounds like no : more than sour grapes…. : : Ron : : well, Ron you can think what you want….  but I still think, and : obviously others agree, that John is not the dysfunctional-free person he : claims.  Think about it!!!  How can he be if he thinks EVERYONE ELSE IS!! : What kind of family teaches their child that?  The world isn’t perfect, : never has been.  But MY MOTHER taught me that early on.  "Mom thats not : fair!" I would cry.  "Honey, life’s not fair!"  A truly functional family : prepares their young for life in the real world.  To have relationships : with others outside the family and make it work.  I think John is afraid : of being shown how imperfect he is, but his mommy and daddy tell him he’s : wonderful so why should he meet others who show him he isn’t??? : Spunk, I grew up with the same message of "life is not fair." <snip and concluded that the best way to meet opposition is denial and dishonesty…? for 2 weeks now, john cooley – fathers-rights advocate – has been avoided responding to questions flowing from his charge that n.o.w. is anti-family, amongst which there is one seeking to examine the money motive of fathers-rights activists… — alan madsen – new york, n.y.

Response:

<sorry to snip such an eloquent post – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Not my business, but I’m curious:  with an example of lifelong marital happiness in your parents, why have you chosen to remain single? I really don’t want to remain single all my life.  In fact, I love kids and dearly want to get married to have them some day.  The problem with having pleasant, supportive parents who you can talk to and be friends with (and who are friends with each other, too) is that it doesn’t prepare one for the Modern American World Of Dating.  That is, I’ve never met so many "wounded" people until I started dating and realizing that an awful lot of people come from dysfunctional families, abusive moms or dads, incest, insecurity because their parents were divorced, outright crazies, on medications, etc.

I understand exactly what you are saying…my husband and I often ponder "Who the heck are *our* kids gonna marry??" Regards, Tillie

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <<John sounds pretty functional to me.  Your response sounds like no more than sour grapes…. Ron well, Ron you can think what you want….  but I still think, and obviously others agree, that John is not the dysfunctional-free person he claims.  Think about it!!!  How can he be if he thinks EVERYONE ELSE IS!! What kind of family teaches their child that?  The world isn’t perfect, never has been.  But MY MOTHER taught me that early on.  "Mom thats not fair!" I would cry.  "Honey, life’s not fair!"  A truly functional family prepares their young for life in the real world.  To have relationships with others outside the family and make it work.  I think John is afraid of being shown how imperfect he is, but his mommy and daddy tell him he’s wonderful so why should he meet others who show him he isn’t???

Spunk, I grew up with the same message of "life is not fair."  Again, I’m not saying I lived in a Shangra-La, but that there were real solid values I saw working in day to day life being the son of a fighter pilot in the Air Force.  We lived on base housing (which meant fairly good housing that everyone had the same — much like modern developments), we had universal health care, everyone was paid based on rank, and if one did *any* crimes they had to face a much harsher military justice system.  As a result, we didn’t have problematic poverty, nor deeply dysfunctional alchoholism, nor big time abusive behavior within the families simply because if you did, everyone lived so close to everyone, it would be detected and either "cured" or they were out of the Air Force.  The officers creed is "You do not lie, cheat, or steal." and people were very serious about this.  This all worked together to create an environment that was VERY safe and nurturing for kids.  I could leave for the day to go play as a 6 year old and my parents wouldn’t be worried. (Today if Jr been out of sight for 5 minutes it’s "Oh, my God, he’s been abducted — CALL THE POLICE!!!!!")  This wasn’t just my family acting trustworthy, etc. — it was all our friends and neighbors, too.  I’m not saying in the Air Force back then that everyone just loved everyone. No, not hardly.  It’s just that at a minimum you respected each other and you were very seriously expected to keep your word and behave in a respectable manner — or you were simply booted out.  As a kid growing up with these strong values, I expected others to be the same way. Instead what I found is that a few people share my values; but an awful lot of people don’t (but say they do and then very creatively come up with excuses when their actions betray their words.)  It’s taken some time to learn this.   – John Cooley "Being a divorced father shouldn’t mean you can’t know your own children."  The Fathers Group meets in Framingham, Massachusetts on the 2nd Tuesday  of every month.  Our address, etc.:  The Fathers Group, 908 Concord St.,  Framingham, MA  01701  phone (508) 879-4585.  Feel free to join us!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<<John sounds pretty functional to me.  Your response sounds like no more than sour grapes…. Ron well, Ron you can think what you want….  but I still think, and obviously others agree, that John is not the dysfunctional-free person he claims.  Think about it!!!  How can he be if he thinks EVERYONE ELSE IS!! What kind of family teaches their child that?  The world isn’t perfect, never has been.  But MY MOTHER taught me that early on.  "Mom thats not fair!" I would cry.  "Honey, life’s not fair!"  A truly functional family prepares their young for life in the real world.  To have relationships with others outside the family and make it work.  I think John is afraid of being shown how imperfect he is, but his mommy and daddy tell him he’s wonderful so why should he meet others who show him he isn’t??? Just MHO of course

Damn!  <g  You’re really _fond_ of those sour grapes, aren’t you? Ron

Response:

John how wonderful a  family could you have had if you were so unaware of reality?  Or if it makes you soooo judgemental that everyone else but YOU is dysfunctional?  Puhhhhleeez

Response:

John then Ron wrote about: Your statement about the high percentage of people who equate "I have a different opinion" with "you are my enemy" is right on the mark.  And you only have to follow this ng for a while to see it…

This is interesting for me, because I am at the point of wondering if this isn’t the way I want to go on some, sufficiently important issues–"You have a different view? You are my enemy." All around me I see meaning frustrated and relegated to the trash heap by today’s confused distortion of relativism, whereby ethical truths of an individual or group are relative to the time of day. Truth and good seem to be the servants of personal convenience. Is this for me? Let’s say that I encounter someone who is advocating schemes to help women (for example) ensure sole custody of their children and to maximize financial support regardless of the financial state of the other parent. After I argue for a sufficiently long period of time, I discover that there is no way to resolve their stance with my support for presumptive joint custody. What is this person to me? Someone who is sexist. Someone who is working to hurt people. Someone who could have been the advisor that would have let my son’s mom make me an NCP. Yes, these are "just" different views. But perhaps this person deserves to be my enemy. While I can’t claim divine knowledge of what is right and best for the children and the adults involved in custody cases, I can claim fairly solid knowledge of what I believe is right. I think that this might be enough. David

Response:

Yo, John…. <g  I *loved* this post, probably because I can relate, having grown up in a similarly well-functioning family.  Sometime around college I began to realize that some of my friends’ families were absolutely _weird_ by the standards I was used to. Ron

Yea, I just wanted to relate this so people don’t think that having a happy & loving & supportive family ensures future happiness for kids. In many ways, it’s a royal head fuck.  (Please excuse the language; but in this case I think it’s appropriate — it best describes the situation and I’m not directing this obscenity *at* anyone.)  That is, if you’re used to people acting mostly honorably & with integrity for the first twentysomething years of your life — it makes you completely unprepared for those people who had the "advantages" of manipulative parents, weasily neighbors, psychologically unstable siblings & friends.  I’m NOT saying I grew up in some sort of family Shangra-La or that kids should be happy to be in dysfunctional families; I’m just saying that growing up without being exposed to really underhanded & deceitful behavior on the behalf of your friends/neighbors/parents really leaves you vulnerable for the games these people play on you & others when you first encounter the "real" world.   Just check out these newsgroups — it’s *full* of people who have all sorts of relationship stories where generally it boils down to either somebody doesn’t respect the people around them or they don’t even respect themselves.  A lot of people lie, marry under false pretenses, steal, abuse the courts and/or their kids, and just act in a "What’s In It For *Me*???" approach to the people they supposedly once "loved" or supposedly claim to still "love".  It’s screwy world out there and raising kids to not expect truely underhanded behavior from people close to them can be a set up for a future fall.  I’m not exactly sure how I’d solve this problem, though, because I don’t think I’d want to raise kids to be extremely suspicious of everyone as their base operating assumption either…   – John Cooley "Being a divorced father shouldn’t mean you can’t know your own children."  The Fathers Group meets in Framingham, Massachusetts on the 2nd Tuesday  of every month.  Our address, etc.:  The Fathers Group, 908 Concord St.,  Framingham, MA  01701  phone (508) 879-4585.  Feel free to join us!

Response:

John how wonderful a  family could you have had if you were so unaware of reality?  Or if it makes you soooo judgemental that everyone else but YOU is dysfunctional?  Puhhhhleeez

Yo, Spunk… John sounds pretty functional to me.  Your response sounds like no more than sour grapes…. Ron

Response:

Yo, John…. <g  I *loved* this post, probably because I can relate, having grown up in a similarly well-functioning family.  Sometime around college I began to realize that some of my friends’ families were absolutely _weird_ by the standards I was used to. Ron

PS… The only real exception I can take to the advice you’ve given is this "get a woman/get a man" stuff that you’ve been dishing out as a partial remedy for the problems associated with the end of a long-term relationship.  It’s the wrong approach for most people IMHO, and can even be hazardous in some situations…  Most of the other stuff that people here have been complaining about (eg. the hair length "controversy") is no more than personal preference on your part, clearly labeled as such.  Your statement about the high percentage of people who equate "I have a different opinion" with "you are my enemy" is right on the mark.  And you only have to follow this ng for a while to see it… Ron

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Not my business, but I’m curious:  with an example of lifelong marital happiness in your parents, why have you chosen to remain single? I really don’t want to remain single all my life.  In fact, I love kids and dearly want to get married to have them some day.  The problem with having pleasant, supportive parents who you can talk to and be friends with (and who are friends with each other, too) is that it doesn’t prepare one for the Modern American World Of Dating.  That is, I’ve never met so many "wounded" people until I started dating and realizing that an awful lot of people come from dysfunctional families, abusive moms or dads, incest, insecurity because their parents were divorced, outright crazies, on medications, etc.  I really did live in a sort of Brady Bunch type of family where I & my brothers grew up hitting each other (as brothers do) and supporting each other (as brothers do.)  My mum pretty much smothers us all with unconditional love, my dad provides more business thinking along with his love.  My parents were/are very socially active, and they have had their arguements, but they’ve *always* been committed to each other through thick & thin.  I grew up never seeing parents cheating on each other or even suspicious of such activities. I grew up with a father who liked cooking, cleaning, & doing the laundry because it was relaxing after a stressful day flying fighter jets.  I grew up with a mother who started her own successful fabric business that she later sold ten years after founding it  – this was after her playing the proper role of officer’s wife for 23 years (doing all sorts of charity related things) to help dad’s career.  I’ve seen my parents always read the Sunday papers and then we’d all discuss what we read. We didn’t all agree, but that was just fuel for a good discussion. Both my parents have been civic leaders, actively working to make their town a better place to live. So when I’d get in a relationship, I’m used to people speaking their honest ideas and backing them with reasoning.  I’m used to people having self-esteem and that their word is worth something.  I’m used to people being OK with disagreeing yet respecting another’s viewpoint. I’m used to ethical behavior and people acting according to the Golden Rule.  And, boy, did that set me up for a fall! The world’s a pretty ugly place; an awful lot of people operate in such a way as to clearly say "what’s in this for *me*?"  People will gladly say and/or commit to anything, but, once the going gets tough, they’re gone!  I’ve seen people set up conflicts that seriously hurt some of those involved — just because they were bored.  I’ve seen people equate "I have a different view" with the phrase "I am your enemy."    It’s taken some time to get used to this Brave New World, but I think I’ve learned enough to not take things on face value with anyone other than my direct family.  - John Cooley "Being a divorced father shouldn’t mean you can’t know your own children." The Fathers Group meets in Framingham, Massachusetts on the 2nd Tuesday of every month.  Our address, etc.:  The Fathers Group, 908 Concord St., Framingham, MA  01701  phone (508) 879-4585.  Feel free to join us!

Yo, John…. <g  I *loved* this post, probably because I can relate, having grown up in a similarly well-functioning family.  Sometime around college I began to realize that some of my friends’ families were absolutely _weird_ by the standards I was used to. Ron

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Am I generalizing and what does your hair look like, John? of hair, short or long!!!) Donna, since it seems to be important to you, I’m 6′3", 240 lbs, with a *full* head of hair (in runs in my family), a very good income, I enjoy singing & am generally an upbeat guy (when not discussing divorce practice & how it’s destroying our society), grew up with two very loving parents who are also good friends I can talk openly with, I like dancing, I’m a light drinker (socially), don’t smoke, no drugs, never been married, never had kids, very socially active.  I also like foreign films, writing, and occassionally going hiking.  I love kids and tend to have a lot of fun with them.  Most of my life I’ve had a steady girlfriend while in long term relationships.  I’m not shy; I’m very socialble & outgoing.  I tend to enjoy life more than dred it. Not my business, but I’m curious:  with an example of lifelong marital happiness in your parents, why have you chosen to remain single?

I really don’t want to remain single all my life.  In fact, I love kids and dearly want to get married to have them some day.  The problem with having pleasant, supportive parents who you can talk to and be friends with (and who are friends with each other, too) is that it doesn’t prepare one for the Modern American World Of Dating.  That is, I’ve never met so many "wounded" people until I started dating and realizing that an awful lot of people come from dysfunctional families, abusive moms or dads, incest, insecurity because their parents were divorced, outright crazies, on medications, etc.  I really did live in a sort of Brady Bunch type of family where I & my brothers grew up hitting each other (as brothers do) and supporting each other (as brothers do.)  My mum pretty much smothers us all with unconditional love, my dad provides more business thinking along with his love.  My parents were/are very socially active, and they have had their arguements, but they’ve *always* been committed to each other through thick & thin.  I grew up never seeing parents cheating on each other or even suspicious of such activities. I grew up with a father who liked cooking, cleaning, & doing the laundry because it was relaxing after a stressful day flying fighter jets.  I grew up with a mother who started her own successful fabric business that she later sold ten years after founding it  – this was after her playing the proper role of officer’s wife for 23 years (doing all sorts of charity related things) to help dad’s career.  I’ve seen my parents always read the Sunday papers and then we’d all discuss what we read. We didn’t all agree, but that was just fuel for a good discussion. Both my parents have been civic leaders, actively working to make their town a better place to live. So when I’d get in a relationship, I’m used to people speaking their honest ideas and backing them with reasoning.  I’m used to people having self-esteem and that their word is worth something.  I’m used to people being OK with disagreeing yet respecting another’s viewpoint. I’m used to ethical behavior and people acting according to the Golden Rule.  And, boy, did that set me up for a fall! The world’s a pretty ugly place; an awful lot of people operate in such a way as to clearly say "what’s in this for *me*?"  People will gladly say and/or commit to anything, but, once the going gets tough, they’re gone!  I’ve seen people set up conflicts that seriously hurt some of those involved — just because they were bored.  I’ve seen people equate "I have a different view" with the phrase "I am your enemy."    It’s taken some time to get used to this Brave New World, but I think I’ve learned enough to not take things on face value with anyone other than my direct family.   – John Cooley "Being a divorced father shouldn’t mean you can’t know your own children."  The Fathers Group meets in Framingham, Massachusetts on the 2nd Tuesday  of every month.  Our address, etc.:  The Fathers Group, 908 Concord St.,  Framingham, MA  01701  phone (508) 879-4585.  Feel free to join us!

Response:

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